Showering Together; Gays/Straights v Male/Female

[Slartibartfast]

+1 for pointing out again, that this is a double standard.

I'm open to being proven wrong; demonstrate that it is somehow OKAY for women to refuse to shower/change with men communally, while at the same time it is WRONG for men to not want to shower/change with homosexuals for very similar reasons, and that this is not a hypocritical double-standard.

So far I haven't seen any substantive claims, just emotive ones.

I think in the case of the military and if homosexuality is openly allowed, it should be made clear to new recruits or people who reup that this is the new standard and if they are not ok with it for some personal reason than they are free not to join. The same standard can easily be applied to coed situations.

Of course this does not address issues with current recuits. For that, I am willing to wait until the study is done since that seems to be the most practical way to go about integration.

 

[rivrrat]

My wife says nobody is allowed to see my naked body and be sexually attracted to it but her.

Then you shouldn't join the military, because you'll have to let a bunch of guys see your naked body. If that's an issue for you, don't join the military. Or go to a gym

 

[rivrrat]

Just to be clear, this is not my point. I have been is a couple situations where sexes where sharing communal showers, and it was handled without any noticeable trouble.

Exactly. It's only an issue for the immature folks with impulse control problems.

 

[Redress]

So, if only 10 male file-clerks a year get ass-raped, that is an acceptible ratio? :mrgreen:

Dude, can you imagine how many women would be emasculating you if you suggested that 10 female rapes a year in the Army was an acceptably low number, and that we should just go with it?

I think you are reading into what he is saying. Rape is relatively rare in the military, it is not a huge issue. Each incident is unacceptable, and the military is pretty unforgiving on the issue, as they should be. That does not make it a significant aspect of planning policy for the military.

Will gays harass and potentially rape other military people? Of course, gays are no better or worse than any one else, and some are going to be assholes. That does not mean we should make a policy based on the fact a handful are unable to handle themselves.

 

[missypea]

Caine, Tom and Joe have been showering together for their eight months in the military. Caine and Tom found out last week that Joe is gay.

Caine, Tom & Joe have been showering together for their eight months in the military.
This week, Tiffany was forced to join them because a bunch of people thought gays and straights showering together was the same thing as men and women showering together.
Tiffany is Caine's girlfriend/wife.

No difference?


Look, I will concede this. I think if men and women showering together was the norm, I might feel differently about throwing them in the same shower now. It's just not the norm, maybe in 30 more years.


Now my hubby gets some time.....later

 

[missypea]

My wife says nobody is allowed to see my naked body and be sexually attracted to it but her.

You're assuming that someone would be sexually attracted to you simply because they're gay.

Poor form.

 

[Slartibartfast]

So, if only 10 male file-clerks a year get ass-raped, that is an acceptible ratio? :mrgreen:

Dude, can you imagine how many women would be emasculating you if you suggested that 10 female rapes a year in the Army was an acceptably low number (for the sake of some PCness like not segregating showers), and that we should just go with it?

Its never acceptable and the military will come down hard on such an incident. However, it would unrealistic to assume that there would be none. Ultimately though, I am pretty sure that people who are inclined to rape another person are going to do it anyway in another situation.

 

[missypea]

This is the last post for me for awhile. I'm gonna have to do something drastic and turn off the computer!

One last thing is that no-one brought up how women would feel about showering with lesbians. I know it wouldn't bother me, I did it for a few years in high school and we got along fine. They knew I was hetro and the gay chicks were just like the "ungay" chicks....talking about teachers, classes, whatever. I never felt any kind of intimidation or pressure or "icky".

So is this a guy issue? I haven't seen any women up in arms about it...........

:thinking

 

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by Goshin
Okay... so let's say the last two dudes in the shower after everyone else has left, are a 240 pound gay man who is the division powerlifting and MMA champ, and a 150 pound straight male file clerk?

I'm quite serious. Should we segregate within genders by weight-class?

If you think I'm being crazy, ask someone who's been in prison...

I don't think that type of segregation would be practical. However, given the relative percentage of the population that is gay compared to straight, the risk of an incident of a man on man nature vs a man on woman nature is extremely low. Not to say it won't happen, but I would venture to guess you would have less than 10 incidents a year.

I've been thinking... instead of having showers and lockerrooms labeled "Men" and "Women", maybe we should just label them:

Wimpy

Semi-Tough

Major Badasses

...instead. :lamo

 

[Goshin]

So, if only 10 male file-clerks a year get ass-raped, that is an acceptible ratio? :mrgreen:

Dude, can you imagine how many women would be emasculating you if you suggested that 10 female rapes a year in the Army was an acceptably low number (for the sake of some PCness like not segregating showers), and that we should just go with it?

I don't think that type of segregation would be practical. However, given the relative percentage of the population that is gay compared to straight, the risk of an incident of a man on man nature vs a man on woman nature is extremely low. Not to say it won't happen, but I would venture to guess you would have less than 10 incidents a year.

You're assuming that someone would be sexually attracted to you simply because they're gay.

