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Poll: UK Muslims have ZERO tolerance of Homosexuality. 0-fer-500

mbig

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This compares to 35% in France, the most liberal, and 19% in Germany.
I wonder how it is in Arabic countries.... Criminal.

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll | UK news | guardian.co.uk

Muslims in Britain have Zero tolerance of Homosexuality, says poll

Survey shows UK Muslims have more conservative attitudes on sex than Muslims in France and Germany
Religious affairs correspondent/Guardian.co.uk.
7 May 2009

Muslims in Britain have Zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published today.

The Gallup poll features the results of telephone and face-to-face interviews with Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK, France and Germany and is designed to measure global attitudes towards people from different faith traditions.

It shows that British Muslims hold more conservative opinions towards homosexual acts, abortion, viewing pornography, suicide and sex outside marriage than European Muslims, polling markedly lower when asked if they believed these things were morally acceptable.

The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. NONE of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable.
1,001 non-Muslim Britons were interviewed.
[.....]

The inevitable apologia of various sorts to follow.
-
 
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alexa

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This compares to 35% in France, the most liberal, and 19% in Germany.
I wonder how it is in Arabic countries.... Criminal.

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll | UK news | guardian.co.uk



The inevitable apologia of various sorts to follow.
-

The inevitable other appropriate parts of the article which you chose to leave out.

Mogahed said some of the findings surprised her, particularly that British Muslims identified more with their home nation than did non-Muslims because "it flew in the face of conventional wisdom". She expressed concern that British Muslims were less happier and less "thriving" than Muslims overseas. "The British Muslim community is disproportionately unemployed."

The report suggested that integration should be focusing on economic opportunity rather than religious issues, she added.


The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.

Now it might be worth talking about
 

Red_Dave

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Gardener

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| guardian.co.uk[/url]



The inevitable apologia of various sorts to follow.
-

But don't you know, MBIG, that _________ (choose a people) living back in ____ (choose century or millenium) were very similar, and even today you can find some ______(choose people again) who are very similar if you just look hard enough (but NEVER mention the tiny percentage)

So you see - -it's all the same!
 

mbig

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The inevitable other appropriate parts of the article which you chose to leave out.

"The British Muslim community is disproportionately unemployed.".......

Now it might be worth talking about
I INCLUDED the main/opening chunk and it's Headline from Your favorite Leftist source, Guardian.
As we are not allowed to post Whole articles here (see Rule 9a).

So because Muslims have an unemployment rate of (say for argument) 17% vs 12% for the General Populous--- that makes 100% of them Intolerant of Gays?!
?!*&^&%&$^$^.
WHAT!
I thought the diversion/delusion in the ME section was preposterous (and it Is), but..
This is more Bizarre, far-fetched, and IRRELEVANT, than the apologism I had imagined I'd find elsewhere. (not really)

I knew it would be difficult, as you couldn't bash the messenger/link, nor the source... so the scramble would be on for something else to excuse away this truly amazing/Disturbing poll.

And another:

Red_Dave said:
So its not possible to disagree with Muslims while still maintaining that they are not all involved in an apocalyptical conspiricy against the west?

Who said that dave?
My opponents Regularly HAVE to engage in fallacious argument, including strawmen, as this.

Of course. I do maintain we are in a Cultural struggle, which as illustrated in This case, is not 'apocalyptical' but pretty damn disturbing to any HONEST Liberal Westener.
Which on this whole board includes Only Gardener,
whose liberal values are CONSISTENT, instead of being overridden by pathetic, self-deceptive, and Dishonest PC.
See my Sig.
-
 
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Arch Enemy

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But don't you know, MBIG, that _________ (choose a people) living back in ____ (choose century or millenium) were very similar, and even today you can find some ______(choose people again) who are very similar if you just look hard enough (but NEVER mention the tiny percentage)

So you see - -it's all the same!

But don't you know, MBIG, that Swedes living back in the 18th Century were very similar, and even today you can find some Swedes who are very similar if you just look hard enough (but NEVER mention the tiny percentage).

I could make a better fill in the blank than that, newb.
 

Gardener

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I could make a better fill in the blank than that, newb.

It's always so invigorating to be called a newb by a kid young enough to be my grandson.
 

