Should Soldiers Be Considered Heros?

[LiberalAvenger]

absolutely not. Patrick Henry said that a standing army is "dangerous to liberty". I agree with him. "Live by the sword and die by the sword" is not my bag.

My drill sergeant used to ask us during traing, 'WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF HAND TO HAND COMBAT?"

We would all answer back, 'TO KILL, SERGEANT!"

What's heroic about killing?

Too many of the troops are returningg suffering from PTSD. Let's not repeat the history of the Roman empire!

 

[Oozlefinch]

absolutely not. Patrick Henry said that a standing army is "dangerous to liberty". I agree with him. "Live by the sword and die by the sword" is not my bag.

Of course, it also helps to put things into the perspective of the times.

During the time of the American Revolution, the only real purpose of the "Standing Army" was to keep the subject of the British Empire in check, so they would not revolt against their King and the Empire. So unless you are trying to claim that the purpose of the military today is to ensure the subjection of the American people by their Government, the comparison and use of this does not compare.

And the claims of "PTSD" are so over-hyped it is not even funny. I know guys who never served outside of the US who have claimed that they have "PTSD". it has largely become a joke, simply because those that claim it know they have a chance of getting benefits when they get out.

 

[LiberalAvenger]

Of course, it also helps to put things into the perspective of the times.

During the time of the American Revolution, the only real purpose of the "Standing Army" was to keep the subject of the British Empire in check, so they would not revolt against their King and the Empire. So unless you are trying to claim that the purpose of the military today is to ensure the subjection of the American people by their Government, the comparison and use of this does not compare.

And the claims of "PTSD" are so over-hyped it is not even funny. I know guys who never served outside of the US who have claimed that they have "PTSD". it has largely become a joke, simply because those that claim it know they have a chance of getting benefits when they get out.

It's in the contitution that one of the duties of our military is to "quell public insurrections."

PTSD cases are well documented. Any veteran's hospital doctor will tell you that. Of course there are some false claims but that doesn't change the reality of the problem.

 

[Oozlefinch]

It's in the contitution that one of the duties of our military is to "quell public insurrections."

Not quite true. Article 1, section 8:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

And if you look very closely, that is a power of the Legislature.

Believe it or not, our military has no powers under the Constitution. All powers are reserved to the States, and the 3 branches of Government (Executive, Legislative and Judiciary).

Come on, this is US Government 101 stuff here.

PTSD cases are well documented. Any veteran's hospital doctor will tell you that. Of course there are some false claims but that doesn't change the reality of the problem.

I have not said they do not exist, simply not to the degree that some would like you to believe.

Just like the over-hyped and largely fraudulent "Homeless Veteran" crisis that people have been whining about for years. Funny, but every time the VA shows up to a "Veteran Stand-down" and asks for SSNs so they can get them into real homeless shelters and job programs, almost all of those "homeless veterans" kinda dissapear.

 

[LiberalAvenger]

Not quite true. Article 1, section 8:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

And if you look very closely, that is a power of the Legislature.

Believe it or not, our military has no powers under the Constitution. All powers are reserved to the States, and the 3 branches of Government (Executive, Legislative and Judiciary).

Come on, this is US Government 101 stuff here.



I have not said they do not exist, simply not to the degree that some would like you to believe.

Just like the over-hyped and largely fraudulent "Homeless Veteran" crisis that people have been whining about for years. Funny, but every time the VA shows up to a "Veteran Stand-down" and asks for SSNs so they can get them into real homeless shelters and job programs, almost all of those "homeless veterans" kinda dissapear.

J never claimed that the military was a branch of government.

Show me where I said that. Are you saying that the militia is not a military force?

Of course the military has power when duly directed by officials in the constitution.

As for homeless veterans your argument sounds like a right wing radio host. I don; buy it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

J never claimed that the military was a branch of government.

Show me where I said that. Are you saying that the militia is not a military force?

It's in the contitution that one of the duties of our military is to "quell public insurrections."

