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Should Soldiers Be Considered Heros?

You are factually incorrect.

History of the Army National Guard

Highlights from the above link...
Your statistics for Korea show ~140k troops. By comparison ...
As of April 2006, over 39,000 Guardsmen were serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom (139,733 to date), 14,000 in Operation Enduring Freedom (37,700 to date), and 652 in Operation Noble Eagle. Since 9-11, over 248,000 Soldiers have been mobilized under USC Title 10 authority (federal orders) and over 337,000 under Title 10 or Title 32 (federal and state orders).
http://www.ng.mil/media/factsheets/ARNG_Factsheet_May_06.pdf


... well over 175k Guardsmen had been sent to the Middle East as of 2005, which only accounts for 3/9 years in Iraq and 4/11 (so far) in Afghanistan. I'm still looking for a more recent count of Guard involvement.
 
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Sorry, but you are wrong here. Very wrong.

The National Guard has been involved in just about every conflict the US has ever been involved in. And yes, the National Guard was called up before then. I went to high school with 2 brothers, and both joined the National Guard. Both were deployed in 1990, and both were killed while deployed (one in a vehicle accident, the other in a warehouse accident). The National Guard has been involved in every conflict since it was officially created. That includes the Spanish-American War, World Wars I and II, Korea, and Vietnam. And huge numbers were called up during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

About the only ones they did not participate in were small scale conflicts where they were not needed, or conflicts that were so short there was no time to get them activated in time.
Not solid numbers but a telling description ...

Has fought in every American war, from the 1600s to present combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. At one point in 2005, Army National Guard brigades made up more than 50% of U.S. Army combat brigades in Iraq, the Army Guard’s largest combat role since WWII.
http://www.ng.mil/media/factsheets/2011/ARNG History Mar 11.pdf


As I stated earlier, and you ignored, it wasn't that the Guard had never been called up - it was the scale of the involvement this time that made the difference. If you'd just stop to think about it you'd see why, too. There was a draw-down in forces in the late 90's. So how in the hell did we just jump into a two front war without a draft? By using the crap out of the Reserve and Guard forces - duh! What other choice was there??
 
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As I stated earlier, and you ignored, it wasn't that the Guard had never been called up - it was the scale of the involvement this time that made the difference. If you'd just stop to think about it you'd see why, too. There was a draw-down in forces in the late 90's. So how in the hell did we just jump into a two front war without a draft? By using the crap out of the Reserve and Guard forces - duh! What other choice was there??

It is not that I ignored it, I guess I just saw it as something obvious. About half of the military is the Reserves and National Guard. So of course if we are going to get into any major conflict, they are going to be called up. About the only real multi service conflicts in the last 40 years I can think of where they were not was Grenada and Panama. And those were both pretty much over within a month. But they have been called up for other potential conflicts, like the Cuban Missile Crisis. For that crisis 24 Nar Force and Air National Guard squadrons were recalled to active duty, to start training and preparing for possible conflict. And the command center for the guard and reserves was fully activated, with units on a 4 hour recall alert. If the Soviets had not blinked, the plan was to start activating them on 1 November (they were still scrambling over the logistics of housing, transportation and food stocks, that is why the activation was delayed a week).

The very reason for the Guard and Reserves is to be called up in the event of an emergency. Wars, hurricanes, and the like. Over 18,000 National Guard and Reserve troops were sent to Louisianna and Mississippi after Katrina. So of course the Guard and Reserve is going to "have the crap used out of it", that is it's job.
 
It is not that I ignored it, I guess I just saw it as something obvious. About half of the military is the Reserves and National Guard. So of course if we are going to get into any major conflict, they are going to be called up. About the only real multi service conflicts in the last 40 years I can think of where they were not was Grenada and Panama. And those were both pretty much over within a month. But they have been called up for other potential conflicts, like the Cuban Missile Crisis. For that crisis 24 Nar Force and Air National Guard squadrons were recalled to active duty, to start training and preparing for possible conflict. And the command center for the guard and reserves was fully activated, with units on a 4 hour recall alert. If the Soviets had not blinked, the plan was to start activating them on 1 November (they were still scrambling over the logistics of housing, transportation and food stocks, that is why the activation was delayed a week).

The very reason for the Guard and Reserves is to be called up in the event of an emergency. Wars, hurricanes, and the like. Over 18,000 National Guard and Reserve troops were sent to Louisianna and Mississippi after Katrina. So of course the Guard and Reserve is going to "have the crap used out of it", that is it's job.
You can't just say,

"I'm sorry, you were right. The Guard was used on a scale unseen since WWII." :roll:
 
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You can't just say,

"I'm sorry, you were right. The Guard was used on a scale unseen since WWII." :roll:
I've thought this, but wasn't going to say it... until now.