Arch Enemy

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It's always so invigorating to be called a newb by a kid young enough to be my grandson.

Invigorating? Old man, I'd watch your choice of words on the internet in reply to children the age of your grandson.

:2wave:
 

alexa

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I INCLUDED the main/opening chunk and it's Headline from Your favorite Leftist source, Guardian.
As we are not allowed to post Whole articles here (see Rule 9a).

So because Muslims have an unemployment rate of (say for argument) 17% vs 12% for the General Populous--- that makes 100% of them Intolerant of Gays?!
?!*&^&%&$^$^.
WHAT!

Even if you are not allowed to print the whole article it would be possible to give an indication of what it was saying.

Your mistake was in choosing the Guardian rather than the Daily Mail which would have had an article to suit your mindset.

And yes of course from a sociological perspective all things are important. The racism which long term asian Muslims have consistently experienced here, the enormous number of attacks they experienced after 9/11 and the fact that they have possibly due to the long term racism and now due to Islampbhobia experienced unemployment proportionately higher than the general population.

This is how someone would look at the situation from a sociological perspective. I am aware that with Thatcher, society was supposed to be dead and now anyone who looks at things from that perspective to be labled leftist and hissed at, but nonetheless such a way of looking at society still exists and has a reason for being there.

You should have noted that Muslim people enjoy the extra freedoms and human rights. To not note that is to try to give an impression which is not accurate.

When people are to some degree persecuted as I think it is fair to say Muslims are in the UK, then of course you will find them looking to some way to find some meaning in their life's. If they are left feeling isolated then the only thing they have left to base their identity on, is being Muslim and we should not be surprised if that is sometimes taken somewhat to extremes. Try to understand what is being said. It is the very action of demonising Muslims and isolating them from society which creates the very problems you are complaining about.

The Guardian article goes along with my beliefs that yes we have some difficultlies with the Muslim community here at the moment but these issues would be better dealt with by finding ways to give them meaning in their lifes and something to work for. That can be best dealt with by giving them good training and economic and social possibiities.

I thought the diversion/delusion in the ME section was preposterous (and it Is), but..

My computer broke some two months ago and with moving house, I only managed to look at the forum for a few minutes occasionally. Please point me to this possibly enlightening thread.



:2rofll:

You have really excelled yourself this time mbig putting in a source and then saying it is

This is more Bizarre, far-fetched, and IRRELEVANT, than the apologism I had imagined I'd find elsewhere. (not really)
 
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Going slightly off topic. extremism, from both sides, has and does breed disproportionate reactionary responses. After reading various articles about the 7/7 bombers what often shines through is the utter hopelessness some elements of society feel [in this case the Muslim community] The bombers grew up in a westernized society, integrating for the most part-holding down jobs or in education, but still became radicalised. What we need to understand is aggression often breeds aggression. This is not me coming from a pacifist stance but following logic.



Paul
 

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This compares to 35% in France, the most liberal, and 19% in Germany.
I wonder how it is in Arabic countries.... Criminal.

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll | UK news | guardian.co.uk



The inevitable apologia of various sorts to follow.
-

So? that is how they were brought up. If you had run the poll in a Christian country 50+ years ago you would have had the same result for Christians. My father's generation are not exactly "tolerant" of homosexuals, and my grandfather's were out right hostile.. just think 100 years ago.

And no that is not some way of excusing their backward thinking, just a fact.
 
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MyOwnDrum

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It is a huge irony that the Muslims in the West that tend to be defended by the 'tolerant' and politically correct Left, are themselves highly intolerant of the looser sexual mores that the Left 'prides' itself in.

The Left makes mascots of anything they perceive as exotic. They are especially fascinated with the customs of those with darker skin, for some reason. If you practice voodoo or Muslim fundamentalism and have dark skin, then you are the darling of the Multiculturalists. If you practice Christian faith healing or Mormonism and have a lighter complexion, you are considered a dangerous member of the Christian Right worthy of comtempt and ridicule.
 

mbig

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Tawfik Hamid, Muslim reformer.
Ex-member of Jemaah Islamiyah.
Pointing out part of the problem is Wrong-headed Western PC "Progressive" apologists who condone Stone Age values.

