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Should Soldiers Be Considered Heros?

Oozlefinch

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Sometimes it is true that people dont know exactly what they are getting into. I mean at 18 years old you dont always think things through.

Over the last 5 years, I had a question that I would ask every young soldier after they had been in our unit for about a month.

"Is the Army what you thought it would be?"

And ya know what? Almost universally, they admit it was not. They expected it to be tougher, more like a permanent boot-camp with Sergeants yelling at them all the time, and spending weeks at a time in the field living out of tents. And that we only deploy once every 2-3 years. Almost every one was very shocked that it was not anything even close to that. Most were amazed that other then the PT and the long hours (6am-5pm), it was pretty much like any other job.
 

Paschendale

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Of course soldiers aren't heroes. Heroes are heroes. Being a hero is about one's actions, not one's occupation. Being this or that doesn't make a difference. A soldier who sacrifices himself to save the lives of others? He's a hero. But so is anyone else who did that, regardless of their job title.
 

Omgitsme

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Over the last 5 years, I had a question that I would ask every young soldier after they had been in our unit for about a month.

"Is the Army what you thought it would be?"

And ya know what? Almost universally, they admit it was not. They expected it to be tougher, more like a permanent boot-camp with Sergeants yelling at them all the time, and spending weeks at a time in the field living out of tents. And that we only deploy once every 2-3 years. Almost every one was very shocked that it was not anything even close to that. Most were amazed that other then the PT and the long hours (6am-5pm), it was pretty much like any other job.

Well a soldier who is fairly new most likely isnt going to say something negative about the Army to someone who outranks them (I would assume you outrank them) but im sure that its true that most people who join the military expect something like that especially right after boot camp. When I said that sometimes its true that people dont know what they are getting into when they join the military I was talking about the minority of people.
 

radcen

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Over the last 5 years, I had a question that I would ask every young soldier after they had been in our unit for about a month.

"Is the Army what you thought it would be?"

And ya know what? Almost universally, they admit it was not. They expected it to be tougher, more like a permanent boot-camp with Sergeants yelling at them all the time, and spending weeks at a time in the field living out of tents. And that we only deploy once every 2-3 years. Almost every one was very shocked that it was not anything even close to that. Most were amazed that other then the PT and the long hours (6am-5pm), it was pretty much like any other job.
This reflects my experiences when I joined (30 yrs ago). I liked the discipline and structure of the training aspects. I lost interest in the Army itself when I got to my permanent assignments. I did enjoy field assignments (my service was entirely peace-time), but other than that I found out that the service is a highly-functioning bureaucratic hypocritical mess.
 

lpast

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With the United States not having been invaded since 1812, and millions of civilians having been killed in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq. We also spend about 750 billion on defense against middle easterners with ak-47s. I am tired of people yelling out ignorantly how we should support our troops. When they fight these useless wars(Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada). All for political gain and also another factor is the military industrial complex. All the companies that build the tanks, body armour, fighter jets, rifles ect... Do you think we should glorify war and our soldiers as hero's?


Ever hear of pearl harbor.....were you ever in the military ? I dont know why im even responding to this drivel...
 

lpast

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This reflects my experiences when I joined (30 yrs ago). I liked the discipline and structure of the training aspects. I lost interest in the Army itself when I got to my permanent assignments. I did enjoy field assignments (my service was entirely peace-time), but other than that I found out that the service is a highly-functioning bureaucratic hypocritical mess.

Its changed dramatically since then...First of all the Army used to be Americas babysitter...judges used to order delinquents to join the army or go to reform school...the army had issues other branchs did not because of that and it was over a million men.
The kids today are smarter...better trained and better equipted and it better stay that way...they send these kids tour after tour after tour out of country relentlessly....my heart breaks for them..I know the toll it takes....GOD BLESS THEM ALL.
 

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Ever hear of pearl harbor.....were you ever in the military ? I dont know why im even responding to this drivel...

Pearl Harbor was an attack, not an invasion. Pearl Harbor could have easily been prevented, but then FDR wouldn't have been able to justify the murderous war with Japan. Also, without Pearl Harbor, FDR's illegal supplying of GB would have ended sometime in 1942.
 

Goshin

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Pearl Harbor was an attack, not an invasion. Pearl Harbor could have easily been prevented, but then FDR wouldn't have been able to justify the murderous war with Japan. Also, without Pearl Harbor, FDR's illegal supplying of GB would have ended sometime in 1942.

And then we'd have been facing an Asia ruled by a militaristic Japan for generations, and Europe dominated by the 3rd Reich, most likely.


Le Fail, mon ami.
 

Smart

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And then we'd have been facing an Asia ruled by a militaristic Japan for generations, and Europe dominated by the 3rd Reich, most likely.


Le Fail, mon ami.

