power grid collapsing in NY

[Occam's Razor]

What do you consider a subsidy them actually getting money or them being able to front load the right off of depreciation of machinery?

Definition of 'Subsidy'
A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

Politics play an important part in subsidization. In general, the left is more in favor of having subsidized industries, while the right feels that industry should stand on its own without public funds.

There are many forms of subsidies given out by the government, including welfare payments, housing loans, student loans and farm subsidies. For example, if a domestic industry, like farming, is struggling to survive in a highly competitive international industry with low prices, a government may give cash subsidies to farms so that they can sell at the low market price but still achieve financial gain.

Investopedia - Educating the world about finance

Splitting hairs is a weak debate tactic...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Long post to make a short point.:lol: Yes they got tax breaks but not cash subsidies and land grants like these wind and solar farms get. I am fine with tax breaks to produce clean energy but not cash handouts to subsidize an industry that just can't compete in a free market.

So we should rip up every mile of rail, powergrid and pipeline in the US?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

We're using Trojan L16RE 2 volts marine batteries; we have 12 of them.

We had Trojans initially; tried Surrettes which did NOT work out well for us; so are back on Trojans and are happier.

I think when it comes to off-grid power, no one is perfectly happy!

Thanks for sharing, just satisfying my curiosity.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

I agree power companies need to invest in their infrastructure. Totally agree with that.

However, the govt also does play a role, particularly in helping to protect against terrorist attacks and in working with power companies to make sure they are doing the right things. We have a DOE for a reason.
Infrastructure Security and Energy Restoration (ISER) | Department of Energy

That's fine, I'm with you there. My objection is when people link the transportation infrastructure together with the power distribution infrastructure in discussions about government spending on infrastructure solely because both terms include the word "infrastructure."

 

[sawyerloggingon]

So we should rip up every mile of rail, powergrid and pipeline in the US?

Now YOu have gone off the rails.:lol:

 

[YoungConserv]

Investopedia - Educating the world about finance

Splitting hairs is a weak debate tactic...

I'm not splitting hairs allowing companies to front load depreciation costs doesn't fit with your definition of sibsidy.

 

[Carjosse]

Sounds like someone working in the oil/coal industry.

Is renewable energy perfect? Of course not, there are costs, both monetary and other costs, but it is the future. Oil is running out, and no amount of fracking and poisoning the water table will change that. Finding alternative ways of feeding our power need must be the number one thing any country should be doing. Investing in new oil base technology is a waste of money compared to investing in renewable technology.

Just think if every home and business in the Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas had solar panels on their roofs feeding into the grid? The amount of oil/coal that was saved (not to mention less pollution) would be massive and it would be a cash cow for the individual consumer.

How would it be a cash cow the only way people can buy solar panels if if it subsidized by the government we do not need to spend that money on solar panels when we can build a new nuclear plant or upgrade infrastructure. What we need is something efficient and nuclear can be just as clean. Renewable sources are a giant waste of money right now except for those giant off-shore wind farms and nuclear can be clean if you store the waste properly must less than gas or coal.

 

[iguanaman]

"Strain on the power grid has been causing scattered outages across the area, but in New Jersey it appears Mother Nature had the upper hand. According to PSE&G, roughly 14,000 customers lost service state-wide, with a huge chunk, approximately 4,600, in the dark in New Milford.
“We are working to have folks restored within two hours,” PSE&G spokesperson Lindsey Puliti told CBS 2.
Con Edison confirmed a new record for usage of 13,322 megawatts at 5 p.m. Before Friday, the all-time peak record was 13,189 megawatts set on July 22, 2011. That mark was first broken at 2 p.m. Friday, and usage grew through the afternoon.Thousands lost electricity Thursday night in the Williamsbridge section of the Bronx, forcing residents to sweat it out with no air-conditioning." Heat Wave Continues To Put Pressure On Power Grid « CBS New York


Now just imagine if everyone was plugging their cars in too.:lol:

Imagine if we spent the money for a modern national power grid that could transfer power from anywhere in the nation.

 

[PeteEU]

How would it be a cash cow the only way people can buy solar panels if if it subsidized by the government we do not need to spend that money on solar panels when we can build a new nuclear plant or upgrade infrastructure. What we need is something efficient and nuclear can be just as clean. Renewable sources are a giant waste of money right now except for those giant off-shore wind farms and nuclear can be clean if you store the waste properly must less than gas or coal.

Nuclear is dangerous and has waste that is not exactly easy to dispose off. It is also expensive as hell. And the consequences of a failure last thousands of years, just ask the Japanese or Ukrainians.