Why are you still harping on this? The gist of your original point was that present use of the NG was unprecedented. Period. You were shown to be factually incorrect, and to your credit you did say "I stand corrected". But you couldn't leave it at that. You clearly feel some need to salvage something to save face and have degenerated to arguing precise scale and percentages and the such, when in fact they've all been large scale, just not the same scale.

Why can't YOU just let it go?

:roll:, indeed.
 
Heroes are heroes. Those who aren't, aren't.
 
I've thought this, but wasn't going to say it... until now.

Why are you still harping on this? The gist of your original point was that present use of the NG was unprecedented. Period. You were shown to be factually incorrect, and to your credit you did say "I stand corrected". But you couldn't leave it at that. You clearly feel some need to salvage something to save face and have degenerated to arguing precise scale and percentages and the such, when in fact they've all been large scale, just not the same scale.

Why can't YOU just let it go?

:roll:, indeed.
It wasn't particularly large scale - and that's the whole point. It's common knowledge that some Guard units are used during wartime. What was uncommon until ten years ago was the number of Guard units that were used. It was so out of the ordinary that it even made the news at the time. Apparently you have all forgotten that, or maybe it's more precise to say you'd like to forget it. I support the military but I do not support lying and misdirection except as needed for national security. PR for a war isn't pro-military or national security - it's political bull****.


I proved my point two posts ago and both of you could have left it at that. Why didn't you?
Did YOU "feel some need to salvage something to save face"? :roll:
 
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It wasn't particularly large scale - and that's the whole point. It's common knowledge that some Guard units are used during wartime. What was uncommon until ten years ago was the number of Guard units that were used. It was so out of the ordinary that it even made the news at the time. Apparently you have all forgotten that, or maybe it's more precise to say you'd like to forget it. I support the military but I do not support lying and misdirection except as needed for national security. PR for a war isn't pro-military or national security - it's political bull****.

Do I really need to go back and pull out your original statement? *sigh* I guess I do...
I'm sorry but I have to side with SmokeAndMirrors on this one. Prior to Iraq II the National Guard was just not used for overseas duty. Hell, why do you think so many Richie Rich Boys joined the Guard during Vietnam? While there have been isolated instances over the years of Guard units being put on active duty it's been very, very rare until this past decade.

It's one thing to expect war if you join the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, or the reserves for those branches and it's quite another when you join the National Guard. Someone who joined the Guard prior to 2004 before we started calling them up for overseas duty has every right to be pissed off because it had never been done on such a scale before now. At this point the cats out of the bag, so to speak, so no one should get fooled like that again but I certainly can't blame the people who joined the Guard prior to 2004 - instead of the Reserves - and then got shafted by an unprecedented change in SOP from Uncle Sam.
 
Qualities like courage, fortitude, or grit are examples heroism, in the last twenty years soldiers, sailors, and airmen have pretty much for the most part stayed deployed; that they took an oath and served anyways, knowing that there's a better chance than not they're going to get deployed is an example of courage.

Factor in skill identifiers like airborne, air assault, or Ranger schools and the meaning of the word "fortitude" is exemplified. Spend years away from your friends and family being deployed to some of the planet's most inhospitable locations and the meaning of the word "grit" is exemplified.

In the end "hero" is just a word determined by subjective inclinations - sometimes the meaning is more refined for some as it is more vague for others. Best bet, if you really wanna know the answer for sure - join the military and find out for yourself, leave conjecture, innuendoes, and hearsay out of your decision making process.
 
Do I really need to go back and pull out your original statement? *sigh* I guess I do...
*sigh* Did you really ignore the part of my assertions you didn't like? I guess you did *sigh*

so we'll quote it again with my emphasis instead of yours ...
I'm sorry but I have to side with SmokeAndMirrors on this one. Prior to Iraq II the National Guard was just not used for overseas duty. Hell, why do you think so many Richie Rich Boys joined the Guard during Vietnam? While there have been isolated instances over the years of Guard units being put on active duty it's been very, very rare until this past decade.

It's one thing to expect war if you join the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, or the reserves for those branches and it's quite another when you join the National Guard. Someone who joined the Guard prior to 2004 before we started calling them up for overseas duty has every right to be pissed off because it had never been done on such a scale before now. At this point the cats out of the bag, so to speak, so no one should get fooled like that again but I certainly can't blame the people who joined the Guard prior to 2004 - instead of the Reserves - and then got shafted by an unprecedented change in SOP from Uncle Sam.
After which you corrected me and I amended my statement ...

