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Showering Together; Gays/Straights v Male/Female

missypea

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I thought Goshin's post in another thread would be a great opening post for this thread so with his permission...........

I'm asking the question: IS there no comparison between the two issues? Both involve someone being among nude individuals to whom he/she might be attracted, and the question of whether such a scenario could lead to problems.

It seems that with male/female scenarios we DO automatically assume their could be issues. We DO seem to automatically assume that some women would be uncomfortable with it and further that it is OKAY and REASONABLE for women to have a problem with communally showering/changing among men.

Yet when we turn that around and say "some men might be uncomfortable showering/changing with homosexual men", all the sudden they are homophobes who need to grow up and get over it, because THEY are the problem.

Double standard?

I'm just asking questions...




What are your thoughts people?

:2wave:
 
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Goshin

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I'd be intrested in what Jallman's perspective on this might be. He'd have more insight into the matter than most of us, and to be frank many of "us" would be more inclined to listen to a fellow Conservative's thoughts on this, than one of you liberal types. :mrgreen:


I am curious as to why women seem to get a pass about being uncomfortable or frightened about showering/changing in communal setting with men; yet men who'd rather not shower/change with a gay man are labeled and castigated for their presumably-honest feelings. ?
 

Redress

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I think if men and women showered together on a regular basis, it would cease to be a big deal. Gays have been showering with people of the same sex since school most likely, so I suspect they are pretty used to it and it's not a big deal.
 

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There's a difference between "gender" and "sexuality," so I don't see any double standard.
 

samsmart

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I am curious as to why women seem to get a pass about being uncomfortable or frightened about showering/changing in communal setting with men; yet men who'd rather not shower/change with a gay man are labeled and castigated for their presumably-honest feelings. ?
I'd be more uncomfortable and frightened showering/changing in communal settings with women than I would be with gay men.
 

Caine

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There's a difference between "gender" and "sexuality," so I don't see any double standard.
Unfortunately, "sexuality" is where the problem lies between both showering versions.

So put away your dictionary, it won't be helpful for this debate.
 

Caine

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I'd be more uncomfortable and frightened showering/changing in communal settings with women than I would be with gay men.
Thats how you feel, how do you know WHY you feel that way. And can you explain it?
 

cpwill

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It seems that with male/female scenarios we DO automatically assume their could be issues. We DO seem to automatically assume that some women would be uncomfortable with it and further that it is OKAY and REASONABLE for women to have a problem with communally showering/changing among men.

Yet when we turn that around and say "some men might be uncomfortable showering/changing with homosexual men", all the sudden they are homophobes who need to grow up and get over it, because THEY are the problem.

Double standard?
Good point. it is indeed.
 

Goshin

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There's a difference between "gender" and "sexuality," so I don't see any double standard.
So.... It's okay if someone has a problem with showering/changing with the opposite GENDER...

...but if they're uncomfortable about showering/changing with someone whose sexuality suggests that the person might be lusting after them, then they're NOT ok?

See, this is where it seems to stray outside the bounds of reasonableness to me. There seems to be a determination to ignore the fact that male/female gender-segregation issues are directly related to sexuality, and that the homosexual question at least might be relevant.
 
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1069

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I'm asking the question: IS there no comparison between the two issues? Both involve someone being among nude individuals to whom he/she might be attracted, and the question of whether such a scenario could lead to problems.
It's hard for me to believe that anyone- gay, straight, or bi- doesn't sometimes find some individuals of the same sex at all attractive.
I'm sure gays, like the rest of us, have enough self-restraint to simply take care of the business at hand even when they encounter someone attractive in the course of their daily lives.
 

missypea

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There's a difference between "gender" and "sexuality," so I don't see any double standard.
Agreed.

There is a difference to me, the first one is anatomy.

Women have estrogen flowing through their bodies. We have vaginas and breasts.
Men have testosterone flowing through their bodies. They have a penis and testes.
We are different inside and out.

Based on that alone, gays and straights showering together v male and female showering together are very, very different things.
 
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tacomancer

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Good point. it is indeed.
I don't think so. Men tend to be more physically powerful and aggressive than women and that is a legitimate reason for discomfort. There will always be some possibility of some lack of self control in a mixed setting. Even if 99.99% of cases do not have an issue.
 
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Caine

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What are your thoughts people?

:2wave:
What are YOUR thoughts since you were so adamant that the two are "totally different, it just is!" and then refused to explain how in the other thread. You made this thread, and now you aren't talking.

What are YOUR thoughts?
 

Caine

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Agreed.

There is a difference to me, the first one is anatomy.

Women have estrogen flowing through their bodies. We have vaginas and breasts.
Men have testosteron flowing through their bodies. They have a penis and testes.
We are different inside and out.

Based on that alone, gays and straights showering together v male and female showering together are very, very different things.
Dictionary aside, Sexuality is where people take problems with women and men showering in the same communal showers, as well as with gay males/straight males.
Thus, the two versions share the same problem. THAT is why it is not "two totally different things!"

"OMG I don't want to shower with women because I might have to see large breasts and vaginas! Oh the humanity!" I don't think Anatomy has jack **** to do with the PROBLEM.
 

Caine

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It's hard for me to believe that anyone- gay, straight, or bi- doesn't sometimes find some individuals of the same sex at all attractive.
I'm sure gays, like the rest of us, have enough self-restraint to simply take care of the business at hand even when they encounter someone attractive in the course of their daily lives.
This is where you are focusing on the gays only side of things.

Its about the feelings of the other individuals in the shower. Their comfort level, their insecurities.

But screw them, they aren't a part of the agenda right?
 

