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power grid collapsing in NY

sawyerloggingon said:
IMO elec cars are out of the frying pan into the fire. I like the hybrid thing where cars make their own elec. I think that is great technology that is in its infancy and we could soon see cars getting 100 MPG with it.
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Hybrids will never be as efficient as all-electric. Basic physics problems there. Internal combustion engines are inefficient and always will be.
 
Occam's Razor said:
Just imagine if we had coastal wind and solar to supplement. Just imagine if homeowners got credits for installing solar or wind to not only charge their EV's, but power their homes. Imagine if everyone that wasn't using their cars could back feed into the grid and make up that power.... or back feed to their house to keep the lights on when the grid fails.

What if, what if, what if...
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Thanks to you and Driving Mullah for pointing out if everyone had solar panels and other alternative power, the grid probably wouldn't have failed. There would have been less demand on it.

And yes, of course the i/f needs upgrading as well. Can we get funding for that, House of Reps? (crickets)

I wish nuclear power was a viable alternative; but considering the problem of where to store the waste and considering just how catastrophic the consequences could be if a plant fails - just not happening.

But you know what? For the cost of one nuclear plant, bet we could put solar panels on a heckuva lot of buildings in NY and NJ and relieve the pressure on the grid!
 
paddymcdougall said:
Thanks to you and Driving Mullah for pointing out if everyone had solar panels and other alternative power, the grid probably wouldn't have failed. There would have been less demand on it.

And yes, of course the i/f needs upgrading as well. Can we get funding for that, House of Reps? (crickets)

I wish nuclear power was a viable alternative; but considering the problem of where to store the waste and considering just how catastrophic the consequences could be if a plant fails - just not happening.

But you know what? For the cost of one nuclear plant, bet we could put solar panels on a heckuva lot of buildings in NY and NJ and relieve the pressure on the grid!
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I am all for roof top solar but why should congress (tax payers)fund it? It is a good investment and people should do it on their own. On the elec car subject though, your solar panels don't work real well at night when you plug your car in, think this through.
 
Diving Mullah said:
First of all No Private company will touch nuclear power with a 100 foot poll.
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The nuclear power plant closet to me is privately owned they also own all of the wind turbines in that area.
 
CalGun said:
If you knew half as much as you and other know it alls claimed you'd realize the French are using American technology and producing a lot less waste out of MODERN facilities. Much of the waste us used as fuel onsite. The hurdles we have are not technical, not financial but political and legal. So suck it up and pay for your beloved legal and political hurdles and let technology rot instead of giving people cheaper, cleaner and more efficient power.
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Yeah, I was gonna say -- last I heard, France got something like 80% of its power from nuclear plants.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I am all for roof top solar but why should congress (tax payers)fund it? It is a good investment and people should do it on their own. On the elec car subject though, your solar panels don't work real well at night when you plug your car in, think this through.
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Beats giving subsidies to nuclear plants. Pretty sure they aren't funded solely by private funds.... but admit, I'm not sure.

No, solar panels don't work at night. But if they take the pressure off the grid, the grid can store up power so its available for overnight car charging.

I'm off-grid; I DON'T have an electric car because I don't have the capacity to charge one. So totally understand the issues. Wish I had the capacity...
 
It isn't just that. France is using technology that is American but was developed after we built our last nuclear power plant. They are able to destroy as fuel much of the waste from nuclear power plants. I believe the figure I saw was about 6% - the amount of waste that comes out of a modern Nuclear power plant in France compared to an American facility.

And again our objections and onbstructions to nuclear power are politics and in the name of politics they engage in legal bickering that makes it impossible to invest in - which is a sad commentary on America.


TacticalEvilDan said:
Yeah, I was gonna say -- last I heard, France got something like 80% of its power from nuclear plants.
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paddymcdougall said:
Beats giving subsidies to nuclear plants. Pretty sure they aren't funded solely by private funds.... but admit, I'm not sure.

No, solar panels don't work at night. But if they take the pressure off the grid, the grid can store up power so its available for overnight car charging.

I'm off-grid; I DON'T have an electric car because I don't have the capacity to charge one. So totally understand the issues. Wish I had the capacity...
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As of now the grid can't store power, it's use it or lose it.
 
This is why I'm happy I live in Texas independent power grid.
 
Occam's Razor said:
Just imagine if we had coastal wind and solar to supplement. Just imagine if homeowners got credits for installing solar or wind to not only charge their EV's, but power their homes. Imagine if everyone that wasn't using their cars could back feed into the grid and make up that power.... or back feed to their house to keep the lights on when the grid fails.

What if, what if, what if...
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Why should people have to be subsidized? If the technology is that good, then it sells itself.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Why should people have to be subsidized? If the technology is that good, then it sells itself.
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Probably for the same reason we let homeowners deduct mortgage interest -- it makes the essentials we want to promote as a nation more affordable and therefore more common.
 
0bserver92 said:
Do you know what's better than quickly out of date renewable energy resources? Upgrading the infrastructure if your willing to pay for it now will pay off greatly in long run.
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I think the way to do it would be to come up with a US standard voltage for DC in the 500,000 to 1,000,000 volt range. Then there isn't any phase matching needed, it's very low loss, and can be shared across the continent.