And sorry, I used to work with an organization that tried to reach out to Homeless Veterans. And yes, I even lived for a while in their facility.

The biggest problem tended to be one of two things. First was in actually getting veterans in the first place. We used to get people come in all the time, who could not prove they ever served. Every applicant was verified with the VA, and a lot of applicants once they learned this simply walked away.

I was a volunteer at a LA "Veteran Stand Down" in 2002. This was a 5 day event, the first 2 for checking in individuals, and getting them fed, cleaned up, and clean clothes. The second day is where the things like medical checks with the VA and records searches so we could get them into appropriate programs started.

By the 3rd day, we had less then half the numbers we did the first. And talking to some of the VA reps, they said an amazing number of applications came back either with bogus information, or that the individuals were never in uniform in the first place.

It should be no surprise that most of those who hold "Homeless Vet" signs are fakes. I have run across to many it no longer even surprises me. In fact, it is the rare surprise when I meet one that appears to be real. I have seen 45 year old guys claiming to be Vietnam Vets. I have met guys who were part of the "Invasion of Iraq" in 1990. I have met guys from units that do not exist, and from bases that are totally wrong.

But there are "Veteran Stand Downs" all over the country, all the time. Both local, regional, and national. And there are a great many programs available, both Governmental and Non-profit.

U.S.VETS - Providing Veteran Services Including Housing, Job Training & Counseling - Veterans Services: Housing, Job Training, Counseling

You seem to think it is "right wing radio". However, as a former homeless vet, I can assure it was not. I would be surprised if 1 in 10 "Homeless Vets" I talked to were real. Heck, a few weeks ago I ran into another one, who was with "8th Marines, at Camp Pendleton".

Of course one of my favorites of all time is the one who told me he was part of "Special Services". I always laugh when I remember that one.

 

[LiberalAvenger]

excellent. I believe and agree with you. When it comes to getting government money it is aas Jimmy Durante used to say, "Everybody wants to get into the act"

 

[Oozlefinch]

excellent. I believe and agree with you. When it comes to getting government money it is aas Jimmy Durante used to say, "Everybody wants to get into the act"

Actually, most of them are far to smart to try and take it from the Government itself. Almost all of those with signs are trying to get money instead from those foolish enough to believe them and give them money themselves.

That is why at most "Stand Downs", you see a large turn-out the first days, which drops off afterwards. These are just bums who want something for nothing. The moment the VA gets involved, most tend to melt away.

 

[MarineTpartier]

excellent. I believe and agree with you. When it comes to getting government money it is aas Jimmy Durante used to say, "Everybody wants to get into the act"

More people should be like you bro. When they see a good point, they recognize it, compliment it, and move on. Most would try to continue to argument by moving the goal posts or arguing semantics. Good on ya.

 

[Superfly]

I'm the wife of a 20 year Army retiree, and we both feel the same way. To overuse the word "hero" lessens its importance. Soldiers, cops, firefighters, etc - they are brave in what they do, but being brave isn't the same as being a hero. The fireman who rushes into a burning building to save someone is a hero. The fireman who cooks dinner isn't a hero. A hero is defined by what he does, not who he is.

 

[MarineTpartier]

I'm the wife of a 20 year Army retiree, and we both feel the same way. To overuse the word "hero" lessens its importance. Soldiers, cops, firefighters, etc - they are brave in what they do, but being brave isn't the same as being a hero. The fireman who rushes into a burning building to save someone is a hero. The fireman who cooks dinner isn't a hero. A hero is defined by what he does, not who he is.

Well said. I've never heard it put that way but it makes perfect sense.

 

[Superfly]

Well said. I've never heard it put that way but it makes perfect sense.

thanks. :2wave:

 

[Oozlefinch]

I'm the wife of a 20 year Army retiree, and we both feel the same way. To overuse the word "hero" lessens its importance. Soldiers, cops, firefighters, etc - they are brave in what they do, but being brave isn't the same as being a hero. The fireman who rushes into a burning building to save someone is a hero. The fireman who cooks dinner isn't a hero. A hero is defined by what he does, not who he is.

