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power grid collapsing in NY

I gave an answer, and posted a link to proof that my answer was correct.

And I never said that IBM got govt money to develop the computer. FYI, IBM didn't develop the computer; the govt did.

I was referring to the fact that IBM was receiving govt money since a time before IBM even sold computers. IBM has never stopped receiving govt money.

It's your site and your claim, just quote the pertinent part that refers to IBM and tells what money they got as they developed the computer . I'm here to learn as well as pontificate, if you have facts share them. You equated IBM to the subsidies wind industry, back your claims up.
 
Your point is?

My point is, none of these started as critical infrastructure, no matter how you want to romanticize it. Nor was it clear that they would be profitable. Many factors had to come in to play for them to reach that level like steel rails, boilers that didn't blow up, air brakes, safe car coupling, etc.

Had Morgan and Edison gotten their way, we'd all see dc supply as critical infrastructure despite the superior ac supply being available.

Very few new tech or alternative tech has been immediately successful. That's my point. It was through either collusion, illegal practices or generous gov't help that most industries we see as critical today ever made a profit.

Yikes!
 
It's your site and your claim, just quote the pertinent part that refers to IBM and tells what money they got as they developed the computer . I'm here to learn as well as pontificate, if you have facts share them. You equated IBM to the subsidies wind industry, back your claims up.

Once again, IBM didn't develop the computer and I never said they did
 
The bigger factor would be from electrical transmission line loss over great distances.

A Tiny Revolution: Transmission Line Losses

Stop posting that link, even it's author says he's wrong about his numbers. Brazil is completing a 2,500 Km HVDC line as we speak. Line loss using HVDC is negligible compared to the ability of utilities to share power across time zones. The costs of building new power plants is astronomical but the utilities can't foot the bill for the 48 State upgrade. It's time for Govt. to step up and you should see that. It will lower our electric rates too.
 
Stop posting that link, even it's author says he's wrong about his numbers. Brazil is completing a 2,500 Km HVDC line as we speak. Line loss using HVDC is negligible compared to the ability of utilities to share power across time zones. The costs of building new power plants is astronomical but the utilities can't foot the bill for the 48 State upgrade. It's time for Govt. to step up and you should see that. It will lower our electric rates too.

Yes, back to my post 39!
 
It's a bit ridiculous Pete, using two glaring examples of National stupidity to malign the nuclear option.

First, Chernobyl was a Russian built Graphite moderator Nuclear Reactor that exploded ( Reactor #4) during a test due to human error. Fukishima ? C'mon, they built a Nuclear reactor on a coast line, on a coast line that was just a bit susceptible to giant tidal waves.

Nuclear is a practical and safe alternative to fossil fuels if design considerations don't eventually put in front of a 50 ft wall of water.

You do realize that many Nuclear plants in the US are near earthquake faults, flood plains or near the sea right?
 
Sure it's expensive but it pays off and we will probably not be replacing them in the near future. They are safe as long as you build them an area prone to earthquakes.

I suspect a typo there.. correct? :)

I agree with taxing larger vehicles unless it's for business purposes and SUVs and sport cars are exempt.

No, SUV's should be taxed the hell out off.. and sports cars are nothing but a penis extender for middle aged men and young boys. As for business purposes.. frankly no. It is time to force business to choose alternatives and force truck manufactures to make better and more efficient truck engines.
 
I suspect a typo there.. correct? :)



No, SUV's should be taxed the hell out off.. and sports cars are nothing but a penis extender for middle aged men and young boys. As for business purposes.. frankly no. It is time to force business to choose alternatives and force truck manufactures to make better and more efficient truck engines.

What are business supposed to use instead of trucks?
 
What are business supposed to use instead of trucks?

Trucks that dont use 5 gallons a mile.. point is there has not been any incentive to improve mileage and frankly it is needed.
 
No, SUV's should be taxed the hell out off.. and sports cars are nothing but a penis extender for middle aged men and young boys. As for business purposes.. frankly no. It is time to force business to choose alternatives and force truck manufactures to make better and more efficient truck engines.

So you think 10 mpg carrying 40 tons of cargo is to low?
 
Trucks that dont use 5 gallons a mile.. point is there has not been any incentive to improve mileage and frankly it is needed.