You are factually incorrect.

History of the Army National Guard

Highlights from the above link...
I stand corrected - it had not been done on such a scale since WWII.
... and you guys still insisted I was wrong so you can argue with the National Guard instead of me, now.
National Guard document said:
Has fought in every American war, from the 1600s to present combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. At one point in 2005, Army National Guard brigades made up more than 50% of U.S. Army combat brigades in Iraq, the Army Guard’s largest combat role since WWII.
http://www.ng.mil/media/factsheets/2011/ARNG History Mar 11.pdf


Case closed.
 
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Only if they have done something heroic.

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."

John F. Kennedy
 
*sign* Ignore the part you don't like ...
You're backtracking, still, but I'll play along. Using your own quote...
I'm sorry but I have to side with SmokeAndMirrors on this one. Prior to Iraq II the National Guard was just not used for overseas duty. Hell, why do you think so many Richie Rich Boys joined the Guard during Vietnam? While there have been isolated instances over the years of Guard units being put on active duty it's been very, very rare until this past decade.

It's one thing to expect war if you join the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, or the reserves for those branches and it's quite another when you join the National Guard. Someone who joined the Guard prior to 2004 before we started calling them up for overseas duty has every right to be pissed off because it had never been done on such a scale before now. At this point the cats out of the bag, so to speak, so no one should get fooled like that again but I certainly can't blame the people who joined the Guard prior to 2004 - instead of the Reserves - and then got shafted by an unprecedented change in SOP from Uncle Sam.
Which is it?

1) "...just not used...",
2) "...very, very rare...", or
3) used, but "...on such a scale..."?

It can't be all three. It can't be even two of the three.

I'm presuming you will pick Option 3, as you seem to consider that your "get out of jail free" card, so, to avoid needless circular arguments, please define exactly what YOU think the cut-off point for "large scale" is. Percent? Raw numbers? Does it need to be a majority? A sizable minority?
 
If we call everybody who ever wore a uniform a hero, then what do we call this guy?

[video]http://www.audiemurphy.com/decorations.htm[/video]
 
You're backtracking, still, but I'll play along. Using your own quote...

Which is it?

1) "...just not used...",
2) "...very, very rare...", or
3) used, but "...on such a scale..."?

It can't be all three. It can't be even two of the three.

I'm presuming you will pick Option 3, as you seem to consider that your "get out of jail free" card, so, to avoid needless circular arguments, please define exactly what YOU think the cut-off point for "large scale" is. Percent? Raw numbers? Does it need to be a majority? A sizable minority?
Since we were talking about a young person enlisting in the Guard we should consider it at their level. Where would this "common knowledge" of "large scale Guard use" come from??? History books on Korea? - Don't make me laugh. Contemporaries? No way. Mother/father, aunt/uncle, friends of mother/father?!? Again, funny stories - didn't happen. There was no common knowledge like that and you know it because it hadn't happened within memory of anyone those young people would have regular contact with.



Ed:
But like I also said, I wouldn't even call the recruiter a liar for saying it never happened - and I wouldn't call him a liar for the same reasons. How would he possibly know what was coming or what Uncle Sam would decide to do about it?
 
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Since we were talking about a young person enlisting in the Guard we should consider it at their level. Where would this "common knowledge" of "large scale Guard use" come from??? History books on Korea? - Don't make me laugh. Contemporaries? No way. Mother/father, aunt/uncle, friends of mother/father?!? Again, funny stories - didn't happen. There was no common knowledge like that and you know it because it hadn't happened within memory of anyone those young people would have regular contact with.
1) Fair point regarding age context, to a point, but you then slip into what I said in a previous post when I said the facts were not common knowledge, in large part because it wasn't (for the most part) in recent common experience... Gulf War I notwithstanding. Even you said "...just not used..." at one point, which is a pretty definitive statement regardless any later qualifications. Common "knowledge" is often incorrect, as it was here regarding historical NG use.

2) You didn't address my questions.
 
1) Fair point regarding age context, to a point, but you then slip into what I said in a previous post when I said the facts were not common knowledge, in large part because it wasn't (for the most part) in recent common experience... Gulf War I notwithstanding. Even you said "...just not used..." at one point, which is a pretty definitive statement regardless any later qualifications. Common "knowledge" is often incorrect, as it was here regarding historical NG use.