Goshin

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I think if men and women showered together on a regular basis, it would cease to be a big deal. Gays have been showering with people of the same sex since school most likely, so I suspect they are pretty used to it and it's not a big deal.

I expect that you are correct, at least to a point. One of the reasons we find nudity (in the appropriate gender) arousing is because it is unusual. That is, we are not accustomed to seeing everyone we know "in the natural" on anything like a regular basis.

BUT... I don't know that familiarity is a sure and total cure to the issue of sexual attraction. I'm a middle-aged man and I've "been around the block" so to speak. I've seen lots of nudity and I'm comfortable in my own skin.

However, seeing a woman in the nude, whom I find attractive, is invariably going to come with a powerful temptation to take a GOOD long look, even if the situation is such that it would be inappropriate. I might be able to resist that temptation most of the time; a young man 18-25yo would have a more difficult time resisting the temptation, and a good many people would find it difficult not to go further: such as a proposition.

That's the reason for gender segregation: it IS about sexuality, and it is done to attempt to avoid problems and avoid making people feel as if they are under sexual scrutiny by other people in the shower or locker room.

I again ask why, or even if, this doesn't apply to homosexuals among their own gender?

Is it not dishonest for our society to put a stamp of approval on women who don't want to shower with men (and we all know WHY NOT)... yet label and denigrate men who don't wish to be put in a very similar situation, with male homosexuals?

It is difficult not to call this a hypocritical double standard.
 

Goshin

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I don't think so. Men tend to be more physically powerful and aggressive than women and that is a legitimate reason for discomfort. There will always be some possibility of some lack of self control in a mixed setting. Even if 99.99% of cases do not have an issue.

Okay... so let's say the last two dudes in the shower after everyone else has left, are a 240 pound gay man who is the division powerlifting and MMA champ, and a 150 pound straight male file clerk? :mrgreen:

I'm quite serious. Should we segregate within genders by weight-class?

If you think I'm being crazy, ask someone who's been in prison...
 
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Caine

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Okay... so let's say the last two dudes in the shower after everyone else has left, are a 240 pound gay man who is the division powerlifting and MMA champ, and a 150 pound straight male file clerk? :mrgreen:

I'm quite serious.
Chances are the 240 pound MMA champ would not find the 150 pound nerdling very attractive.

But thats just a guess.
lol

Of course, that wouldn't explain the small guy's anxiety to such a situation, which is what the point is.
 

missypea

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I am curious as to why women seem to get a pass about being uncomfortable or frightened about showering/changing in communal setting with men; yet men who'd rather not shower/change with a gay man are labeled and castigated for their presumably-honest feelings. ?
Another one of my reasons: No man, other than my husband, gets to see me naked. I don't think it was in my vows like that, but it was in my heart like that.
I can't imagine there are a lot of men out there who would want their wife to shower with a bunch of men either.

As for being frightened/uncomfortable...overall, women are weaker then men. Women hold the risk in a male/female communal shower.


Hubby just got home from work......I'll be back
 

Caine

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Another one of my reasons: No man, other than my husband, gets to see me naked. I don't think it was in my vows like that, but it was in my heart like that.
I can't imagine there are a lot of men out there who would want their wife to shower with a bunch of men either.

As for being frightened/uncomfortable...overall, women are weaker then men. Women hold the risk in a male/female communal shower.


Hubby just got home from work......I'll be back
My wife says nobody is allowed to see my naked body and be sexually attracted to it but her.
 

tacomancer

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Okay... so let's say the last two dudes in the shower after everyone else has left, are a 240 pound gay man who is the division powerlifting and MMA champ, and a 150 pound straight male file clerk? :mrgreen:

I'm quite serious. Should we segregate within genders by weight-class?

If you think I'm being crazy, ask someone who's been in prison...
I don't think that type of segregation would be practical. However, given the relative percentage of the population that is gay compared to straight, the risk of an incident of a man on man nature vs a man on woman nature is extremely low. Not to say it won't happen, but I would venture to guess you would have less than 10 incidents a year.
 

Goshin

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My wife says nobody is allowed to see my naked body and be sexually attracted to it but her.
+1 for pointing out again, that this is a double standard.

I'm open to being proven wrong; demonstrate that it is somehow OKAY for women to refuse to shower/change with men communally, while at the same time it is WRONG for men to not want to shower/change with homosexuals for very similar reasons, and that this is not a hypocritical double-standard.

So far I haven't seen any substantive claims, just emotive ones.
 

Redress

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Hubby just got home from work......I'll be back
After all this, I would drag him off to the shower for the start of a good time :2razz:
 

Goshin

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I don't think that type of segregation would be practical. However, given the relative percentage of the population that is gay compared to straight, the risk of an incident of a man on man nature vs a man on woman nature is extremely low. Not to say it won't happen, but I would venture to guess you would have less than 10 incidents a year.
So, if only 10 male file-clerks a year get ass-raped, that is an acceptible ratio? :mrgreen:

Dude, can you imagine how many women would be emasculating you if you suggested that 10 female rapes a year in the Army was an acceptably low number (for the sake of some PCness like not segregating showers), and that we should just go with it?
 
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Redress

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+1 for pointing out again, that this is a double standard.

I'm open to being proven wrong; demonstrate that it is somehow OKAY for women to refuse to shower/change with men communally, while at the same time it is WRONG for men to not want to shower/change with homosexuals for very similar reasons, and that this is not a hypocritical double-standard.

So far I haven't seen any substantive claims, just emotive ones.
Just to be clear, this is not my point. I have been is a couple situations where sexes where sharing communal showers, and it was handled without any noticeable trouble.
 
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