Featured Article - WSJ.com
Sadly, Mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes Violence.
by TAWFIK HAMID //// April 3, 2007 //// Wall Street Journal
[........]
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies.
Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam.
Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq.
Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.

These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology...."

".... Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become OBSTACLES to reforming Islam. Political Correctness among Westerners Obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity.
They find Socioeconomic or political EXCUSES for Islamist terrorism such as Poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist Barbarity?
[.....]
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a façade of cultural relativism,
that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.[.....]Western Appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem.
[.....]
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
[......]
 
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It is a huge irony that the Muslims in the West that tend to be defended by the 'tolerant' and politically correct Left, are themselves highly intolerant of the looser sexual mores that the Left 'prides' itself in.

The Left makes mascots of anything they perceive as exotic. They are especially fascinated with the customs of those with darker skin, for some reason. If you practice voodoo or Muslim fundamentalism and have dark skin, then you are the darling of the Multiculturalists. If you practice Christian faith healing or Mormonism and have a lighter complexion, you are considered a dangerous member of the Christian Right worthy of comtempt and ridicule.



Beyond the incredible hypocrisy of these people, I'm often amazed at how illiberal they are. This stupid dogmatism of theirs has replaced any semblance of liberalism, as they have become little more than lock step fundamentalists, themselves.

There are still some true liberals out there these days, but they are becoming increasingly difficult to find due to all the bleating provided by the leftist fundies.
 

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Beyond the incredible hypocrisy of these people, I'm often amazed at how illiberal they are. This stupid dogmatism of theirs has replaced any semblance of liberalism, as they have become little more than lock step fundamentalists, themselves.

There are still some true liberals out there these days, but they are becoming increasingly difficult to find due to all the bleating provided by the leftist fundies.
I agree. They are supposedly 'tolerant' but want to squelch the free expression of those who differ with them. Somehow, a prayer said by a coach before a school football game is a huge threat to their freedom of thought and religion and a fundamental violation of the American constitution. Yet for non-Christian minorities they give a carte blanche.
 

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It is a huge irony that the Muslims in the West that tend to be defended by the 'tolerant' and politically correct Left, are themselves highly intolerant of the looser sexual mores that the Left 'prides' itself in.

The Left makes mascots of anything they perceive as exotic. They are especially fascinated with the customs of those with darker skin, for some reason. If you practice voodoo or Muslim fundamentalism and have dark skin, then you are the darling of the Multiculturalists. If you practice Christian faith healing or Mormonism and have a lighter complexion, you are considered a dangerous member of the Christian Right worthy of comtempt and ridicule.

And the huge irony is that the "christian" community is in total denial of their own issues on exactly the same thing.

It is the Christian right and right wing in the US that is pushing for denying homosexuals the same basic rights as heterosexuals and I would wager if they could get away with it, then they would ban homosexuality and make it a crime in a heartbeat. It is Christians in Africa that are attacking gays and burning women and girls for being "witches". It is Christian evangelicals that are pushing for the death penalty in Uganda for the "crime" of being gay... and funny enough these very same evangelicals are funded and backed by US evangelicals.

So the question is, if we are to be disgusted of those in the muslim community
that have these opinions then why are we not just as disgusted of the Christians who have the exact same (and worse) opinions in our own communities? No people defend those Christians tooth and nail and claim some sort of attack on Christianity, while the next second they attack Muslims.... hypocrites.

And if anything, it is the right (conservatives) that are promoting anti-gay, anti-jewish, anti-muslim and anti everything basically and always have. The amount of denial out there is astounding, especially in the US, but yes it is not only in the US.
 

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Not even 50, in most parts of Europe, laws against homosexual acts were only repealed in the last 30-40 years.

Even in the last decade or so in old Iron curtain countries... was a requirement to get into the EU :)

Getting rid of such ideas and views aint easy and it takes generations often.
 

Gardener

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And the huge irony is that the "christian" community is in total denial of their own issues on exactly the same thing.

It is the Christian right and right wing in the US that is pushing for denying homosexuals the same basic rights as heterosexuals and I would wager if they could get away with it, then they would ban homosexuality and make it a crime in a heartbeat. It is Christians in Africa that are attacking gays and burning women and girls for being "witches". It is Christian evangelicals that are pushing for the death penalty in Uganda for the "crime" of being gay... and funny enough these very same evangelicals are funded and backed by US evangelicals.