2) You didn't address my questions.
You're right - I did not take all of history into account because the young people we were talking about would not be looking at that. (Why do you think I left WWII out at first even though I sure as hell knew better even before you said anything?) The role of the National Guard in any war isn't even in HS history books - nor 101 college level, either, I'd bet - but anyone who's read anything about WWII knows that everyone that could hold a damn rifle (and couldn't be used for R&D at home) was sent into combat whether they were enlisted in 1941 or not. So, yes, it was not some history lesson of the Guard I was trying to argue, it was what the youngster would be expected to know. (And the Internet wasn't so ubiquitous prior to 2001 so no help from that source, either.)

It's too bad you didn't argue my - what would you call it? - "nebulous post" before now. If you were so unaware of what I was trying to say why didn't you say something about it on your first (second?) reply??? I thought I cleared it up when I amended it to "unprecedented since WWII" or whatever that exact wording was.
 
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You're right - I did not take all of history into account because the young people we were talking about would not be looking at that. (Why do you think I left WWII out at first even though I sure as hell knew better even before you said anything?) The role of the National Guard in any war isn't even in HS history books - nor 101 college level, either, I'd bet - but anyone who's read anything about WWII knows that everyone that could hold a damn rifle (and couldn't be used for R&D at home) was sent into combat whether they were enlisted in 1941 or not. So, yes, it was not some history lesson of the Guard I was trying to argue, it was what the youngster would be expected to know. (And the Internet wasn't so ubiquitous prior to 2001 so no help from that source, either.)

It's too bad you didn't argue my - what would you call it? - "nebulous post" before now. If you were so unaware of what I was trying to say why didn't you say something about it on your first (second?) reply??? I thought I cleared it up when I amended it to "unprecedented since WWII" or whatever that exact wording was.
I was picking my battles. Even though I felt you were being disingenuous in an effort to save face, I didn't feel it was necessary to go down that path... until you essentially accused the other person of doing what I felt you had been doing. Then, I felt the need to say something.

FWIW, I doubt the history books will specify the NG's involvement in today's wars, either. They will just talk about "the military"... of which the NG is.
 
With the United States not having been invaded since 1812, and millions of civilians having been killed in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq. We also spend about 750 billion on defense against middle easterners with ak-47s. I am tired of people yelling out ignorantly how we should support our troops. When they fight these useless wars(Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada). All for political gain and also another factor is the military industrial complex. All the companies that build the tanks, body armour, fighter jets, rifles ect... Do you think we should glorify war and our soldiers as hero's?

Mike, you are making some excellent points, but these are very sensitive issues in your culture - which appears to adulate the military - so you will receive some quite hostile responses from other Americans.

In order that I do not elicit the same responses, if I may, I would like to answer the question in the more general, and international, sense .

Allow me to point out that I am not without my own bias in this matter, as I am the only son of a highly decorated Guards officer, who died as the result of injuries sustained in the Gulf War. In addition to which, my family is a very old military one, whose service to the Crown predates the formation of your nation. So while I try to be objective about these things, it is not without some effort.

But taken in isolation - the question " Should Soldiers Be Considered Heroes?" (Kindly note that the plural of hero is not 'heros'. :mrgreen:) is relatively easy to answer. In common with a number of other posters here, I believe that only someone who does something genuinely heroic should be considered a hero. And this applies as much to postmen as it does to Major-Generals.

The question really does not involve 'supporting the troops' or respecting those who choose the military as a career. Nor does it involve the virtue or otherwise of the various conflicts in which the military are involved.

I share your concerns about the pointless wars which your nation, my nation, and many other nations have instigated, and your revulsion at the carnage wreaked upon helpless civilian populations. But these should not really be factors in the question of whether soldiers should be automatically considered as heroes whenever and wherever they serve.

Essentially, a military man who performs his duty correctly and with honour, should be respected, and one who hides behind his uniform to commit crimes against humanity should be reviled and prosecuted. Exactly the same standards should be applied to a policeman, or any other profession which enjoys authority and power.

And no, war is a terrible thing which represents a failure of the intellect, and as such, should never be glorified. But the mourning of the dead - the grief for fallen sons, lovers, husbands and fathers, and the paying of respect thereto, should not be confused with the glorification of conflict.
 
Mike, you are making some excellent points, but these are very sensitive issues in your culture - which appears to adulate the military - so you will receive some quite hostile responses from other Americans.
The question really does not involve 'supporting the troops' or respecting those who choose the military as a career. Nor does it involve the virtue or otherwise of the various conflicts in which the military are involved.