Do you really believe the Third Reich wouldn't have been destroyed from within? Hitler was a sickly drug addict. Surely he'd die eventually.

as for Japan's Imperial ambitions, it's no different than our current foreign policy. We just can't stick bamboo shoots in innocent Chinese women, as it's a taboo in our culture.
 

Goshin

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Do you really believe the Third Reich wouldn't have been destroyed from within? Hitler was a sickly drug addict. Surely he'd die eventually.

as for Japan's Imperial ambitions, it's no different than our current foreign policy. We just can't stick bamboo shoots in innocent Chinese women, as it's a taboo in our culture.

3rd Reich wasn't a one-man show; someone would have taken over after Hitler.


If you really see no diff between Imperial Japan and modern America then I dont know what to say to you, other than get your eyeglasses checked.
 

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Towards the question.

I say no.

A Hero is someone who goes above and beyond the call of duty.

The same goes for Police and Firefighters.
If you are just doing the job you signed up to do, no!


If a civilian runs into a a burning house to save someone, they are a Hero because they have gone above and beyond the call of duty.
Not so for the likes of a Firefighter.
 

Smart

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3rd Reich wasn't a one-man show; someone would have taken over after Hitler.


If you really see no diff between Imperial Japan and modern America then I dont know what to say to you, other than get your eyeglasses checked.

That man wouldn't have been able to control the Empire that Hitler had built. Hitler was a brilliant man, but it was his charisma that created the Third Reich and without Hitler, it would have crumbled. The French, the Czech, the Norwegians, etc would have taken back their homelands by themselves.

That way, we don't have to have blood on our hands.

I suggest you take the blinders off, if you can't see the obvious parallels between Imperial Japan and Imperial America.
 

Oozlefinch

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Ever hear of pearl harbor.....were you ever in the military ? I dont know why im even responding to this drivel...

Pearl Harbor was an attack, not an invasion. Pearl Harbor could have easily been prevented, but then FDR wouldn't have been able to justify the murderous war with Japan. Also, without Pearl Harbor, FDR's illegal supplying of GB would have ended sometime in 1942.

Philippines? Guam? Alaska? Those were all invasions, with huge numbers of US citizens killed and imprisoned. Between 7-10,000 Americans and Philippino National Guard members were killed just on the Battan Death March alone. An estimated 1 million Philippinos were killed during the occupation. Every one of them a US National.

But they were not whites living in the Continental US, so I guess they don't count.
 

Oozlefinch

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That man wouldn't have been able to control the Empire that Hitler had built. Hitler was a brilliant man, but it was his charisma that created the Third Reich and without Hitler, it would have crumbled. The French, the Czech, the Norwegians, etc would have taken back their homelands by themselves.

That is complete nonsense. And any study of past empires would show that it is nonsense.

Hitler had a hand picked successor in Heinrich Himler, a man more then capable of assuming the robe of leadership. After all, he was the one holding control of both the branches of the Secret Service, as well as having his own Army Divisions.

If your claim is true, then the Roman Empire should have fallen apart after Julius. Or Gaius Octavius. Or Tiberius. But this is obviously not the case, since the Western Roman Empire obviously lasted until 480 CE when either Romulus Augustulus was overthrown in a coup, or Julius Nepos was assassinated. Either way, that was the year that the Western Roman Empire died, and the Kingdom of Italy was born.

Sorry, history favors the Empires, not those that built them. They can last centuries after their founder dies without any real problem. Heck, just look at North Korea. They are now under the rule of the 3rd member of the Kim Dynasty. Kim Jong-un.
 

LibertyBurns

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No soldiers are not heroes, that is just rediculous, though a guy jumping on a frag could easily be a hero, being a soldier does not automatically make an individual a hero.

Philippines? Guam? Alaska? Those were all invasions, with huge numbers of US citizens killed and imprisoned. Between 7-10,000 Americans and Philippino National Guard members were killed just on the Battan Death March alone. An estimated 1 million Philippinos were killed during the occupation. Every one of them a US National.

But they were not whites living in the Continental US, so I guess they don't count.

I wouldn't bring up the philippines haha... How many did Americans kill in the Philippine-American War, their war for independence? Over 200k was it? Though the number varies, these were not direct casualties but, they were indeed indirect casualties of the war.
 

Oozlefinch

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I wouldn't bring up the philippines haha... How many did Americans kill in the Philippine-American War, their war for independence? Over 200k was it? Though the number varies, these were not direct casualties but, they were indeed indirect casualties of the war.

Are you aware of what that really was?