Using solar energy in high sunlight areas of the planet is only logical. And it can be done if government regulation (paid for by the coal and oil industries) does not block selling energy back to the grid... and that is often the biggest stumbling block. SolarCity in the US has an interesting model that could easily be adapted or expanded if local regulations and politicians would allow it.

But saying that, putting on higher taxes on dirty energy, and giving subsidies or not taxes on clean energy sources should be the way forward. For one there should be zero money going to the oil and cola industries in the form of subsidies and tax cuts, and cars that waste gasoline should be taxed the hell out of.

It is time that especially the US, but people in general around the world, start understanding that we can not keep wasting our resources like we are now.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Imagine if we spent the money for a modern national power grid that could transfer power from anywhere in the nation.

Star Trek time huh, :lol:

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Nuclear is dangerous and has waste that is not exactly easy to dispose off. It is also expensive as hell. And the consequences of a failure last thousands of years, just ask the Japanese or Ukrainians.

Using solar energy in high sunlight areas of the planet is only logical. And it can be done if government regulation (paid for by the coal and oil industries) does not block selling energy back to the grid... and that is often the biggest stumbling block. SolarCity in the US has an interesting model that could easily be adapted or expanded if local regulations and politicians would allow it.

But saying that, putting on higher taxes on dirty energy, and giving subsidies or not taxes on clean energy sources should be the way forward. For one there should be zero money going to the oil and cola industries in the form of subsidies and tax cuts, and cars that waste gasoline should be taxed the hell out of.

It is time that especially the US, but people in general around the world, start understanding that we can not keep wasting our resources like we are now.

I agree on the nuke part but the rest of your post is officially deleted.:lol:

 

[Fenton]

Just imagine if we had coastal wind and solar to supplement. Just imagine if homeowners got credits for installing solar or wind to not only charge their EV's, but power their homes. Imagine if everyone that wasn't using their cars could back feed into the grid and make up that power.... or back feed to their house to keep the lights on when the grid fails.

What if, what if, what if...

You've been poorly informed on the benefits of solar and wind turbines. Your'e poorly informed in general on how electricity is delivered and consumed.

 

[Fenton]

Nuclear is dangerous and has waste that is not exactly easy to dispose off. It is also expensive as hell. And the consequences of a failure last thousands of years, just ask the Japanese or Ukrainians.

Using solar energy in high sunlight areas of the planet is only logical. And it can be done if government regulation (paid for by the coal and oil industries) does not block selling energy back to the grid... and that is often the biggest stumbling block. SolarCity in the US has an interesting model that could easily be adapted or expanded if local regulations and politicians would allow it.

But saying that, putting on higher taxes on dirty energy, and giving subsidies or not taxes on clean energy sources should be the way forward. For one there should be zero money going to the oil and cola industries in the form of subsidies and tax cuts, and cars that waste gasoline should be taxed the hell out of.

It is time that especially the US, but people in general around the world, start understanding that we can not keep wasting our resources like we are now.

It's a bit ridiculous Pete, using two glaring examples of National stupidity to malign the nuclear option.

First, Chernobyl was a Russian built Graphite moderator Nuclear Reactor that exploded ( Reactor #4) during a test due to human error. Fukishima ? C'mon, they built a Nuclear reactor on a coast line, on a coast line that was just a bit susceptible to giant tidal waves.

Nuclear is a practical and safe alternative to fossil fuels if design considerations don't eventually put in front of a 50 ft wall of water.

 

[Northern Light]

Not saying it doesn't work. It's just expensive. Now she obvious received subsidies, tax beaks, etc. to install it. Can you tell us what the unsubsidized cost would have been? How many years it takes to break even?

She actually didn't receive any subsidies. Yes, it can be pricey, but it pays for itself in the long run.

The cost is high because the market is new. If more people were doing it, it would become cheaper.

 

[paddymcdougall]

It's a bit ridiculous Pete, using two glaring examples of National stupidity to malign the nuclear option.

.

Au Contraire, one should ALWAYS assume national stupidity when it comes to something as pricey and potentially dangerous as a nuke plant.

And why do people on this thread keep saying solar isn't an option? Right now it's providing power to a heckuva lot of people. Friends in Colorado who are grid-tied - and who are NOT power misers - end up getting a few hundred back from the power company end of the year because of all the power their panels provide. A couple hotels in my town have just put up a boatload of panels; that's going to sure help lower THEIR power bills! and reduce the amount of fossil fuel they use.

Solar is a very good option in many places. Instead of investing in a nuclear plant, invest in solar panels.

Solar farms are even opening up, where they have acres of panels and send the energy into the grid. That is so cool!

