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So, I take it Your God Killed Jesus

OrphanSlug said:
Forget it, there is more source of morality in reading the script for a porn movie than reading the Bible.

There is no logic, no moral teaching, no showing of humanity from the Christian concept of God becoming man in order to sacrifice himself for all of us (that was not even original story in the first place.)

But let me help you out, cause you have a few things wrong.

The whole thing here is God became man via a spirit who found a virgin as temporary housing, then in a grand effort to show atonement he killed himself as a gesture of good will to deal with people's broken relationship with God.

Now all of this was necessary because of a terrible and horrific chain of events, including God going on a murder spree or two, all because a woman who was made from the rib of a man was convinced by a talking snake to eat a piece of fruit from a magical tree.

All of the subsequent killing, sacrifices, destruction and lunacy, acts of madness and hatred (much of which was done by God's various temper tantrums) gets its traces all the way back to an apple.

You clear now?
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You need to understand the concept of parable and allegory if you want to understand the creation myth in Genesis. If you do understand it, the story is about learning to call things good or evil and how that totally screwed up mankind forever. If you don't understand it, if you take it literally then yeah, it's about a snake and an apple..
 
Grand Mal said:
You need to understand the concept of parable and allegory if you want to understand the creation myth in Genesis. If you do understand it, the story is about learning to call things good or evil and how that totally screwed up mankind forever. If you don't understand it, if you take it literally then yeah, it's about a snake and an apple..
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Oh FFS, you guys need to huddle up on this and come up with as many excuses as possible for why Biblical text is what it is.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Oh FFS, you guys need to huddle up on this and come up with as many excuses as possible for why Biblical text is what it is.
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No I bloody well do not. I understand the story already.
 
calamity said:
As someone who actually liked the guy they called Jesus, I'm a little pissed that this god had him murdered. Oh, god had Jesus killed all right. Remember, god sent the boy here to die...or so we are led to believe. So, if that is true, then god killed that boy dead.

I ask. Why?

Isn't it kind of sick to worship a god who murders his own son in front of an entire town? And, what was the point of it anyway? Did he do it just to prove he could? None of this crucifixion myth makes sense.

Is it not much more reasonable to believe that Jesus, the man, stirred enough animus that the locals formed a mob to take him out? No god. Just people doing what they do best, overreacting with violence.
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My understanding is part of the Christian God of Abraham's Divine Plan ( John 3:16) was for his son to be killed/murdered to save the lost souls of flawed, sinful human beings. Being Omnipotent, this God didn't have to take this route; he/she/it could have simply opted to simply forgive without putting his own son through such a horrible, painful, unnecessary death. That this mode of death was wilfully chosen tells me the God of Abraham isn't truly "loving, kind, or truly forgiving". IMO, a loving God would simply have forgiven without perpetrating all of the horrific deeds/acts the Biblical scriptures attribute to this particular God. I find the killing/murder of all the the first borns ( innocent little babies ), to be particularly appalling and extremely disturbing, as well as sending 42 bears to maul children to death, simply for mocking a bald man. That isn't "just or fair" by any any rational individual's thought processes. It's massive overkill, pure and simple.
 
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Logician Man said:
My understanding is part of the Christian God of Abraham's Divine Plan ( John 3:16) was for his son to be killed/murdered to save the lost souls of flawed, sinful human beings. Being Omnipotent, this God didn't have to take this route; he/she/it could have simply opted to simply forgive without putting his own son through such a horrible, painful, unnecessary death. That this mode of death was wilfully chosen tells me the God of Abraham isn't truly "loving, kind, or truly forgiving". IMO, a loving God would simply have forgiven without perpetrating all of the horrific deeds/acts the Biblical scriptures attribute to this particular God. I find the killing/murder of all the the first borns ( innocent little babies ), to be particularly appalling and extremely disturbing, as well as sending 42 bears to maul children to death, simply for mocking a bald man. That isn't "just or fair" by any any rational individual's thought processes. It's massive overkill, pure and simple.
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Didn't he "harden" pharaoh's heart to ensure the slaughter would commence? Of course, no one in the death cult questions why he didn't soften it.
 
calamity said:
Didn't he "harden" pharaoh's heart to ensure the slaughter would commence? Of course, no one in the death cult questions why he didn't soften it.
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Per biblical scripture, all human beings are " created in God's image." Evidently, this particular God must have a hardened heart.
 
calamity said:
Didn't he "harden" pharaoh's heart to ensure the slaughter would commence? Of course, no one in the death cult questions why he didn't soften it.
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No, it was merely a prophecy, since Jehovah can read a person's heart to see what kind of person they are...

"Then Jehovah said to Moses: “After you have returned to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have empowered you to do. But I will allow his heart to become obstinate, and he will not send the people away." Exodus 4:21

Pharaoh was responsible for hardening his own heart...