The Philippine Insurrection was not one but a series of battles, going way back to the 1890's. And it was a multi-sided affair with multiple groups fighting for control of the Islands. In fact, there were 5 major groups involved, each of them trying for control of the islands. You had the Republic, which favored ties and limited control-sponsorship with America. Then you had the Katipunan, which was a racially based secret society which wanted to control the islands through the Masonic Temple. Then there was the Moros, a largely Muslim population based on Mindanao, which wanted to turn it into a Muslim state. Then the Sultinate of Sulu, another Islamic group also based in the Southern Philippines, which wanted to turn it into an even more radical Islamic Republic. Then finally the Pulahan, a group that was based on a combination of Catholicism and Philippine mythology and folklore.

A large number of the deaths were from internal fighting, as each tried to become the dominant group, much like that between Nationalist and Communist forces in China during WWII. Sure they might fight their "common enemy", but they spent as much if not more time fighting each other. Do not equate the Philippines Insurection with the US Civil War. On one side you had a mostly unified force operating under a unified command and government structure, and on the other you had a great many groups, each fighting for what it though the Philippines should become.

And even the "Philippine Republic" was not a republic, but a dictatorship. With a President that was appointed by decree with complete dictatorial powers.
 

lpast

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3rd Reich wasn't a one-man show; someone would have taken over after Hitler.


If you really see no diff between Imperial Japan and modern America then I dont know what to say to you, other than get your eyeglasses checked.


Thats precisely why Ive stopped saying any thing in this thread...whenever your dealing with HATE any kind of hate...reason becomes impossible...
 

Sarcogito

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some soldiers serve as clerks at an army base stateside.

what's heroic about that?

Hey now, paper cuts are no joke. ;)

I can say that because I have had many jobs in the Army and the first was clerk (75B Personnel Administration Specialist).

Of course in today’s world the support personnel often find themselves in harm’s way as well. Few people who enlist, even clerks, get to spend their whole time safely in the States. When I switched MOS over to MI, the E-4 who took my old billet lost his leg in Afghanistan.

But yeah, as I said before, simply being in the military or even deploying does not make one a hero.
 

LibertyBurns

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Are you aware of what that really was?

The Philippine Insurrection was not one but a series of battles, going way back to the 1890's. And it was a multi-sided affair with multiple groups fighting for control of the Islands. In fact, there were 5 major groups involved, each of them trying for control of the islands. You had the Republic, which favored ties and limited control-sponsorship with America. Then you had the Katipunan, which was a racially based secret society which wanted to control the islands through the Masonic Temple. Then there was the Moros, a largely Muslim population based on Mindanao, which wanted to turn it into a Muslim state. Then the Sultinate of Sulu, another Islamic group also based in the Southern Philippines, which wanted to turn it into an even more radical Islamic Republic. Then finally the Pulahan, a group that was based on a combination of Catholicism and Philippine mythology and folklore.

Your mixing everything up, making it sound like a huge battle royale. The secret militant society fought for the republic right? The conflicts between the Moro and Americans were a seperate event from the Filipino insurrection. Then you have to add the Moros to the different Sultanates, for they lived in these feudalistic societies. Moro = Muslim, you could seperate I geuss because the nobles didn't abide by the weak central governments treaty with Gates. Though the Moro attacks weren't that bad thanks to the treaty, though the conflict with them lasted longer than the insurrection. The Pulahan, you may very well be right about. I'm no expert on this conflict, nor shall I pretend to be but, I still think your trying to defend horrible US policy.

Do not equate the Philippines Insurection with the US Civil War. On one side you had a mostly unified force operating under a unified command and government structure, and on the other you had a great many groups, each fighting for what it though the Philippines should become.

And even the "Philippine Republic" was not a republic, but a dictatorship. With a President that was appointed by decree with complete dictatorial powers.

Some of the factions weren't unified correct, but most of the ones you stated were, out of those five I see three groups. The Moro people, the Pulahan, and the Rebels, also you left out a sultinate in the first group.

The Moro Rebellion was not attached to the Philippine Insurrection, in which most of the fighting was in the north.

Doesn't matter what ideology they followed, we should not have been there, it was against what our nation was supposed to stand for.

.
 

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I would say that perhaps most start out for altruistic reasons, often doing crap work for crap pay, because they want to make a difference. Whether we can define what that is or they accomplish it is up for debate, but the intent to serve honorably is there.

No, they aren't automatically heroes though. Do I need to mention Jessica Lynch? Well, some of the hugest assholes and at least one psychopath I grew up with joined the military. There's no way you would entrust someone like that with automatic weapons on the streets in this country...yet he is "defending the country." To me, their actions before and after joining weigh as much toward the status of "hero" as their time in the military.

Many will flat out admit they join for lack of other options, or the opportunity to get laid easily. One guy who went from air force to intelligence says he joined solely for a paycheck and doesn't even care about the "ideology" or whatever that entails. He can't stand being patronized, doesn't feel like a hero at all.