Poor form.

AH.... but why are YOU assuming that just because someone is a man, that he would be sexually attracted to YOUR naked body?

You might not do anything for Jallman, you know. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, we come up again against the double standard.

 

[rivrrat]

This is the last post for me for awhile. I'm gonna have to do something drastic and turn off the computer!

One last thing is that no-one brought up how women would feel about showering with lesbians. I know it wouldn't bother me, I did it for a few years in high school and we got along fine. They knew I was hetro and the gay chicks were just like the "ungay" chicks....talking about teachers, classes, whatever. I never felt any kind of intimidation or pressure or "icky".

So is this a guy issue? I haven't seen any women up in arms about it...........

:thinking

It's about 99% a 'guy' issue. I've never heard of a woman having an issue showering with a lesbian either. We just don't give a **** about that. Why would we? Why do men? Who knows. /shrug They're men. They're ruled by their penises, and god ****ing forbid another man check it out. I mean, they might catch 'teh gay'. :lol:

But, I allowed for 1% of the women to be terribly bothered by showering with a lesbian because I acknowledge that while I, nor any woman I know of, have never heard of such a thing, that doesn't mean those women don't exist somewhere. So, they can have the 1%.

 

[missypea]

AH.... but why are YOU assuming that just because someone is a man, that he would be sexually attracted to YOUR naked body?

Seriously though, we come up again against the double standard.

No, no double standard but it's interesting to see how a man's mind works when the word "naked" is thrown out there :mrgreen:

I never assumed that nor did I say that....re-read it. It has everything to do with my marriage, my vows, honoring my husband.
I never said anything about attraction.

 

[Goshin]

Its never acceptable and the military will come down hard on such an incident. However, it would unrealistic to assume that there would be none. Ultimately though, I am pretty sure that people who are inclined to rape another person are going to do it anyway in another situation.

Okay. Just in case it isn't obvious, I've been playing in this thread, kicking the football around and having fun, asking people uncomfortable questions.

In all seriousness, I don't expect soldiers who happen to be gay to be any more inclined toward rapine of their fellow soldiers, than soldiers who are straight. I don't think that will be a major problem.

My point is simply this: if women get to exclude men from their showers and lockerrooms, let's not pretend that sexuality isn't a huge part of the reason for that... and lets don't pretend that straight men who might be uncomfortable showering/changing with gays for similar reasons are cretinous bigots if we're going to be okay with the former female example.

 

[rivrrat]

AH.... but why are YOU assuming that just because someone is a man, that he would be sexually attracted to YOUR naked body?

Dude, seriously? You don't know women very well, do you? Most of the women that would be bothered by showering with men, are more likely to be concerned that the men would not find them attractive.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I thought Goshin's post in another thread would be a great opening post for this thread so with his permission...........

I'm asking the question: IS there no comparison between the two issues? Both involve someone being among nude individuals to whom he/she might be attracted, and the question of whether such a scenario could lead to problems.

It seems that with male/female scenarios we DO automatically assume their could be issues. We DO seem to automatically assume that some women would be uncomfortable with it and further that it is OKAY and REASONABLE for women to have a problem with communally showering/changing among men.

Yet when we turn that around and say "some men might be uncomfortable showering/changing with homosexual men", all the sudden they are homophobes who need to grow up and get over it, because THEY are the problem.

Double standard?

I'm just asking questions...



What are your thoughts people?

:2wave:

I'm female - and shower naked with no one.

If I absolutely had to choose, though, I'd stick with women - sexuality non specified. Such things aren't my issue. Because it's not about who might be looking at me - but about who might be looking at me and who I might, also, have an "attraction" of some nature to. If I'm not going to be encroaching awkward 'relationship' status with anyone then I don't care - so - I'm not attracted to women, only men, thus, I will never opt to be in the nude around other men at all.

 

[Goshin]

No, no double standard but it's interesting to see how a man's mind works when the word "naked" is thrown out there :mrgreen:
I never assumed that nor did I say that....re-read it. It has everything to do with my marriage, my vows, honoring my husband.
I never said anything about attraction.

I'm not trying to make you mad Missy, but I have to ask another question: WHY would it be "everything to do with my marriage, my vows, honoring my husband" to be nude in front of another man?

Is it not because of an assumption that there is a sexual component to being nude in front of a person of the appropriate gender/orientation?

If a Gayman found his partner alone in a room with another gay man, and they were both naked, is it not unreasonable for some kind of sexual context to be assumed?

My point is that trying to seperate out the sexual component, and make it all about gender, is disingenuous and points out the double-standard even more. :shrug:


(this is endless fun btw, lol)

 

[Goshin]

Dude, seriously? You don't know women very well, do you? Most of the women that would be bothered by showering with men, are more likely to be concerned that the men would not find them attractive.

ROFL.... yeah you're right about that. :mrgreen:


(and yeah, I knew that, lol)

 

[rivrrat]

Is it not because of an assumption that there is a sexual component to being nude in front of a person of the appropriate gender/orientation?

Which is where people are wrong.