"When Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and he refused to listen to them, just as Jehovah had said." Exodus 8:15
 
calamity said:
As someone who actually liked the guy they called Jesus, I'm a little pissed that this god had him murdered. Oh, god had Jesus killed all right. Remember, god sent the boy here to die...or so we are led to believe. So, if that is true, then god killed that boy dead.

I ask. Why?

Isn't it kind of sick to worship a god who murders his own son in front of an entire town? And, what was the point of it anyway? Did he do it just to prove he could? None of this crucifixion myth makes sense.

Is it not much more reasonable to believe that Jesus, the man, stirred enough animus that the locals formed a mob to take him out? No god. Just people doing what they do best, overreacting with violence.
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Theology is not your strong suit. But the "why", like everything "Christian" is a matter of debate. And debate. And debate. And debate.

However, that point may be where we differ, but your question pretty much destroys the "god" of the old testament, who according to modern interpretations created enemies of Zion so the Hebrews could wage war. Then we have the "god" who sends plagues like COVID-9 killing millions of people who were so unlucky to be born in a region where the Hebrews were, and there is that flood business.

So we have to start ANY discussion about Jesus from the perspective of his reason for being by throwing out all modern interpretations of those tales, seeing them for what they are.
The Bible is NOT a book, it is a library of stories written by Hebrews as part of oral tradition. There never was an "Adam & Eve", the story is a fiction designed to illustrate God's role through the eyes of a primitive understanding. There never was a whale or Jonah, the story is a version of the lesson learned by trying to defy GOD.....the previous version it was "Jacob" who "wrestled with God all night" and forever walked with a limp. Most independent scholars agree the tale is an allegory; one told while the Jews were wandering in the desert...and what better way to get the attention of children than a story about a fish so big it could swallow a man.

So to begin to answer your question, we have to throw out the modern interpretation...and then put it all in context of the time.


BTW, the ONLY character named in the bible that can be proven existed is Pontius Pilate. And, the world's best archaeologists agree that sufficient evidence exists that they are sure Jesus existed at the time claimed, and that He was likely born in May based on astronomical proof of a meteor (Giant Star?) at that time.

So before we turn the first page we have been outright lied to - twice.
 
Logician Man said:
Or maybe better stated, "honored the concept of God", as the existence of any Gods has never been proven to be factual, for the reason you stated.
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Which, if you think about it, defeats the purpose of being God.

For some, myself included, its not a matter of "coming to God" but being left with no other reasonable explanation for what happened. My life should have ended 30 plus years ago as I stood on a balcony in Hollywood Florida preparing to jump.

..,and I clearly heard/felt the voice of God say "you'd probably **** that up too."

I have told that story to a hundred or more theologians over the years, and what's left is whether God would say "****" to get my attention while in a beastial state of mind.

I have my opinion and have been clean and sober 33 years by doing what He tells me
 
Fearandloathing said:
Which, if you think about it, defeats the purpose of being God.

For some, myself included, its not a matter of "coming to God" but being left with no other reasonable explanation for what happened. My life should have ended 30 plus years ago as I stood on a balcony in Hollywood Florida preparing to jump.

..,and I clearly heard/felt the voice of God say "you'd probably **** that up too."

I have told that story to a hundred or more theologians over the years, and what's left is whether God would say "****" to get my attention while in a beastial state of mind.

I have my opinion and have been clean and sober 33 years by doing what He tells me
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Personal testimony is meaningless in a debate forum where meeting Burden of Proof is paramount.
 
Fearandloathing said:
That's the only "evidence" you're ever going to get.

That's why they call it faith,
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Oh, I'm sure some will state the holy text, in and of itself, is 'evidence', but most certainly there will no 'proof' presented, as indeed matters of religion are 'faith' based.
 
Fearandloathing said:
That's the only "evidence" you're ever going to get.

That's why they call it faith,
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And faith is fine, for personal spirituality. IMO, it's when the personal belief starts trickling into law when problems begin.
 
Elvira said:
I'll show you yours right now...

God cannot die...

"Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." Habakkuk 1:12
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:rolleyes:


But, He is not dead!

Your argument is so juvenile.





God cannot be tempted...it is unimaginable that God could sin and be disloyal to Himself...

"Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil." Matthew 4:1
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HELLO? EXCUSE ME?

Are you saying Jesus succumbed to temptation?
Are you saying.................................. JESUS SINNED?
Is that what your NWT says?

FYI, to be tempted by the devil does not equate to succumbing to that temptation.






Jesus could have been disloyal but remained faithful, saying...

“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Matthew 4:10
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....and, yet you proclaimed in another thread :


Jesus is my authority...I am on Jesus's side, the side of truth, for his kingdom and his kingdom only...he stated his neutral position to the Roman authorities when Pontius Pilate asked Jesus...

GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

It is beyond me why anyone would want to go to hell by believing in such obvious falsehoods. Some people disbelieve, I think, because they want to live immoral lives. They want to do things that seemingly give them immediate pleasure. Why on earth would someone say no to those things and still...
debatepolitics.com debatepolitics.com


What about the Authority of God? What about the Kingdom of God? :)


Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


Mark 1:14-15Jesus Announces the Good News
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”




So - this goes back right at you - like another pie to your face!


“Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Matthew 4:10


You should understand the verses that you love to throw around.

Not only are you ending up practicing idolatry on Jesus (He's become your golden calf)..................
............................... but you're also giving a verse that supports the fact that JESUS and GOD are One and the Same!




You've lost it, Elvira! You don't even realize what you're actually saying anymore.
Lol - you're looking so pathetic trying to uphold the false teachings that has been fed to you!

You can't win over the Scriptures.
 
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Elvira said:
No, it was merely a prophecy, since Jehovah can read a person's heart to see what kind of person they are...

"Then Jehovah said to Moses: “After you have returned to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have empowered you to do. But I will allow his heart to become obstinate, and he will not send the people away." Exodus 4:21

Pharaoh was responsible for hardening his own heart...

"When Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and he refused to listen to them, just as Jehovah had said." Exodus 8:15
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So knowing the death and destruction to follow, he "allowed it to happen". Same difference.
 
calamity said:
Shits and giggles. Stirring up animus is fun, plus it garners a lot of attention. Who knows; maybe if you do a good enough job of it, some foolish zealots will even name a religion after you..
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Your response is so irrational.

What's the point of having a religion named after you when you're dead, and can't even experience the joy of knowing a religion
has been named after you? :LOL:




Furthermore, you did not see this part?
Here - let me enlarge the font a bit. Let me add color to it too, just to make sure you see it.


And you're forgetting one thing: how can a mere man raise up the dead and heal the sick and
perform other miracles such as exorcism.

Why were the demons scared of Him?

That's what made Him popular: His miracles!


Lol. How can you reasonably explain that!
 
calamity said:
Ok, let's take this a little further, looking at it from all angles, fiction, non-fiction, myth, fact, godly intervention, you name it.

There was a man baptized by John named Jesus. This was probably not his name, but it's likely close enough. So, let's say that I believe someone like Jesus existed. Sure. Why not? The historical evidence suggests he did, so I'll accept that. I also accept that this Jesus guy pissed off a lot of people: Romans, Jews, rabbis, provincial governors, etc.

Jesus was your all around trouble maker, a disrupter of the order of things. A radical who made enemies of the powers that be: the conservatives, if you will; those who wanted to keep things just as they always were. So far so good. This rebellious nature of the good man Jesus is why I like the guy. Let's just say, Jesus is my kind of dude.

So, God sends down Jesus, knowing damned well that he is going to stir up some serious shit. Ok, at this point, God is my kind of dude too. After all, the shit back then did need some serious stirring. But, wait! Things go horribly wrong for Jesus. He gets betrayed by one of his loyal followers. The authorities round him up. A mob overrules any chance of a pardon. The guy gets condemned to death. It's a great narrative for a plot, a metaphor of sorts showing that people are always going to reject the interloper, even one who is the son of their god. People bad, hence, they need forgiving.

Now, this is where we have to separate the fact from fiction. In fact-land, nothing in this outcome comes as a surprise to god. So, the whole passion play is an unnecessary exercise in futility. The closest one can come to explaining the why for it is to say god somehow had to experience life as a man to understand him. But, why? God made man. Surely he understands man...well, at least one would hope he does.

Anyway, it makes much more sense as a great tale than it does a documentary.
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You can't take it any "further" since you're stumped on the first one! You haven't even gotten over this hurdle. :)
You have to deal with this first, and provide a reasonable explanation for it:


And you're forgetting one thing: how can a mere man raise up the dead and heal the sick and
perform other miracles such as exorcism.

Why were the demons scared of Him?

That's what made Him popular: His miracles!


Lol. How can you reasonably explain that!
 
Sometimes it's just impossible for us to know why God does the things he does, hell, half the time we can't even figure why we do the things we do.

It's important to remember the Bible was as much of a political text as it was a Holy book, and it has been translated end edited so many times by man. None of the books that are in the New Testament were even written by anyone that was alive when Jesus lived, and sometimes language itself and the way people use it changes, and that can completely change the meanings.

Just look how bad our news reporting is with all the modern tools we have, it's still hard to see the full facts of a situation.

Multiply that times 2000 years, you might get a good idea of how factual the Bible maybe.

Everyone's relationship with their God or Gods is a personal one, it's impossible for me to answer your questions with anything definitive, because I would only be giving you my opinion, but, best I understand it God is love, and love is God, anything that you read or hear that doesn't pass that test, is likely man made horse pucky.
 
Elvira said:
No, it's called free will...
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Being struck down and afflicted by things beyond our control has zero to do with our personal exercise of free will, if such a thing can even be said to exist. Does free will give a newborn baby its birth defects? Is it the free will of that newborn that caused it? Is it free will that causes genetically cause birth defects that had nothing to do with the exercise of free will by the parents? Do you even understand how to apply the concept of free will to human behavior?

If my exercise of free will cannot spare me from horrible things, what is the value of saying that I have it?
 
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