Showering Together; Gays/Straights v Male/Female

[Aunt Spiker]

Yeah I agree and I know this thread isn't for me. But honestly, I think we think about sex way too much in this country, mostly because we try to restrict it so much. If these things were accepted than few would really notice as it would be normal.

Maybe it's not sex at all.
Or, well, maybe it's not *just* about sex.

For me it's more about body-image. . . concern about what someone thinks of my saggy tits and wrinkly cheeks. I don't want people to see how I really am (this is true in all senses, not just the most naked sense unclothed) Sex doesn't actually play into the thought seeing as how I'm married and not actually going to romp around with some dudes in the shower midst an orgy.

I think people treasure a glossy-photo version of their selves to be shown to others (heart, mind, body) rather than people seeing someone for who they really are. We want perfection but fail to achieve it and judge ourselves, and, would rather others not judge us at all.

So it boils down to insecurities - whichever way you look at it. If someone isn't secure with their body or mind, they won't let people see it without some fake covering.

 

[Goshin]

Maybe it's not sex at all.
Or, well, maybe it's not *just* about sex.

For me it's more about body-image. . . concern about what someone thinks of my saggy tits and wrinkly cheeks. I don't want people to see how I really am (this is true in all senses, not just the most naked sense unclothed) Sex doesn't actually play into the thought seeing as how I'm married and not actually going to romp around with some dudes in the shower midst an orgy.

I think people treasure a glossy-photo version of their selves to be shown to others (heart, mind, body) rather than people seeing someone for who they really are. We want perfection but fail to achieve it and judge ourselves, and, would rather others not judge us at all.

So it boils down to insecurities - whichever way you look at it. If someone isn't secure with their body or mind, they won't let people see it without some fake covering.

I think you make some excellent points, and for a good percentage of people that probably has a lot to do with it.

But I still think that for many it does indeed have to do with sexuality issues; I think a number of posts in this thread prove that.

 

[Orion]

A few things...

First of all, gay men have been showering with straight guys their whole lives. The reason is that if they want to have a shower in a public space, they have no choice. There is no "gay" shower. For this reason, they've just had to get over it, just like the military men will have to. Also, if they are joining the military, they are well aware that they'll be exposed to other men and that it's a homophobic environment. As if they'd make a move and risk getting attacked.

Second, if it is completely inappropriate that men sexually assault women, why do people think that gay men are somehow beyond the rules and would be more likely to assault another man? I mean yeah, man on man rape does happen, but the vast majority of the time it happens in prison or in the bed chambers. I really doubt that it's going to happen in a military shower. You people watch too many movies, get a reality check.

Third... good luck enforcing any kind of separation policy. In order to do that, you'd need gay men to be up front about their sexuality as soon as they join the military, and let me tell you, regardless if DADT is lifted, not all of them are going to do it. There will be guys who choose to keep their sexuality private to avoid the politics, and frankly, you aren't entitled to know about it anyway.

And let's not even talk about all the "straight" guys who like some man action from time to time and don't see themselves as gay.

Gay people are all around you in society, whether you want to admit it or not, and whether or not those guys want to admit that they are into guys. You're just going to have to deal with it. It's not going to go away. DADT is just cozy denial of reality to help you delude yourselves into thinking that everyone around you conforms to your ideal of social norms.

 

[rivrrat]

I suppose it would depend on this and that. How well do I really know Tom? Does he have a "partner"? Might he have secretly been harboring butt-lusty feelings towards me all year? :mrgreen:
Yeah to be honest it would suddenly seem a little awkward, and I would not be crazy about it.

Actually I have been propositioned by gay men on several occasions. I'm not sure why, I don't seem to fit the classical "5% bodyfat, highly buff and stylish neat dresser" stereotype, but it happens.

It always makes me uncomfortable, expecially if it comes as a surprise (as it often does). On one occasion, a really really BIG gay guy propositioned me and was kind of pushy about it. That was a VERY uncomfortable situation. He came very close to a ride in an ambulance when he didn't want to take No for an answer. I actually had to get in my car and leave the area.

I felt so cheap and tawdry. :mrgreen:


Anyway... I dunno maybe it IS a guy-thing... and maybe because it is a guy-thing you can't understand.