Essentially, a military man who performs his duty correctly and with honour, should be respected, and one who hides behind his uniform to commit crimes against humanity should be reviled and prosecuted. Exactly the same standards should be applied to a policeman, or any other profession which enjoys authority and power.

And no, war is a terrible thing which represents a failure of the intellect, and as such, should never be glorified. But the mourning of the dead - the grief for fallen sons, lovers, husbands and fathers, and the paying of respect thereto, should not be confused with the glorification of conflict.

I for one have always given great respect to those who make the willing choice to place themselves into harms way. They can be law enforcement, fire fighters, EMS personnel, or the military. The thing that sets them apart in my mind is that they purposefully made the choice to potentially put themselves in danger for the sake of others.

And I think you will find a pretty universal concensus among us military and former military that we treat those that dishonor the military and individuals with the utmost contempt. Myself, I have absolutely no pitty for anybody who knowingly commits a war crime. They are a disgrace to everything we stand for.

ANd the thing to remember is that the last 11 years have been an unusual time in our country. Typically, people can spend a 20 year career in the military and do nothing more dangerous then train for a possible war. From 1973-2001, the only conflict that involved any kind of significant numbers of the military was the 1990 Gulf War. And the actual war itself only lasted a few days for most of those involved.

Most members of the military are far more likely to be used either stateside or overseas doing disaster relief type operations. Huricanes, earthquakes, fires, floods, riots, that is most times is far more likely then going into combat.

During my 10 years in the Marines, I did several deployments, none for combat (but I was sitting on a runway once with a full combat load waiting to go into potential combat 2 different times, but both times it was cancelled). But I was sent out several other times, for 3 fires, 2 huricanes, and on stand by for riot control.
 
FWIW, I doubt the history books will specify the NG's involvement in today's wars, either. They will just talk about "the military"... of which the NG is.
I have no doubt you're right about that ...
 
I for one have always given great respect to those who make the willing choice to place themselves into harms way. They can be law enforcement, fire fighters, EMS personnel, or the military. The thing that sets them apart in my mind is that they purposefully made the choice to potentially put themselves in danger for the sake of others.

And I think you will find a pretty universal concensus among us military and former military that we treat those that dishonor the military and individuals with the utmost contempt. Myself, I have absolutely no pitty for anybody who knowingly commits a war crime. They are a disgrace to everything we stand for.

ANd the thing to remember is that the last 11 years have been an unusual time in our country. Typically, people can spend a 20 year career in the military and do nothing more dangerous then train for a possible war. From 1973-2001, the only conflict that involved any kind of significant numbers of the military was the 1990 Gulf War. And the actual war itself only lasted a few days for most of those involved.

Most members of the military are far more likely to be used either stateside or overseas doing disaster relief type operations. Huricanes, earthquakes, fires, floods, riots, that is most times is far more likely then going into combat.

During my 10 years in the Marines, I did several deployments, none for combat (but I was sitting on a runway once with a full combat load waiting to go into potential combat 2 different times, but both times it was cancelled). But I was sent out several other times, for 3 fires, 2 huricanes, and on stand by for riot control.

I respect your choice of career, as I do my dad's, and I have no doubt that you discharged your duties as an honourable military officer. I understand the role of the military in most developed countries, and what you are saying about its customary deployments. I am, however, wondering where your post addresses the question put in the OP. Is it your opinion that anyone who serves in the military, irrespective of heroic deeds, should thereby be considered a hero?

It is possible that when I have completed my education, I might follow in my father's footsteps, but should I so choose - it would not be prompted by a desire to put myself in harm's way for the sake of my nation. But rather the following of a family tradition, and the comfortable role in society of an officer and a gentleman, serving in one of Her Majesty's Guards regiments. Nothing too self-sacrificing or heroic about that! :)
 
Actually, nothing against Audie Murphy, but my favorite Army MOH winner will always be Alvin York.

Sergeant York "Over the Top" Battle Scene - YouTube
I only said *a* stud, not the #1 stud. :2razz:

Seriously, though, you can't go wrong with either.


During my 10 years in the Marines, I did several deployments, none for combat (but I was sitting on a runway once with a full combat load waiting to go into potential combat 2 different times, but both times it was cancelled). But I was sent out several other times, for 3 fires, 2 huricanes, and on stand by for riot control.
The only thing that happened when I served was Grenada. I was in Germany at the time. We went on full alert, for only a couple days, and Grenada was effectively over before they told us why we were on alert.
 
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