What model truck are you driving where you need 5 gallons of fuel to go a mile? Are you carrying 200 tons of stuff?
 
Considering it has pretty much not changed the last 30+ years... yes.

Actually yes they have. Tractor trailer MGP have increased dramatically in that time period, more than doubled.
 
Trucks that dont use 5 gallons a mile.. point is there has not been any incentive to improve mileage and frankly it is needed.

To my knowledge they actually are improving but we shouldn't put up another obstacle of people starting or growing businesses.
 
Trucks that dont use 5 gallons a mile.. point is there has not been any incentive to improve mileage and frankly it is needed.

Fuel is the number one cost of trucking comps and they do everything possible to increase fuel efficiency. The demand itself is the incentive.
 
To my knowledge they actually are improving but we shouldn't put up another obstacle of people starting or growing businesses.

They are not improving fast enough because until very recently there has not been any incentive to do so. Diesel has until recently been cheaper than petrol.. that has changed, and now we have a massive trucking fleet that has the same costs (if not higher) as us normal people, but drive much less per KM.
 
They are not improving fast enough because until very recently there has not been any incentive to do so. Diesel has until recently been cheaper than petrol.. that has changed, and now we have a massive trucking fleet that has the same costs (if not higher) as us normal people, but drive much less per KM.

They aren't increasing fast because the truck isn't the problem, it's the trailers. They are not very aerodynamic. Big rigs can get more than 10 miles per gallon with special designed trailers.
 
Opinion without examples of how I'm misinformed
means nothing.

Actually, I'm quite well versed in electrical distribution. That's the benefit of three years of study on that very subject.

Well if you had "3 years study" which I sincerely doubt you would now how utterly ridiculous, impractical, expensive and eco-unfriendly Solar is.

First find what you use in power in one day ( in kwh ). You can check your utillity usage through the Company that you buy electricity from.

Go to one of many online calculators and calculate out the SIZE of the array you'll need, and the COST to install.

I did this a couple of years ago and with Subsidies, ( yes, the Government has to Subsidize it it SUCKS so bad ) it was 24,000 dollars to lower my Bill by HALF.

Typical ROI on Solar is 20 - 30 years, typical warranty on the very expensive components is 15. Look up Solar Halo, because I think your'e wearing one.

Wind ? what a joke. Inneficient, expensive, high maintenance, bird eating including bald eagles scar on our landscape.

To become more "efficient" we wen't back in time apparently.

Your 3 "years of study" I hope disn't cost you anything because if I were you I would want my money back.
 
Well if you had "3 years study" which I sincerely doubt you would now how utterly ridiculous, impractical, expensive and eco-unfriendly Solar is.

First find what you use in power in one day ( in kwh ). You can check your utillity usage through the Company that you buy electricity from.

Go to one of many online calculators and calculate out the SIZE of the array you'll need, and the COST to install.

I did this a couple of years ago and with Subsidies, ( yes, the Government has to Subsidize it it SUCKS so bad ) it was 24,000 dollars to lower my Bill by HALF.

Typical ROI on Solar is 20 - 30 years, typical warranty on the very expensive components is 15. Look up Solar Halo, because I think your'e wearing one.

Wind ? what a joke. Inneficient, expensive, high maintenance, bird eating including bald eagles scar on our landscape.

To become more "efficient" we wen't back in time apparently.

Your 3 "years of study" I hope disn't cost you anything because if I were you I would want my money back.

WOW! Fight for your limitations and they shall be yours!

Not sure where to start... but your complaint about the warrantee is hilarious. Name anything in your house that has a warrantee longer than a year. Most products have a 90 day warrantee... does that stop you from buying it? Do you throw it out after the warrantee is up? Does it stop working after 90 days? You don't mind if this is dismissed, do you? Also, the usable life of most modern cells is in excess of 30 years.

Next, your concern for the birds is also hilarious. Traditional energy sources of far more massive impacts on the environment and ecosystems than windgen ever will. But I appreciate you trying to get in touch with your liberal side..LOL As for high maintenance... preventative once every two years and rarely needing parts replacement is NOT high maintenance, it's very, very low.