I still think it is a double-standard tho.

I doubt you feel any more uncomfortable than any woman does when propositioned by a man she has no interest in. Especially a large, pushy one.

 

[Goshin]

I doubt you feel any more uncomfortable than any woman does when propositioned by a man she has no interest in. Especially a large, pushy one.

Actually that's exactly my point.


A lot of women who would not like having to take communal showers with men, feel that way because of concern over men lusting at their nakedness and making pushy propositions.

Society says that it is okay for women to feel this way and demand seperate showers and changing rooms.

Men who feel the same way about gay men for similar reasons are told they are cretinous bigots who need to get over it.

I haven't seen anyone yet propose a good reason why this isn't a form of hypocrisy.

 

[rivrrat]

Actually that's exactly my point.


A lot of women who would not like having to take communal showers with men, feel that way because of concern over men lusting at their nakedness and making pushy propositions.

Society says that it is okay for women to feel this way and demand seperate showers and changing rooms.

Men who feel the same way about gay men for similar reasons are told they are cretinous bigots who need to get over it.

I haven't seen anyone yet propose a good reason why this isn't a form of hypocrisy.

No, I'm telling you... it's because they fear the man will NOT find them attractive. :lol: Women have no such issues with lesbians. So it certainly IS a gender thing and not a sexuality thing.

With the men, it's a sexuality thing and not a gender thing.

Regardless, people need to get over themselves.

I guess I've spent too much time running around a bunch of other people nude to give a ****.

 

[cpwill]

here's what I know; in boot camp, it was three or four recruits to a shower head; and shall we simply say space was limited. the motto was nut to butt, and the motto was generally followed. so, every female who is cool with me rubbing my naked body all over her when it's my turn to step into the stream (and visa versa), you get to say you're fine with this. otherwise, you may want to sit down and give it a thought. because obviously it's more of a sexual thing for the guys; we are the ones with the supercharged sex drives.

 

[rivrrat]

here's what I know; in boot camp, it was three or four recruits to a shower head; and shall we simply say space was limited. the motto was nut to butt, and the motto was generally followed. so, every female who is cool with me rubbing my naked body all over her when it's my turn to step into the stream (and visa versa), you get to say you're fine with this. otherwise, you may want to sit down and give it a thought. because obviously it's more of a sexual thing for the guys; we are the ones with the supercharged sex drives.

It would be more of an issue for the men, than for the women. I surely wouldn't give a ****. I wouldn't be the one getting a hard on. :lol:

 

[rathi]

Its all about cultural norms. Take someone who has never communally with the same gender showered in their life before and they will feel uncomfortable. Its not uncommon for kids in high school to freak out when they first have to hit the showers after gym. Eventually they get used to it and it normally ceases to become an issue. When I went to Europe, I was pretty uncomfortable trying to hold a conversion with ladies in a state of undress at the beach. It simply took time before I became accustomed to the the social standards at the place.

As for the military, such issues are completely irrelevant. Gays are currently showering with their own gender without problem. That isn't going to change regardless of what happens to DADT.

 

[Goshin]

Its all about cultural norms. Take someone who has never communally with the same gender showered in their life before and they will feel uncomfortable. Its not uncommon for kids in high school to freak out when they first have to hit the showers after gym. Eventually they get used to it and it normally ceases to become an issue. When I went to Europe, I was pretty uncomfortable trying to hold a conversion with ladies in a state of undress at the beach. It simply took time before I became accustomed to the the social standards at the place.

As for the military, such issues are completely irrelevant. Gays are currently showering with their own gender without problem. That isn't going to change regardless of what happens to DADT.

Conceded that you have some valid points.


Regarding the bolded sentence: if gays are allowed to serve, and are allowed to be openly gay, there might indeed be some issues. Perhaps some or most of these issues won't be because of gays "flouting their gayness", but because of soldiers who have issues with sharing intimately crowded conditions with openly gay soldiers. The fact that they have these issues shouldn't be swept under the rug with a simplistic "oh, they need to grow up and get over their homophobia". Combat readiness and unit cohesion are more important within the military than social justice. I'd just like to be more sure that this isn't going to cause problems before we do it... possibly the current generation isn't ready for this change? I'd rather see such change put off for another 10-20 years than see it implemented in a way that might impair the military's operational effectiveness.