If a Gayman found his partner alone in a room with another gay man, and they were both naked, is it not unreasonable for some kind of sexual context to be assumed?

Only if there was no other reason for them to be nude.

 

[Goshin]

Which is where people are wrong.


Only if there was no other reason for them to be nude.

I'll agree with you that we make a big deal about it, when it isn't always so.

However, bear in mind that we have people in this thread to whom it IS a big deal. Missypea says that she will not be nude in front of any other man except her husband. Okay, fine... but I ask the question WHY?

Her answer is that it has "everything to do with my marriage, my vows, honoring my husband."

Okay, WHY does it have to do with honoring your marriage/vows/husband?

BECAUSE, for many people, there IS a sexual context associated with nudity! Trying to make it all about GENDER is disingenuous.

 

[missypea]

I'm not trying to make you mad Missy, but I have to ask another question: WHY would it be "everything to do with my marriage, my vows, honoring my husband" to be nude in front of another man?

Is it not because of an assumption that there is a sexual component to being nude in front of a person of the appropriate gender/orientation?

If a Gayman found his partner alone in a room with another gay man, and they were both naked, is it not unreasonable for some kind of sexual context to be assumed?

My point is that trying to seperate out the sexual component, and make it all about gender, is disingenuous and points out the double-standard even more. :shrug:


(this is endless fun btw, lol)

I'm not mad at all and since Gary sat down to play a game of poker....I don't have to leave just yet.

So to answer your question, it really is all about gender to me. :shrug:
I would have no problem being the only hetro in a shower full of gay women. I grew up showering with women. It's "normal"

Being naked with a man has all kinds of implications in it.
It's all about gender, baby.


EDIT: Could also be that I can be a rather prudish liberal


So let me throw it back to you, Goshin.
You and Joe and Tom work together and have been showering together for the last year. No worries, no wondering, just three guys.
You find out that Tom is gay, do you feel differently working with him now? How about when the three of you are in the shower, are you afraid or ?

and if so.......why?

 

[Goshin]

I'm not mad at all and since Gary sat down to play a game of poker....I don't have to leave just yet.

So to answer your question, it really is all about gender to me. :shrug:
I would have no problem being the only hetro in a shower full of gay women. I grew up showering with women. It's "normal"

Being naked with a man has all kinds of implications in it.
It's all about gender, baby.



So let me throw it back to you, Goshin.
You and Joe and Tom work together and have been showering together for the last year. No worries, no wondering, just three guys.
You find out that Tom is gay, do you feel differently working with him now? How about when the three of you are in the shower, are you afraid or ?

and if so.......why?

I suppose it would depend on this and that. How well do I really know Tom? Does he have a "partner"? Might he have secretly been harboring butt-lusty feelings towards me all year? :mrgreen:
Yeah to be honest it would suddenly seem a little awkward, and I would not be crazy about it.

Actually I have been propositioned by gay men on several occasions. I'm not sure why, I don't seem to fit the classical "5% bodyfat, highly buff and stylish neat dresser" stereotype, but it happens.

It always makes me uncomfortable, expecially if it comes as a surprise (as it often does). On one occasion, a really really BIG gay guy propositioned me and was kind of pushy about it. That was a VERY uncomfortable situation. He came very close to a ride in an ambulance when he didn't want to take No for an answer. I actually had to get in my car and leave the area.

I felt so cheap and tawdry. :mrgreen:


Anyway... I dunno maybe it IS a guy-thing... and maybe because it is a guy-thing you can't understand.

I still think it is a double-standard tho.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I've been thinking... instead of having showers and lockerrooms labeled "Men" and "Women", maybe we should just label them:







...instead. :lamo

As I stated before, I think it would be impractical.

 

[Goshin]

As I stated before, I think it would be impractical.

It was a joke, son. :mrgreen:

A play on the assumption that women are more susceptible to male violence (true to a point), and pointing out that predatory men also prey on men who are smaller, weaker or less able to defend themselves.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Okay. Just in case it isn't obvious, I've been playing in this thread, kicking the football around and having fun, asking people uncomfortable questions.

In all seriousness, I don't expect soldiers who happen to be gay to be any more inclined toward rapine of their fellow soldiers, than soldiers who are straight. I don't think that will be a major problem.

My point is simply this: if women get to exclude men from their showers and lockerrooms, let's not pretend that sexuality isn't a huge part of the reason for that... and lets don't pretend that straight men who might be uncomfortable showering/changing with gays for similar reasons are cretinous bigots if we're going to be okay with the former female example.

Yeah I agree and I know this thread isn't for me. But honestly, I think we think about sex way too much in this country, mostly because we try to restrict it so much. If these things were accepted than few would really notice as it would be normal.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It was a joke, son. :mrgreen:

A play on the assumption that women are more susceptible to male violence (true to a point), and pointing out that predatory men also prey on men who are smaller, weaker or less able to defend themselves.

I recognize the attempt at humor, but I don't really think it is funny. But then again, I am in a detatched and anylytical mood tonight.