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President Bush a class act...

For history to judge GWB, as Navy hopes and prays.....history would have to forget how he bankrupted this country, economically, morally and ethically.

I'm certainly skeptical, but it is possible. More than likely those ills will still remain with him, but our overall perspective could change one way or another.
 
I'm certainly skeptical, but it is possible. More than likely those ills will still remain with him, but our overall perspective could change one way or another.

Well....you are certainly optimistic.....
 
I'm an optimistic person. With history, I'm also more reluctant to say what will happen with how we view it in the future. Through my experience with research, I have discovered that with history, you have to have a sort of humility about it. George W. Bush's legacy could remain what it is now, which is mixed. It could become more positive, and it could become more negative.

We just have to wait and see.
 
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I'm an optimistic person. With history, I'm also more reluctant to say what will happen with how we view it in the future. Through my experience with research, I have discovered that with history, you have to have a sort of humility about it. George W. Bush's legacy could remain what it is now, which is mixed. It could become more positive, and it could become more negative.

We just have to wait and see.

Calling GWB's legacy today "mixed"....is being very generous.
 
Calling GWB's legacy today "mixed"....is being very generous.

Not really. You still have many defenders and advocates, or people who have recently come to view portions of his administration as something positive. Then you also have those many who are still passionately against him and what his administration represented. That is truly a mixed message, if you ask me.
 
Not really. You still have many defenders and advocates, or people who have recently come to view portions of his administration as something positive. Then you also have those many who are still passionately against him and what his administration represented. That is truly a mixed message, if you ask me.

Those who view the GWB administration positively amount to about 28% of the population. As I said....very generous.
 
I said portions of it, as well. They can say, "you know, I didn't really like him, but I think he is dead right on ________"
 
I said portions of it, as well. They can say, "you know, I didn't really like him, but I think he is dead right on ________"

As I said...I admire your optimism. I can't imagine what that "blank" could possibly be.
 
You said "you guys", which is somewhat inclusive, and makes an unfounded assumption...

Quit bloviating dude, even a 4 year old child knows what I said. Quit playing games otherwise people won't take you serious.
 
Not really. You still have many defenders and advocates, or people who have recently come to view portions of his administration as something positive. Then you also have those many who are still passionately against him and what his administration represented. That is truly a mixed message, if you ask me.

I'd like to see those that list positives. I am hard-pressed to find any at the top of my head besides the generous aid he supplied to Africa. The No Child Left Behind and Medicare Bills were disasters, let alone the Iraqi war and economy.
 
Think of it in terms of "he may have had this and this wrong, but the general approach/idea was good." For instance, No Child Left Behind. While it has numerous problems (mostly unintended) of "aiming for the stars" and complications with funding and curriculum molding, it is still going to be used for the basis of measuring our education system for at the very least, for the foreseeable future. The states have the means of tweaking the implementation of the Act, while nationally we should be seeing some reform, hopefully especially with AYP. The national dialogue has in fact been that the education system is in crisis. Education colleges take exception to this until No Child Left Behind is brought up, but a significant amount of the population desires strong standards and accountability clauses for their child's education. This is the political reality since the 1980s era of "A Nation at Risk".

In foreign policy: The United States found itself unable to continue thinking of terrorism in a police model and needed to think of it in terms of a war. Security in the defense of freedom is a necessary act, so long as it does not significantly alter us as a Republic (for information, see Douglas Feith's memoir).
 
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Think of it in terms of "he may have had this and this wrong, but the general approach/idea was good." For instance, No Child Left Behind. While it has numerous problems (mostly unintended) of "aiming for the stars" and complications with funding and curriculum molding, it is still going to be used for the basis of measuring our education system for at the very least, for the foreseeable future. The states have the means of tweaking the implementation of the Act, while nationally we should be seeing some reform, hopefully especially with AYP. The national dialogue has in fact been that the education system is in crisis. Education colleges take exception to this until No Child Left Behind is brought up, but a significant amount of the population desires strong standards and accountability clauses for their child's education. This is the political reality since the 1980s era of "A Nation at Risk".

In foreign policy: The United States found itself unable to continue thinking of terrorism in a police model and needed to think of it in terms of a war. Security in the defense of freedom is a necessary act, so long as it does not significantly alter us as a Republic (for information, see Douglas Feith's memoir).

I understand your thinking, and don't dispute it over all. But NCLB is a poor example as it was so wrongheaded that it should have never been passed to begin with. That may be a another thread, but felt I needed to mention that.

And I also believe that thinking of terrorism as a war was also a poor move, but not quite as dumfounding as NCLB.
 
I understand your thinking, and don't dispute it over all. But NCLB is a poor example as it was so wrongheaded that it should have never been passed to begin with. That may be a another thread, but felt I needed to mention that.

And I also believe that thinking of terrorism as a war was also a poor move, but not quite as dumfounding as NCLB.

Well, that is certainly up for debate. From my own perspective, I saw it as a national consequence of our national dialogue with what to do about the education system. The intellectual history of it certainly starts from the Nation at Risk era and it gained strength in both liberal and conservative camps. Stronger standards, more accountability, more measurement, and testing. The more interesting thing at the local/state level, at least from North Dakota, was that any political debate about NCLB in our state (we are not a high-stakes testing state) could be reduced to partisan bickering. In one session I attended in the capital, there was a Republican lady complaining to a representative of DPI for the implementation of the law in the state, to which the DPI rep replied "Hey, I'm just doing my job implementing a law that was pushed through by a Republican President." There is a great deal of hype surrounding the law, but to a degree, we must remember that states have some leeway with how to pursue this law (which carries with it its own problems and benefits).