Maybe it will be fine; I hope so since it is looking like a done deal. I just wish we had more data and a better certainty that it isn't going to cause serious problems within the ranks.

 

[1069]

Maybe it's not sex at all.
Or, well, maybe it's not *just* about sex.

For me it's more about body-image. . . concern about what someone thinks of my saggy tits and wrinkly cheeks. I don't want people to see how I really am (this is true in all senses, not just the most naked sense unclothed) Sex doesn't actually play into the thought seeing as how I'm married and not actually going to romp around with some dudes in the shower midst an orgy.

In my experience, men are far less critical, less judgmental, and more accepting of women's bodies than other women are (including gay women).
If you want to feel good about your body, strut around naked in front of a bunch of men and revel in the appreciation.
If you want to feel bad about it, hang around naked with a bunch of women and just listen to the catty remarks flying around.
Even if a woman is perfect, other women will find something about her body to criticize.

Men who see two naked women (or even a whole roomful of them) aren't thinking, "Wow, this one looks a lot better than that one; this one's got nicer boobs than that one, but this other one over here has a much more toned belly, etc."
They're thinking, "Wow, I wonder what it would be like to screw both of them at once!"
They don't seem to make these constant comparisons and judgments like women do (even about men, but especially about other women).

I don't know if gay guys are more like women in their perspective (a lot of the ones I've known have seemed judgmental and catty).

 

[O_Guru]

Well some people of all genders/sexualities do not like public showers thats first and foremost but we in some settings they are forced to get over it. IMO i think we should all get over it and conduct yourself accordingly BUT thats just me and I get my opinion isnt the issues.

this is how i think it should go down. Now except on TV or in other countries im not familiar with any co-ed showers even in the military but i could be wrong.

So IMO the situation should always match the preexcisting standards. Meaning, if the showers are already co-ed sexuality is NOT up for debate it doesnt matter, If showers are not co-ed then sexuality IS up for debate and showers should not be mixed.

Basically keep the same standards dont change them

 

[StandUpChuck]

This is the last post for me for awhile. I'm gonna have to do something drastic and turn off the computer!

One last thing is that no-one brought up how women would feel about showering with lesbians. I know it wouldn't bother me, I did it for a few years in high school and we got along fine. They knew I was hetro and the gay chicks were just like the "ungay" chicks....talking about teachers, classes, whatever. I never felt any kind of intimidation or pressure or "icky".

So is this a guy issue? I haven't seen any women up in arms about it...........

:thinking

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so forgive me if this has been answered. Showering with men WOULD bother me. I don't even like men employed in the fitting room at a dept store. Showering with other women when there may or may not be a lesbian lurking around wouldn't really bother me (then again, I don't really do communal showers). There is a sense you get when a man is checking you out in a sexual way. It can either be accepted or repulsive. Many, many times I've had that feeling, and I just want to get away.

Perhaps, as someone said upthread, it's because men are generally more powerful and generally the aggressors. Rape is not fun. I don't need to put myself in a position where some creep might lose control.

Men with men is a different scenario as men tend to be physcially equal (I said tend).

 

[Goshin]

Men with men is a different scenario as men tend to be physcially equal (I said tend).

Um... not so much really.

There are men who weigh 110 lbs, and there are men who are 300 lbs of solid muscle. That's a massive difference in physicality.

There are men (including men in the military) who are well-trained professional killers who can destroy other men with their bare hands. There are men (including men in the military) who have no slightest clue how to defend themselves physically, and/or who are timid and unassertive.

Granted these are extremes, but as I've said elsewhere... it is well known that predatory men prey not only on women, but on other men who are smaller/weaker/less assertive. An examination of prison populations is very enlightening.

My point is simply that this is not a concern that is entirely exclusive to women.

 

[StandUpChuck]

Um... not so much really.

There are men who weigh 110 lbs, and there are men who are 300 lbs of solid muscle. That's a massive difference in physicality.

There are men (including men in the military) who are well-trained professional killers who can destroy other men with their bare hands. There are men (including men in the military) who have no slightest clue how to defend themselves physically, and/or who are timid and unassertive.