 

[Northern Light]

It's not so much that it's complicated, it's just the fine print. For example, let's say you pick up a set of panels that generates a high enough voltage for this sweet grid-tie controller you found. You'd think it's that simple, but that's just according to the official rating for the panel published by the maker -- depending on the brand they de-rate differently in different climates. So you got the panels that were right according to the literature, but then you install them in your real-world situation and you're not getting the voltage you were expecting.

There are a lot of buyer-beware stuff like that. It's not insurmountable, you just need to either do the reading or hire someone who already knows the ropes.

I think people who have a vendetta against the green energy sector will continue to make excuses for why it hasn't worked, can't work, and won't ever work. There's no changing the minds of dinosaurs. That's why our green energy market is losing to places like Europe, where higher efficiency technologies are being invented and implemented.

 

[Fenton]

Au Contraire, one should ALWAYS assume national stupidity when it comes to something as pricey and potentially dangerous as a nuke plant.

And why do people on this thread keep saying solar isn't an option? Right now it's providing power to a heckuva lot of people. Friends in Colorado who are grid-tied - and who are NOT power misers - end up getting a few hundred back from the power company end of the year because of all the power their panels provide. A couple hotels in my town have just put up a boatload of panels; that's going to sure help lower THEIR power bills! and reduce the amount of fossil fuel they use.

Solar is a very good option in many places. Instead of investing in a nuclear plant, invest in solar panels.

Solar farms are even opening up, where they have acres of panels and send the energy into the grid. That is so cool!

There is nothing more incredibly stupid than Solar. It is the knee jerk reaction to mass hysteria from easily manipulated Americans all over a false narrative with political origins.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Now YOu have gone off the rails.:lol:

Owww... nice one!

But seriously... what is the difference in land grants? When rail started it was a damned risky and dangerous proposition. The first power grid was plagued by rumors that ac electricity was extremely dangerous (thanks Edison) and before that, that it would leak out of the sockets (thanks Rockefeller).

Pipelines... They have never been held in high regard, but... well, out of site, out of mind.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'm not splitting hairs allowing companies to front load depreciation costs doesn't fit with your definition of sibsidy.

Please tell me which industry related to power and energy receives ONLY depreciation...

 

[Occam's Razor]

You've been poorly informed on the benefits of solar and wind turbines. Your'e poorly informed in general on how electricity is delivered and consumed.

Opinion without examples of how I'm misinformed means nothing.

Actually, I'm quite well versed in electrical distribution. That's the benefit of three years of study on that very subject.

 

[iguanaman]

Star Trek time huh, :lol:

Right. We will have invented warp drive before Congress will spend the money. There is no new tech needed for a National power grid though only the will and the cash.

 

[Carjosse]

Nuclear is dangerous and has waste that is not exactly easy to dispose off. It is also expensive as hell. And the consequences of a failure last thousands of years, just ask the Japanese or Ukrainians.

Using solar energy in high sunlight areas of the planet is only logical. And it can be done if government regulation (paid for by the coal and oil industries) does not block selling energy back to the grid... and that is often the biggest stumbling block. SolarCity in the US has an interesting model that could easily be adapted or expanded if local regulations and politicians would allow it.

But saying that, putting on higher taxes on dirty energy, and giving subsidies or not taxes on clean energy sources should be the way forward. For one there should be zero money going to the oil and cola industries in the form of subsidies and tax cuts, and cars that waste gasoline should be taxed the hell out of.

It is time that especially the US, but people in general around the world, start understanding that we can not keep wasting our resources like we are now.

Sure it's expensive but it pays off and we will probably not be replacing them in the near future. They are safe as long as you build them an area prone to earthquakes. I agree with taxing larger vehicles unless it's for business purposes and SUVs and sport cars are exempt.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Owww... nice one!

But seriously... what is the difference in land grants? When rail started it was a damned risky and dangerous proposition. The first power grid was plagued by rumors that ac electricity was extremely dangerous (thanks Edison) and before that, that it would leak out of the sockets (thanks Rockefeller).

Pipelines... They have never been held in high regard, but... well, out of site, out of mind.

You are trying to compare critical infrastructure like uniting the east and west coast with a rail road with supporting an industry that can't compete and can't show a profit. That is where you went off the rails.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Right. We will have invented warp drive before Congress will spend the money. There is no new tech needed for a National power grid though only the will and the cash.

How in the world can you reasonably and profitably bring power from one coast to another at a moments notice? The infrastructure to support that is cost prohibitive if not pure science fiction.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Imagine if we spent the money for a modern national power grid that could transfer power from anywhere in the nation.

You mean like a pipeline for oil/natural gas? Electrical power transmission lines lose lots of power, as the distance from point of power generation to point of use increases, this gets to be a quite a serious loss percentage, thus the closer to the point of use it is generated the more efficient electrical power is.

A Tiny Revolution: Transmission Line Losses