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Pope Says NATO May Have Caused Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine

sanman

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Hopefully the Ukrainians are listening to what the Pope is saying:

Pope Says NATO May Have Caused Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine​

ROME — Pope Francis said that NATO “barking” at Russia’s door may have led to Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine — and said he has offered to meet the Russian president in Moscow.

In an interview with the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera, Francis reflected on Russia’s lethal aggression toward its neighbor and said while he might not go as far as saying NATO’s presence in nearby countries “provoked” Moscow, it “perhaps facilitated” the invasion.

Francis also condemned the “brutality” of the war and compared it to Rwanda’s civil war in the 1990s, which resulted in a genocide of the Tutsi minority.
 

sanman

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NATO is a defensive alliance. The pope is not only wrong, but apparently stupid as well
No, it's not a defensive alliance -- it's no longer what it was originally conceived to be.

NATO is now an instrument of imperialism. It's an instrument of empire.
 

Spunkylama

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Guess they took a break from abusing children to weigh in on this topic..
 

Tigerace117

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NATO is a defensive alliance. The pope is not only wrong, but apparently stupid as well

Hmm.....I wonder why someone who lived in Argentina at the height of the Dirty War, when the United States heavily backed the Argentine junta as it slaughtered vast numbers of innocent people, wouldn’t see it like that? 🙄

“ Although at least six U.S. citizens had been "disappeared" by the Argentine military by 1976, high-ranking state department officials including then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had secretly backed up Argentina's new military rulers.[136] During his years as U.S. Secretary of State, Kissinger had congratulated Argentina's military junta for combating the left, stating that in his opinion "the government of Argentina had done an outstanding job in wiping out terrorist forces".[137] The importance of his role was not known about until The Nation published in October 1987 an exposé written by Martin Edwin Andersen, a Washington Post and Newsweek special correspondent, Kissinger had secretly given the junta a "green light" for their state policies,[138] being the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA), founded in 1946 assigned the specific goal of teaching anti-communist counterinsurgency training, the place where several Latin American dictators, generations of their military where educated in state terrorism tactics, including the uses of torture in its curriculum.[139][140]”

 

Tigerace117

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NATO is a defensive alliance. The pope is not only wrong, but apparently stupid as well

I sure do wonder why he’d have an issue with our actions 🙄....

“State Department documents obtained in 2003 during the George W. Bush administration by the National Security Archive under the Freedom of Information Act show that in October 1976 Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and other high-ranking U.S. officials gave their full support to the Argentine military junta and urged them to hurry up and finish their actions before the Congress cut military aid.[136] On 5 October 1976, Kissinger met with Argentina's Foreign Minister and stated:

Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed. I have an old-fashioned view that friends ought to be supported. What is not understood in the United States is that you have a civil war. We read about human rights problems but not the context. The quicker you succeed the better. [...] The human rights problem is a growing one. Your Ambassador can apprise you. We want a stable situation. We won't cause you unnecessary difficulties. If you can finish before Congress gets back, the better. Whatever freedoms you could restore would help.[136]”

From previous source.

And before someone starts crying about “whataboutism”, understanding WHY someone from Latin America would see US actions as being the triggering force behind the crisis is entirely relevant.
 

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sanman

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What "empire" do you imagine?

NATO is joined voluntarily.
No, the US-sponsored Maidan coup in 2014 was not voluntarily supported across Ukraine by the entire population of Ukraine -- certainly not in the Donbass region. Co-opting them into NATO is not voluntary from their side, it's forced coercion to separate them from Russia, which they've been part of for over a thousand years, since long before there was any place called "Ukraine".
 

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Hmm.....I wonder why someone who lived in Argentina at the height of the Dirty War, when the United States heavily backed the Argentine junta as it slaughtered vast numbers of innocent people, wouldn’t see it like that? 🙄

“ Although at least six U.S. citizens had been "disappeared" by the Argentine military by 1976, high-ranking state department officials including then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had secretly backed up Argentina's new military rulers.[136] During his years as U.S. Secretary of State, Kissinger had congratulated Argentina's military junta for combating the left, stating that in his opinion "the government of Argentina had done an outstanding job in wiping out terrorist forces".[137] The importance of his role was not known about until The Nation published in October 1987 an exposé written by Martin Edwin Andersen, a Washington Post and Newsweek special correspondent, Kissinger had secretly given the junta a "green light" for their state policies,[138] being the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA), founded in 1946 assigned the specific goal of teaching anti-communist counterinsurgency training, the place where several Latin American dictators, generations of their military where educated in state terrorism tactics, including the uses of torture in its curriculum.[139][140]”


And our daily dose of whataboutism is delivered by the usual suspect.