Some will say the motive for joining doesn't matter, but then take into account someone like Pat Tillman who gave up everything. Is that not heroic in itself? A lot of people talk big about national pride and support the troops and how they want an endless defense budget (just don't raise their taxes!), but I don't see many of the wealthy signing up like that.
 

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With the United States not having been invaded since 1812, and millions of civilians having been killed in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq. We also spend about 750 billion on defense against middle easterners with ak-47s. I am tired of people yelling out ignorantly how we should support our troops. When they fight these useless wars(Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada). All for political gain and also another factor is the military industrial complex. All the companies that build the tanks, body armour, fighter jets, rifles ect... Do you think we should glorify war and our soldiers as hero's?

Some troops are heroes and some are not,military service does not automatically equal hero. It depends on what that soldier,airman,marine or sailor has done.
 

Oozlefinch

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Some of the factions weren't unified correct, but most of the ones you stated were, out of those five I see three groups. The Moro people, the Pulahan, and the Rebels, also you left out a sultinate in the first group.

The Moro Rebellion was not attached to the Philippine Insurrection, in which most of the fighting was in the north.

Doesn't matter what ideology they followed, we should not have been there, it was against what our nation was supposed to stand for.

I quite clearly said "major groups" before I listed those. I was not going to try and list every single one of the dozens of groups involved. But this was not any single kind of rebellion like the US Revolution was. Think of the chaos of 1920's Germany, and you might start to get an idea. With dozens of groups all trying to rise to power.

The Philippine Insurrections were a serious of many groups, extending back to the reign of Spain, and continuing for about a decade. The rebels were generally local groups, fighting in their own areas against any US or Government forces that they saw as standing in their way. The Morro Rebellion was simply the longest of them, so some make the mistake of thinking they are seperate. But if the rebels of had their way, there would be no "Philippines" today. Instead you would have dozens of micro-countries, all fighting with each other.

And if you are not sure why we were there, you should really go back even further and read about the Spanish-American War then. "You may fire when ready, Gridley", San Juan Hill, and all the rest. Death counts are funny things to figure during this era, because you can't really seperate them from the Spanish era, the Spanish-American War, then the Insurrections and Rebellion. Spain was not a kind overlord to their colonies, and the Philippines of that era were in no way unified.One of the standard practices of Spain was concentration camps. Round up entire regions, and put them in "Concentration Camps" at night. Then anybody out in the fields or jungles at night was an enemy and you shot them.That is why we got into the war in the first place, getting their Pacific colonies was something that happened, we were not trying to gain them at all.

And much like Iraq, Weimar Germany, or many other situations, you then had groups pop up all wanting to control of the area. What should we have done, left them to kill each other off in a dozen year or more of internal bloodshed like Yugoslavia did?

You say you are not an expert of the conflict. I am not either, but I have a particular interest in this era of history (post Civil War through World War II), so have a lot of study and reading into it. You are trying to put modern thoughts and beliefs into an era more then 100 years ago, and that is a huge mistake for anybody to do. You say simply walking away would have been the best thing to do. What would the Balkans be like today if the entire world had simply turned their back on the region after Tito died, and then let all the groups fight it out amongst themselves?

We would have had a bloodbath many times worse then we actually had. The same would have happened in the Philippines.
 

radcen

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Its changed dramatically since then...First of all the Army used to be Americas babysitter...judges used to order delinquents to join the army or go to reform school...the army had issues other branchs did not because of that and it was over a million men.
The kids today are smarter...better trained and better equipted and it better stay that way...they send these kids tour after tour after tour out of country relentlessly....my heart breaks for them..I know the toll it takes....GOD BLESS THEM ALL.
Most people I served with were pretty intelligent, though there were always a couple dolts mixed in, too. I was in aviation, so that may have had something to do with it. Most of the dolts who tried aviation didn't make it through AIT.

My service was at a time when need was relatively low, it had been an all-voluntary force for several years, and they were able to raise entry standards accordingly and be more selective as they had more people wanting in than they actually wanted/needed. The Army/jail option thing was pretty much coming to an end when I joined, probably because the Army simply wouldn't take them if they didn't want to.

I am aware that a great many aspects (in this and other areas) have changed over the years, though.
 

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That man wouldn't have been able to control the Empire that Hitler had built. Hitler was a brilliant man, but it was his charisma that created the Third Reich and without Hitler, it would have crumbled. The French, the Czech, the Norwegians, etc would have taken back their homelands by themselves.

That way, we don't have to have blood on our hands.

I suggest you take the blinders off, if you can't see the obvious parallels between Imperial Japan and Imperial America.


We wouldn't have blood on our hands? Really?

What about the millions more Hitler and his successors would have sent to the gas chambers while we sat and did nothing? What about the Rape of Nanking?

You need to study more history before engaging in fruitless and improbable speculation, then presenting it as if it were fact when it is not.
 
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