I agree. However, quite often we have little choice as to if we are put into that position in the first place. A cop may serve 20 years, and never have the chance to draw his pistol other then on the range. Somebody in the military may serve 20 years, and never have the chance to make a more important decision then "how many cartridges of toner should I order?"

However, I still place these individuals above most others, because they made the conscious choice to choose a profession where that might have happened. Granted, most times there job is no more dangerous then working at McDonalds. But on the times that is is more dangerous, it is way more dangerous.

 

[lpast]

I'm the wife of a 20 year Army retiree, and we both feel the same way. To overuse the word "hero" lessens its importance. Soldiers, cops, firefighters, etc - they are brave in what they do, but being brave isn't the same as being a hero. The fireman who rushes into a burning building to save someone is a hero. The fireman who cooks dinner isn't a hero. A hero is defined by what he does, not who he is.

Perfect, I totally agree...

 

[Leo]

I'm the wife of a 20 year Army retiree, and we both feel the same way. To overuse the word "hero" lessens its importance. Soldiers, cops, firefighters, etc - they are brave in what they do, but being brave isn't the same as being a hero. The fireman who rushes into a burning building to save someone is a hero. The fireman who cooks dinner isn't a hero. A hero is defined by what he does, not who he is.

That is precisely what a number of posters have been trying to say. Congratulations on getting your message through. I agree with you totally.

 

[Superfly]

I agree. However, quite often we have little choice as to if we are put into that position in the first place. A cop may serve 20 years, and never have the chance to draw his pistol other then on the range. Somebody in the military may serve 20 years, and never have the chance to make a more important decision then "how many cartridges of toner should I order?"

However, I still place these individuals above most others, because they made the conscious choice to choose a profession where that might have happened. Granted, most times there job is no more dangerous then working at McDonalds. But on the times that is is more dangerous, it is way more dangerous.

But see - ordering those toner cartridges doesn't make him a hero. It makes him a soldier who ordered toner cartridges.

3 different guys in Aurora, Colorado, sheilded their girlfriends with their bodies last week. They died so their girlfriends could live. Those guys are heroes.

 

[Cameron]

Should Soldiers Be Considered Heros?

It depends on what they are fighting for and how they do it. Overseas wars can be important to further American interests. Whether our past few have in fact furthered our interests, though, is a debatable point.

 

[MarineTpartier]

But see - ordering those toner cartridges doesn't make him a hero. It makes him a soldier who ordered toner cartridges.

3 different guys in Aurora, Colorado, sheilded their girlfriends with their bodies last week. They died so their girlfriends could live. Those guys are heroes.

Agreed. I teared up when I heard those guys had done that. What I gained from that is even though so many commentators and politicians who grew up in the 60's era demonize this generation for being uninformed/lazy/distracted, those three young men from this generation did something far more heroic than most of those draft dodging intellectuals will ever do.

 

[Leo]

Agreed. I teared up when I heard those guys had done that. What I gained from that is even though so many commentators and politicians who grew up in the 60's era demonize this generation for being uninformed/lazy/distracted, those three young men from this generation did something far more heroic than most of those draft dodging intellectuals will ever do.

Good post. I remember reading an article about the Battle of Britain, and about how the young men of the 1930's were regarded as generally lazy, dissolute, and pleasure seeking. The average age of a Battle of Britain fighter pilot was 19-20, and the average life expectancy of an inexperienced fighter pilot during the battle was something like six weeks. Yet 18-19 year olds from the Public Schools, and the local comprehensives, queued up to join the RAF. Many did not see their 19th or 20th birthdays. The young men of America would have done no less under similar circumstances. We judge and generalise at the cost of reality.

 

[Oozlefinch]

3 different guys in Aurora, Colorado, sheilded their girlfriends with their bodies last week. They died so their girlfriends could live. Those guys are heroes.