Anyone familiar with electronics knows that when you double voltage, resistive power loss is 1/4. DC current flows require no phase matching.

Here is a good example, and the US is making more DC power lines:

wiki: Pacific DC Intertie

I've been inside the Celilo Converter station before.
 
0bserver92 said:
They are incredibly inefficient vs. cost and as you buy them something new and much more efficient comes along, you know this feeling whenever you buy a computer.
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It would be nice to get away from coal, but I agree. We still need coal.
 
Deuce said:
Hybrids will never be as efficient as all-electric. Basic physics problems there. Internal combustion engines are inefficient and always will be.
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I'd like to see a methane fuel cell vehicle.
 
sawyerloggingon said:
As of now the grid can't store power, it's use it or lose it.
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Yep, its kind of funny here in the Northwest. Part of the cost of building the wind farms was that they would generate enough electricity to pay for much of the costs. However, too many times, they have been shut off because between them and the hydroelectric power, we have too much power and not a large enough infrastructure to send it elsewhere. Anyway, the fish come first. When the dam reservoirs fill up, they don't send it over a spillway because the changes in temperature and gas content is bad for the salmon. Instead, wind mills don't get the utilization expected. We have lots of wind over here, but not building so windmills many any more.
 
My aunt has a mini wind mill and solar panels on her home in the countryside. It generates all her power and she makes money off the grid. Even in the winter she's making power.

The notion that these technologies are "ineffecient" is vastly over-stated and IMO a product of counter-propaganda. Most people who bash these technologies just believe what they read, and have never visited the home of someone who uses them. It might be inefficient to fuel industry but it can certainly power people's homes. We have the technology now for most homes to be living completely off the grid, or actively feeding the grid.

Private industry wants you to believe that small scale solar and wind won't work for your needs so that you'll keep giving them money, and not the other way around.
 
Northern Light said:
My aunt has a mini wind mill and solar panels on her home in the countryside. It generates all her power and she makes money off the grid. Even in the winter she's making power.

The notion that these technologies are "ineffecient" is vastly over-stated and IMO a product of counter-propaganda. Most people who bash these technologies just believe what they read, and have never visited the home of someone who uses them. It might be inefficient to fuel industry but it can certainly power people's homes. We have the technology now for most homes to be living completely off the grid, or actively feeding the grid.

Private industry wants you to believe that small scale solar and wind won't work for your needs so that you'll keep giving them money, and not the other way around.
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Yep. You just have to customize your setup for your environment and get a good controller for the system. You can't just throw things together without knowing what you're doing and expect it to just work.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Yep. You just have to customize your setup for your environment and get a good controller for the system. You can't just throw things together without knowing what you're doing and expect it to just work.
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It's going to be that way with any system. It's not like I'm an electrician, but how much more complicated can it be? It would be worth it to see your meter running backwards.
 
Northern Light said:
It's going to be that way with any system. It's not like I'm an electrician, but how much more complicated can it be? It would be worth it to see your meter running backwards.
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It's not so much that it's complicated, it's just the fine print. For example, let's say you pick up a set of panels that generates a high enough voltage for this sweet grid-tie controller you found. You'd think it's that simple, but that's just according to the official rating for the panel published by the maker -- depending on the brand they de-rate differently in different climates. So you got the panels that were right according to the literature, but then you install them in your real-world situation and you're not getting the voltage you were expecting.

There are a lot of buyer-beware stuff like that. It's not insurmountable, you just need to either do the reading or hire someone who already knows the ropes.
 
Northern Light said:
My aunt has a mini wind mill and solar panels on her home in the countryside. It generates all her power and she makes money off the grid. Even in the winter she's making power.

The notion that these technologies are "ineffecient" is vastly over-stated and IMO a product of counter-propaganda. Most people who bash these technologies just believe what they read, and have never visited the home of someone who uses them. It might be inefficient to fuel industry but it can certainly power people's homes. We have the technology now for most homes to be living completely off the grid, or actively feeding the grid.

Private industry wants you to believe that small scale solar and wind won't work for your needs so that you'll keep giving them money, and not the other way around.
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Not saying it doesn't work. It's just expensive. Now she obvious received subsidies, tax beaks, etc. to install it. Can you tell us what the unsubsidized cost would have been? How many years it takes to break even?
 
We got rid of coal why can't you?
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Half of Canada's Providences don't use coal, so I assume you live in one of them. 2011 numbers have Canada producing 13.1% of their electricity by coal. Canada is blessed with hydroelectric sources. 61.3% of their power comes from hydroelectric dams. Nuclear power makes up 15.1% of their power, and natural gas 6.1%. This is 95.6% of their power. Wind and solar account for 0.65% of their power.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Half of Canada's Providences don't use coal, so I assume you live in one of them. 2011 numbers have Canada producing 13.1% of their electricity by coal. Canada is blessed with hydroelectric sources. 61.3% of their power comes from hydroelectric dams. Nuclear power makes up 15.1% of their power, and natural gas 6.1%. This is 95.6% of their power. Wind and solar account for 0.65% of their power.
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I live in Ontario half the population lives here and the last time I checked nuclear accounted for 75% of this province's power. See your problem is the coal industry that wants to keep power, destroy them and you are free to pursue other energy sources. Every office seems to give different numbers for energy sources so I have no idea what the real numbers are.
 
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