WTF does Argentina have to do with the Pope's statement?
 

Tigerace117

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And our daily dose of whataboutism is delivered by the usual suspect.

WTF does Argentina have to do with the Pope's statement?

Oh look, PRECISELY as I called it.

Already explained bud. It’s entirely understandable that someone who lived during the height of the Dirty War, when the US heavily supported the Argentine junta’s slaughter of numerous innocent people, would see US foreign policy in a rather dim light. There is very little difference between how the Soviets treated the Warsaw Pact states and how we treated Latin America over the course of the twentieth century.

Perhaps you should educate yourself for once instead of shrieking “whataboutism” over and over again.
 

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No, the US-sponsored Maidan coup in 2014

🤣

was not voluntarily supported across Ukraine by the entire population of Ukraine -- certainly not in the Donbass region.

So what?

Co-opting them into NATO is not voluntary from their side, it's forced coercion to separate them from Russia, which they've been part of for over a thousand years, since long before there was any place called "Ukraine".

1. The are Ukrainians as of 1991.
2. The creation of an independent Ukraine is what separated them from Russia.
3. They are free to emigrate from Ukraine any time they want.
 

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Oh look, PRECISELY as I called it.

Already explained bud. It’s entirely understandable that someone who lived during the height of the Dirty War, when the US heavily supported the Argentine junta’s slaughter of numerous innocent people, would see US foreign policy in a rather dim light. There is very little difference between how the Soviets treated the Warsaw Pact states and how we treated Latin America over the course of the twentieth century.

Perhaps you should educate yourself for once instead of shrieking “whataboutism” over and over again.

In other words you jumped into another thread with your garden variety whataboutism.
 

Tigerace117

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In other words you jumped into another thread with your garden variety whataboutism.

In other words you are so desperate to babble “whataboutism” that you can’t bear to understand WHY the Pope would see the US’ actions in the way he does. Noted.

I’ll give you a hint— someone who lived under a brutal military dictatorship which murdered numerous innocent people with American support is going to see the US’ actions in a very different light than Americans do. Deal with it.
 

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🤣



So what?



1. The are Ukrainians as of 1991.

Flash in the pan, absolutely nothing. I have dental cavities older than Ukraine. So do many "Ukrainians"
Donbass is separate since 2014. That's one third of the lifespan of Ukraine, as if Ukraine's lifespan is of some special importance.
So-called unified "Ukraine" is from 1991-2014 (23 years)
Independent Donbass is from 2014-2022 (8 years)

8 ~ 1/3 of 23

2. The creation of an independent Ukraine is what separated them from Russia.
The creation of an independent Donbass is what separated from from Ukraine and reunited them with Russia. Who are NATO to disagree?

3. They are free to emigrate from Ukraine any time they want.

The non-Russians are also free to emigrate. Works both ways.
 
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Luce

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So what's the pope's expertise on this sort of thing?

Last I heard, he was a chemist.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

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Hopefully the Ukrainians are listening to what the Pope is saying:



Ahhh well then, by the same token, the collapse of the USSR was perhaps facilitated by the Warsaw Pact aggression and Soviet barking in East Germany. His Eminence is gravely mistaken. NATO was formed as a reaction to continuing Russian encroachment into Europe and Putin's ongoing decade old actions in Ukraine constitutes Russian encroachment into Europe.
 

Tigerace117

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So what's the pope's expertise on this sort of thing?

Last I heard, he was a chemist.

He has played an active diplomatic role since assuming the position.
 

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No, it's not a defensive alliance -- it's no longer what it was originally conceived to be.

NATO is now an instrument of imperialism. It's an instrument of empire.

Imperialism? Amazing how the Far Right and the alt-Left are kissing so sweetly now.
 

Tigerace117

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Ahhh well then, by the same token, the collapse of the USSR was perhaps facilitated by the Warsaw Pact aggression and Soviet barking in East Germany. His Eminence is gravely mistaken. NATO was formed as a reaction to continuing Russian encroachment into Europe and Putin's ongoing decade old actions in Ukraine constitutes Russian encroachment into Europe.

On the other hand, take it from his point of view. “Russian encroachment” and “the communist threat” was the excuse the US used for supporting all manner of vicious tyrants across the region, including the one in Argentina.

You can only cry wolf so many times before some people stop buying it, even when an actual wolf shows up.
 
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