Granted these are extremes, but as I've said elsewhere... it is well known that predatory men prey not only on women, but on other men who are smaller/weaker/less assertive. An examination of prison populations is very enlightening.

My point is simply that this is not a concern that is entirely exclusive to women.

No, I don't think it's exclusive to women however, it's a fact of everyday life that men become a little wild around naked women. Do you deny that one of the first things that pops into a man's head around a nude (or even semi nude woman) is sex? I could look at a naked man and sex might not even cross my mind. I'd probably think he needs some ab work.

But I have no idea if gay guys have their minds on sex like that. I would imagine that straight men are so repulsed by the thought that if the 300 pound gay dude started coming onto the 100 pound girly man in the communal shower, he'd get a shampoo bottle up his arse by the bystanders. It would be highly unlikely that the other guys would cheer it on or even put up with it. However, in a female/male situation, it's possible that at the very least vulgar and demeaning comments would not only fly around, they'd be encouraged.

No joke, I'm sitting here in the porch while my son is playing with some friends. One of those kids will likely realize he's gay at some point in the near future. So I decided to ask myself this question in terms of my son. As these kids get older, would I be comfortable with this boy sleeping over in my son's room? The first thing that bothers me is that my kid would probably punch him in the nose if he ever made a pass. I'm not so much worried about the come on, as the reaction. My kid would get labeled a homophobe and a bully.

In prison, all opinions change. I would not, could not shower with other women in prison. I trust in other circumstances, people have stronger impulse control.

 

[Caine]

Then you shouldn't join the military, because you'll have to let a bunch of guys see your naked body. If that's an issue for you, don't join the military. Or go to a gym

I was stating that to prove a point.
I already served my time.

 

[Caine]

You're assuming that someone would be sexually attracted to you simply because they're gay.

Poor form.

Your assuming someone would be sexually attracted to you simply because they are male.

Poor form.

 

[Pal]

I have a question for those who are claiming that this is a double standard, what is the solution in your mind? Have seperate showers for the gay recruits? That's impractical and all of the things you're concerned about, attraction/close quarters/physical differences, would all still exist in the gay showers. Or maybe you'd just have the gay men shower with the straight women, and have the gay women shower with the straight men. That would only ensure that the gay recruits weren't attracted to anyone, and I have a feeling you'd get a lot of opposition from the gay women.

There is literally no way to divide everyone up so that there's no chance for attraction. The only way you could ensure that no one was being attracted to anyone else would be to keep gays out of the military all together, and even if we regretably did for whatever reason regress that far as a society, gay people would continue to serve in secret as they have always done.

Regardless of whether this is an issue or not, it's one that doesn't really have a solution. Someone is going to have to get over their insecurities one way or another.

 

[rathi]

Regarding the bolded sentence: if gays are allowed to serve, and are allowed to be openly gay, there might indeed be some issues. Perhaps some or most of these issues won't be because of gays "flouting their gayness", but because of soldiers who have issues with sharing intimately crowded conditions with openly gay soldiers.

For soldiers that have been showering together for some time I doubt it, although it may be an issue with new recruits.

The fact that they have these issues shouldn't be swept under the rug with a simplistic "oh, they need to grow up and get over their homophobia".

That is exactly the correct response. What do you think we said to the racists upon integration? Soldiers can dislike gays all they like as long as they still perform their duties. If they can't handle it, its their own problem.

Combat readiness and unit cohesion are more important within the military than social
justice.

Good point. The thousands of soldiers we have lost from DADT are worth more than some insecure guys feelings.

. I'd just like to be more sure that this isn't going to cause problems before we do it... possibly the current generation isn't ready for this change? I'd rather see such change put off for another 10-20 years than see it implemented in a way that might impair the military's operational effectiveness.

High school kids can operate fine with openly gay communal showers, you think military men are less disciplined? Soldiers are trained to overcome their very rational fear of death, I doubt their fear of the communal showering will prove a more difficult challenge.

 

[Goshin]

For soldiers that have been showering together for some time I doubt it, although it may be an issue with new recruits.



That is exactly the correct response. What do you think we said to the racists upon integration? Soldiers can dislike gays all they like as long as they still perform their duties. If they can't handle it, its their own problem.




Good point. The thousands of soldiers we have lost from DADT are worth more than some insecure guys feelings.