Onward.. Anyone that wants to save on their power bill by installing renewable sources and doesn't undertake what I call an Apollo 13 program is pissing away their money. This means, you have to change your conspicuous consumption habits. If you have "X" amount of gen capacity, you should do everything you can to lower your consumption to meet that. That means no electric water heaters, changing your lighting, using laptops instead of desktop PCs, using ammonia based refrigeration and ac, solar heating and so on. There are many ways to reduce your consumption without changing your lifestyle. Though ditching the TV would go a long way.

Installation cost... Anyone that pays to install solar is either hopelessly inept or lazy. Anyone that can use a cordless drill, a socket wrench and a screwdriver can install solar. Cost eliminated. Final electrical connection will have to be done by an electrician, most people know one.

Since you're keen on online calculators, you should have consulted local, state, federal and utility incentives and rebates. Most folks can reduce their cost by 20-30%.

Lastly, advancements in efficiency are happening on a nearly quarterly basis. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it's improved since you last looked at systems.

Everything I've listed, and much much more (this is only a brief sketch out) has been put in into practice in many locations.
 
WOW! Fight for your limitations and they shall be yours!

Not sure where to start... but your complaint about the warrantee is hilarious. Name anything in your house that has a warrantee longer than a year. Most products have a 90 day warrantee... does that stop you from buying it? Do you throw it out after the warrantee is up? Does it stop working after 90 days? You don't mind if this is dismissed, do you? Also, the usable life of most modern cells is in excess of 30 years.

Next, your concern for the birds is also hilarious. Traditional energy sources of far more massive impacts on the environment and ecosystems than windgen ever will. But I appreciate you trying to get in touch with your liberal side..LOL As for high maintenance... preventative once every two years and rarely needing parts replacement is NOT high maintenance, it's very, very low.

Onward.. Anyone that wants to save on their power bill by installing renewable sources and doesn't undertake what I call an Apollo 13 program is pissing away their money. This means, you have to change your conspicuous consumption habits. If you have "X" amount of gen capacity, you should do everything you can to lower your consumption to meet that. That means no electric water heaters, changing your lighting, using laptops instead of desktop PCs, using ammonia based refrigeration and ac, solar heating and so on. There are many ways to reduce your consumption without changing your lifestyle. Though ditching the TV would go a long way.

Installation cost... Anyone that pays to install solar is either hopelessly inept or lazy. Anyone that can use a cordless drill, a socket wrench and a screwdriver can install solar. Cost eliminated. Final electrical connection will have to be done by an electrician, most people know one.

Since you're keen on online calculators, you should have consulted local, state, federal and utility incentives and rebates. Most folks can reduce their cost by 20-30%.

Lastly, advancements in efficiency are happening on a nearly quarterly basis. In fact, I'm willing to bet that it's improved since you last looked at systems.

Everything I've listed, and much much more (this is only a brief sketch out) has been put in into practice in many locations.

Fenton obviously must be being paid by the oil/gas/nuclear industry.

I agree with you, that when one installs solar, especially if off-grid, it's important to examine your energy use. We have, over the years, really worked on reducing our use. I did replace our propane frig with an electric frig, but I got one as energy as efficient as possible yet still coming from a major supplier (Sears) for maintenance reasons.

To have pulled electricity to our house would have been eighty to hundred thousand; we did NOT spend that on solar.

But let's take a more normal example - my friends in Colorado got 35 panels; they had them installed; they are grid-tied; they are NOT power misers. Christmas lights, two electric heaters, freezer, run swamp cooler overnight, etc etc etc. On a conservative estimate, let's say their power bills were $300 a month pre-solar; so $3,600 a year (I don't know for sure, but that seems reasonable - they get under 20 degrees in winter, over 90 in summer).

Now they are getting back a few hundred a year. In ten years, they will have saved $36,000 in power bills, not counting rebates. Their solar installation cost them at most, half that.

This isn't reasonable? I don't know if they got subsidies on top of that, but even without them it makes perfect sense.

ps - re TV - projection TV uses a lot less power than a traditional TV. We have a 91 inch screen; we aren't suffering.
 
Excellent Discourse!

I have to tell all of you folks that this thread shows phenomenal, thought provoking input from all participants.

It is probably one of the finest examples of great minds working back and forth, but together, that I have ever seen on DP.

There is a lot of education here from many angles, coupled with extensive personal knowledge and personal experience.

Hearty Congratulations to all of you!
 
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