And 2 of them were Sailors. John Larimer and Jonathan Blunk were in the Navy, and Jesse Childress in the Air Force.

Fmr. Coronado sailor among the theater shooting victims - San Diego, California Talk Radio Station - 760 KFMB AM - 760kfmb

As for Mr. Blunk, the person he shielded was just a friend, and there are reports that he was actually trying to take the gun from the shooter when he was killed. The same for Jesse Childress, he was just protecting a friend, not a girlfriend.

 

[Superfly]

And 2 of them were Sailors. John Larimer and Jonathan Blunk were in the Navy, and Jesse Childress in the Air Force.

Fmr. Coronado sailor among the theater shooting victims - San Diego, California Talk Radio Station - 760 KFMB AM - 760kfmb

As for Mr. Blunk, the person he shielded was just a friend, and there are reports that he was actually trying to take the gun from the shooter when he was killed. The same for Jesse Childress, he was just protecting a friend, not a girlfriend.

As far as the person Mr. Blunk saved as being only a friend, the report that I read said that he was with his girlfriend, and he shielded her from the bullets. The other two men who died shielding their girlfriends were 27 year old Matt McQuinn and 24 year old Alex Teves. As far as Mr. Blunk being in the Navy, that's fantastic. Mr. Teves was a grad student. Matt McQuinn worked at Target.

Obviously, the fact that the three you mentioned are military is irrelevant. The fact is that those three men used their body as a sheild to protect someone they loved, and that kind of split-second heroism is something you are born with - not something you are taught, and not something that the military, or anything else, can give you.

 

[Crossroads]

As far as the original topic of this thread goes, I'm sick of people telling me I HAVE to respect our troops (in reference to the post-draft era). WHY? If they voluntarily signed up for something that I do not agree with, why the heck should I respect that decision? Either they are doing it for some misguided sense of patriotism, or some WRONG ideas on the wars we are fighting, OR just doing it for the money, training and college aid etc. The last one I actually respect A LITTLE due to the fact it makes the most sense. I still think its terribly sad when they die and get badly injured. I still get very emotional about it, but thats how I feel about any decent normal human being who has the same kind of thing happen to them.

 

[Ikari]

With the United States not having been invaded since 1812, and millions of civilians having been killed in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq. We also spend about 750 billion on defense against middle easterners with ak-47s. I am tired of people yelling out ignorantly how we should support our troops. When they fight these useless wars(Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada). All for political gain and also another factor is the military industrial complex. All the companies that build the tanks, body armour, fighter jets, rifles ect... Do you think we should glorify war and our soldiers as hero's?

Soldiers can be heroes. Perchance one could say that being a soldier doesn't necessarily make you a hero in and of itself, but neither does it bar it.

 

[Leo]

Soldiers can be heroes. Perchance one could say that being a soldier doesn't necessarily make you a hero in and of itself, but neither does it bar it.

You are arguing against a stance which I have not seen announced on these pages. No one has said that soldiers cannot be heroes - that would be a nonsense. The view held by many people, including myself, is that simply serving in the armed forces does not qualify one for hero status. Performing heroic acts, whether one is a soldier or not, does.

One may respect people for choosing a career essential to the security of the nation, as I do, but to consider every man who serves in the military a hero ipso facto, detracts from the respect due to those who perform genuinely heroic deeds (often at the cost of their lives).

 

[Ikari]

You are arguing against a stance which I have not seen announced on these pages.

That may have something to do with the fact that I was responding to the OP and not 23 pages of replies. Which is perhaps why it was quoted in my post. Maybe.

No one has said that soldiers cannot be heroes - that would be a nonsense. The view held by many people, including myself, is that simply serving in the armed forces does not qualify one for hero status. Performing heroic acts, whether one is a soldier or not, does.

One may respect people for choosing a career essential to the security of the nation, as I do, but to consider every man who serves in the military a hero ipso facto, detracts from the respect due to those who perform genuinely heroic deeds (often at the cost of their lives).

And if you read my post, you'd see my opinion is of this as well.