High school kids can operate fine with openly gay communal showers, you think military men are less disciplined? Soldiers are trained to overcome their very rational fear of death, I doubt their fear of the communal showering will prove a more difficult challenge.

Perhaps you're right and it won't be a problem; I hope so, since it looks like a done deal. I've been making counterpoints and exposing the double standard in order to keep the debate going and see what people would say. I do think there is a double standard, but on reflection there may be some reason for it... to continue in that vein...

No, I don't think it's exclusive to women however, it's a fact of everyday life that men become a little wild around naked women. Do you deny that one of the first things that pops into a man's head around a nude (or even semi nude woman) is sex? I could look at a naked man and sex might not even cross my mind. I'd probably think he needs some ab work.

But I have no idea if gay guys have their minds on sex like that. I would imagine that straight men are so repulsed by the thought that if the 300 pound gay dude started coming onto the 100 pound girly man in the communal shower, he'd get a shampoo bottle up his arse by the bystanders. It would be highly unlikely that the other guys would cheer it on or even put up with it. However, in a female/male situation, it's possible that at the very least vulgar and demeaning comments would not only fly around, they'd be encouraged.

No joke, I'm sitting here in the porch while my son is playing with some friends. One of those kids will likely realize he's gay at some point in the near future. So I decided to ask myself this question in terms of my son. As these kids get older, would I be comfortable with this boy sleeping over in my son's room? The first thing that bothers me is that my kid would probably punch him in the nose if he ever made a pass. I'm not so much worried about the come on, as the reaction. My kid would get labeled a homophobe and a bully.

In prison, all opinions change. I would not, could not shower with other women in prison. I trust in other circumstances, people have stronger impulse control.

Chuck, you make some good points there in a very honest and open post, and yes I absolutely understand why most women would not care to take communal showers with men. I agree that it makes perfect sense. I just think people could be a tiny bit more understanding about men who have similar feelings about showering communally with gay men... but perhaps it isn't as much of an issue, I don't have any experiences to use as examples. :shrug:

Let's look again at one thing though...

So I decided to ask myself this question in terms of my son. As these kids get older, would I be comfortable with this boy sleeping over in my son's room? The first thing that bothers me is that my kid would probably punch him in the nose if he ever made a pass. I'm not so much worried about the come on, as the reaction. My kid would get labeled a homophobe and a bully.

Kudos again for speaking plainly and honestly. You recognize that the default reaction that a lot of young men or teenage boys have, to being propositioned in a gay way, is to reject the advances in a very emphatic, or even violent, manner. It is true that many straight men, especially young ones, have a seemingly instinctive revulsion to such advances and feel compelled to demonstrate their revulsion strongly.

Okay, we can learn to control this reaction. My point is that you recognize it as being a probable and almost instinctive response for many young men to being surprised in this manner... is it so bizarre that some of us worry that young soldiers 18-22 might overreact? What percentage?

I just wish we knew more about how this issue is going to play out before imposing it, but apparently they aren't going to wait.

Maybe it will be handled well, and the soldiers will exhibit great discipline and there won't be any major problems... I hope so, I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

[1069]

Apparently, up to one in ten boys is gay.
They have moms, too. And their moms probably worry about them.

 

[missypea]

Your assuming someone would be sexually attracted to you simply because they are male.

Poor form.

Not what I said.

:thumbdown

 

[FilmFestGuy]

I've been thinking... instead of having showers and lockerrooms labeled "Men" and "Women", maybe we should just label them:







...instead. :lamo

All you're going to do is end up with about the same number of gays in each of the showers.

You yourself just mentioned in another hypothetical that some gay mean are huge and tough and some straight guys are small and wimpy.

Although, if you're worried about rape, it's going to occur in the Major Badass showers much more frequently than it would in the Wimpy showers.

Rape is aggression; not sex. Sex is USED as a tool for aggression.

Especially in male rape cases. 90% of all perps in male rape cases identify as straight. 50% of the victims identify as gay or bisexual (stats from National Center for Victims of Crime) while the other 50% identify as straight.

The people who should be worried in the shower are the gay men; not the straight men.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

I was stating that to prove a point.
I already served my time.

Then you already showered with a gay dude without incident.

Why are you worried about it now?