So the question is, if we are to be disgusted of those in the muslim community
that have these opinions then why are we not just as disgusted of the Christians who have the exact same (and worse) opinions in our own communities? No people defend those Christians tooth and nail and claim some sort of attack on Christianity, while the next second they attack Muslims.... hypocrites.

And if anything, it is the right (conservatives) that are promoting anti-gay, anti-jewish, anti-muslim and anti everything basically and always have. The amount of denial out there is astounding, especially in the US, but yes it is not only in the US.

Or, you can act intelligently, and consider the attitudes expressed rather than those expressing them.

If all you have is a simplistic template whereby you label something according to who says it, and then either suport or reject accordingly, you have rendered yourself little more than a reactionary.
 

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Or, you can act intelligently, and consider the attitudes expressed rather than those expressing them.

If all you have is a simplistic template whereby you label something according to who says it, and then either suport or reject accordingly, you have rendered yourself little more than a reactionary.

The attitudes expressed are stupid and moronic regardless of the religion of the person expressing them and that is my point.

Time and time again (even in this thread) it is Muslim this muslim that with total disregard to what certain Christian or Jews or others do in the exact same situation.

Yes many Muslims and especially religious Muslims are anti-gay, but so are many Christians and Jews, especially the religious radicals. There is zero difference in their attitudes. And this often goes on many issues, the amount of agreement among the radicals in any religion is startling.

Focusing constantly on Muslims and their views is un-intelligent drivel by people (usually) on the right but also in general. One should focus on the opinion's and actions of the people in question regardless of what religion they have..A gay basher is a gay basher, regardless if he is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, an Athiest or a martian.

But as long as the right seems to be in their anti-Muslim mode, then they will be countered by people like me, with their own hypocrisy in the fact they are not just as equally critical of their own "people" who have exactly the same views often and are not Muslim.
 

mbig

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On the Contary Pete.
It's quite socially acceptable to bash Falwell/Roberston/the Christian Right/"Fundies" for the Same opinions that the SAME liberals APOLOGIZE for for Muslim intolerance.

I invite you to be even-handed and Bash BOTH.
(and throw in Orthodox Judaism for good measure when appropriate)
But fairness doesn't enter into an illogical purely political stance, not based on fact, just Fashionable 'post-colonial' PC.


In fact, only 10% of Westerners (Christians and Jews) are Literalists, while a healthy Majority of Muslims are.
The numbers are basically reversed/upisde down in favor of NON-secular Islam.

Those oft bashed Christians are no worse, and considerable more moderate than their Islamic counterparts. Counterparts, who are the Great Majority of Islam.
Where are the Christian 'Taliban' or Shariah?
Where is a Christian Theocracy, as Muslims routinely have part of Full versions of?

That's the problem in Islam. (Manji) "Literalism is Mainstream". And Literalism to a Holy Book (unlike the other Two), whose enemies are still Extant; Jews/Christians.

Imagine 80% of the West were Literalist/Fundamentalists like the Muslim world is... and persecuted and Cleansed Muslims are Muslims do to Christians and Other minorities.

So, in short, what we have is Liberal Hypocrisy and Delusion.. as I've pointed out many times.. and is the gist of the [untouched] Hamid article.
People who's position is sickeningly empty and predictable, silly and Fashion-based; Not fact based and do NOT applying their 'principals' (lack thereof), equally.
 
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mbig

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Even if you are not allowed to print the whole article it would be possible to give an indication of what it was saying.
And in FACT I Did add the other RELEVANT numbers which were better for France and Germany.

Your mistake was in choosing the Guardian rather than the Daily Mail which would have had an article to suit your mindset.
True, the Leftist Piece of crap Guardian, in full apology mode (and as panicked as you about these Disturbing numbers for which there is No excuse but Bigotry), went a wandering for IRRELEVANT economic factors, as the ridiculous 'unemployment' you cited.
And of course you just Unwittingly Admitted those OTHER issues NOT on the main point.
It IS a Study of Religous beliefs.
Be glad TO post other links for same, who don't go into full apology mode.