I think it is tempting for most people to just do a blanket "oh it was bad" without really thinking about how supported it is in concept and why it is merely a reform process that is going on right now. To me, it was far too ambitious, far too simplistic in design, but is still around for a reason.
 
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Well, that is certainly up for debate. From my own perspective, I saw it as a national consequence of our national dialogue with what to do about the education system. The intellectual history of it certainly starts from the Nation at Risk era and it gained strength in both liberal and conservative camps. Stronger standards, more accountability, more measurement, and testing. The more interesting thing at the local/state level, at least from North Dakota, was that any political debate about NCLB in our state (we are not a high-stakes testing state) could be reduced to partisan bickering. In one session I attended in the capital, there was a Republican lady complaining to a representative of DPI for the implementation of the law in the state, to which the DPI rep replied "Hey, I'm just doing my job implementing a law that was pushed through by a Republican President." There is a great deal of hype surrounding the law, but to a degree, we must remember that states have some leeway with how to pursue this law (which carries with it its own problems and benefits).

I think it is tempting for most people to just do a blanket "oh it was bad" without really thinking about how supported it is in concept and why it is merely a reform process that is going on right now. To me, it was far too ambitious, far too simplistic in design, but is still around for a reason.

That happens with a lot of things, but the concept itself was misplaced. First, 100 is never really attable. Second, testing students doesn't really test teachers, espeically if the students have no stake in the test. And lastly, with not universial standard, the test actually tells us nothing at all.

It was the entitre premise that was flawed, so I don't think anything but a flawed outcome was likely. Too many just liked the idea of not leaving children behind and did not fully examine the premise behind it.

I remember tlaking with Kerry about it duirng the election. He was for it at first, but as he informed him, and he learned more (the way i think it should work btw), he rightly changed his mind.
 
That is the thing. Decades from now, it is entirely possible that our understanding of what we want from the education system will be further developed. This further influences how we also interpret the data coming from our reform efforts in education (thus far not positive, but nevertheless, not changed in mentality). Historiography almost dictates that it is the people in the future who evaluate the ethos behind legislation and its effects on the population and are influenced by their own feelings of political/educational philosophy.

We could still find ourselves agreeing with the sentiments of the law (perhaps even more than now), or we could find ourselves declaring it a disaster (even more than now).
 
That is the thing. Decades from now, it is entirely possible that our understanding of what we want from the education system will be further developed. This further influences how we also interpret the data coming from our reform efforts in education (thus far not positive, but nevertheless, not changed in mentality). Historiography almost dictates that it is the people in the future who evaluate the ethos behind legislation and its effects on the population and are influenced by their own feelings of political/educational philosophy.

We could still find ourselves agreeing with the sentiments of the law (perhaps even more than now), or we could find ourselves declaring it a disaster (even more than now).

That sounds like an argument that we can make no judgements now, and I just can't accept that. The lgoic can be followed now, and we can make judgements now, not only on sentiment, but on what is actually possible with the law.
 
It did not take long in this thread for the vicious hateful left reared their head against President Bush....What is ironic in the 2 interviews I saw he did not have a bad word or criticism for the left at all ...Them you have presidents Carter, Clinton and Obama......All they do is blame President Bush for their Gross incompetence.........
 
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It did not take long in this thread for the vicious hateful left reared their head against President Bush....What is ironic in the 2 interviews I saw he did not have a bad word or criticism for the left at all ...Them you have presidents Carter, Clinton and Obama......All they do is blame President Bush for their Gross incompetence.........

Probably because GWB knows that he can't really say much to defend his record of gross incompetence. At least he has you Navy.
 
Having seen some of the recent interviews with Bush I have to concur that he handled himself quite well. However, let it be clear that my feelings about him as a President have nothing to do with this. He honestly seems like a decent guy. However, I don't know if I like him as a leader. I don't understand the attitude that one must have personal hatred towards a person that you don't know simply because you don't agree with their policies. That is definitely not the case with my attitude towards Bush.
 
Having seen some of the recent interviews with Bush I have to concur that he handled himself quite well. However, let it be clear that my feelings about him as a President have nothing to do with this. He honestly seems like a decent guy. However, I don't know if I like him as a leader. I don't understand the attitude that one must have personal hatred towards a person that you don't know simply because you don't agree with their policies. That is definitely not the case with my attitude towards Bush.

excellent post. Thank you.
 
That sounds like an argument that we can make no judgements now, and I just can't accept that. The lgoic can be followed now, and we can make judgements now, not only on sentiment, but on what is actually possible with the law.

I believe the quote in question that started this mini-discussion was regarding his legacy or specifically how "history" would view him. From that perspective, yes, I am quite reluctant to agree with you, and I am quite reluctant to agree with Navy. I have been raised to be incredibly skeptical towards what people say history will say about such and such from generations from now and humble in the face of it when researching it.
 
Having seen some of the recent interviews with Bush I have to concur that he handled himself quite well. However, let it be clear that my feelings about him as a President have nothing to do with this. He honestly seems like a decent guy. However, I don't know if I like him as a leader. I don't understand the attitude that one must have personal hatred towards a person that you don't know simply because you don't agree with their policies. That is definitely not the case with my attitude towards Bush.

I second that, thank you...Its not often someone from the left would say something like that.........
 
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