When people are to some degree persecuted as I think it is fair to say Muslims are in the UK, then of course you will find them looking to some way to find some meaning in their life's. If they are left feeling isolated then the only thing they have left to base their identity on, is being Muslim and we should not be surprised if that is sometimes taken somewhat to extremes.
Odd. (and Contrary to your red herring)...
When one looks at, ie, Jews in America, who were also persecuted, they are noticeably more Liberal and protective of other minorities (Gays, Blacks, and even Muslims) Because they bore the Brunt.. while you make the excuse it's OK for Muslims to Bash someone else because of discrimination against them.
Poor apologism.
(To whatever degree the Wet Teabags aren't already bending over for them as NO other group in History.. much less 'discriminating'.)
 
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Gardener

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The attitudes expressed are stupid and moronic regardless of the religion of the person expressing them and that is my point.

Yet you defended them through your apologia in regards to "well, that's just how they were brought up".

Time and time again (even in this thread) it is Muslim this muslim that with total disregard to what certain Christian or Jews or others do in the exact same situation.

Yes many Muslims and especially religious Muslims are anti-gay, but so are many Christians and Jews, especially the religious radicals. There is zero difference in their attitudes. And this often goes on many issues, the amount of agreement among the radicals in any religion is startling.

Time and time again, a trait that is common in Muslims is compared fallaciously to one that is uncommon among Jews or Christians, or the magnitude of the reaction by Muslims is downplayed by dredging up a much less severe reacion among Christians or Jews. It's the knee reactionary approach. In the case of this thread, 100% of the Muslims polled held certain attitudes. That you would actually try to state that there is zero difference in attitudes is so completely irrational as to defy any attempts to discuss at all.

Focusing constantly on Muslims and their views is un-intelligent drivel by people (usually) on the right but also in general. One should focus on the opinion's and actions of the people in question regardless of what religion they have..A gay basher is a gay basher, regardless if he is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, an Athiest or a martian.

It is the sticking of ones fingers in the ears and going "naah naah naah " that is unintelligent. Intelligent people acknowlege facts rather than seeking so resolutely to explain away that they do little but deny, obfuscate, misdirect, and otherwise display that they have merely decided that two very different things are actually the same, and so by golly, they are going to lash out at anything that details the difference.


But as long as the right seems to be in their anti-Muslim mode, then they will be countered by people like me, with their own hypocrisy in the fact they are not just as equally critical of their own "people" who have exactly the same views often and are not Muslim.

Your preoccupation with this simplistic labelling of yours has blinded you to the fact that the most right wing population among you is Muslim. I am not a member of the right. I do not support the right, I do not vote for the right, I favor complete and equal rights for women and gay people, view social justice as trumping social order, favor a progressive taxation structure, and strong limits upon predatory capitalism, yet despit all that, there will always be somebody so lacking in political acumen that they would label me as "right wing" for actually supporting liberal values.

The wheels have truly fallen off the political cart if liberalism is now "right wing".
 
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Going slightly off topic. extremism, from both sides, has and does breed disproportionate reactionary responses. After reading various articles about the 7/7 bombers what often shines through is the utter hopelessness some elements of society feel [in this case the Muslim community] The bombers grew up in a westernized society, integrating for the most part-holding down jobs or in education, but still became radicalised. What we need to understand is aggression often breeds aggression. This is not me coming from a pacifist stance but following logic.



Paul



I found some material which was I think study work for schools and left a link before (unfortunately on broken computer).

This was very informative in that it showed the perspective from people who had grown up here. A lot of them were brought up by parents who wanted them to feel British but they found themselves unaccepted as British. They ended up not knowing what their identity was and some of them wrote how they were swayed fro a while by extremist voices - more than any other reason for a sense of belonging and identity.

However very few people ever become terrorist in such environments - we had something similar in the 60's when some people became involved in terrorists groups. Regardless of how people feel and even if being at a particularly vulnerable age they can be moved, very few will go. The article says that Muslim immigrants do like our democracy, our justice our human rights. That is what some people tend to forget.

You are so right that people react to agression by agression. Time has told me, generally in this country we do move through things and my guess is that we will do that with Muslims re integrating and being as against the odd terrorist as the rest of us.othing stands still

When peopel meet intolerance they also meet that with intollerance. Nothing stands still however and searches show lots of movement in the Muslim community.

Just one different but recent example

British Muslims most patriotic in Europe - Telegraph
 
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