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Ocasio Cortez says we should support socialism

KLATTU said:
They all got prosperous *because* of capitalism. Than, naturally, socialist policies followed to leech off the profits.. Familiar pattern.
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Cute goalposts, buddy. Capitalism can never fail, it can only be failed?
 
A free and fair system of government must include both communal and capitalistic systems. The US has always included both. The paranoia about social programs is not justified and it provides no better alternatives under a purely capitalistic system of government. Without communal endeavors the quality of life is severely diminished.

Unfettered capitalism is neither fair or self sustaining. Inevitably it favors a relative few who dominate the markets and eventually destroy competition and a fair distribution of essential resources. Once that happens, the markets fail and the system falls into a fascist state because the vast majority of people have no power, and struggle to survive. It becomes the law of the jungle where the strong eat the weak, then each other, then starve.

Rule of law and well regulated markets are a requirement for a free and fair capitalistic system.

The government is the best means to implement communally that which cannot or will not be implemented through private enterprise. These include the military, transportation, scientific research, energy, education, communications, medicine, environmental protection, quality of goods and services, safety, emergency services, long range planning, justice and protection of critical natural resources.
 
Athanasius68 said:
They have been fortunate not to have gone full socialist. They have been saved by capitalism.
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Agreed. Nothing is a pure system, all are hybrids. The European socialist nations are fundamentally free market countries with a higher degree of socialism than we have here.

My sub-thread here was largely in response to someone that tried to tell me socialism was communism and that the American approach was better than all others. I was pointing out that socialism was not inherently bad nor the American system beyond reproach.
 
Deuce said:
Cute goalposts, buddy. Capitalism can never fail, it can only be failed?
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there is no example of a poor nation becoming rich with big-government policies ,though we have tragic examples of rich nations becoming poor with statism.
 
Bassman said:
Either way, freedom and individual liberty, hallmarks of the USA, are lost.
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And yet, conservatives routinely throw tantrums of the removal of monuments of people who literally fought to keep Americans enslaved.
 
Deuce said:
Is individual liberty lost with our socialized roads?
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In some ways yes. Speed limits, window tint restrictions, audio volume limits, emission standards, all are things we must follow if we choose to use the roads or face government penalties
 
KLATTU said:
Today's tough trivia.

Name one country that has gotten prosperous because of collectivist policies????

{cue Jeopardy music}
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The United States. We have a number of 'collectivist' policies as does every industrialized country on the planet.
 
JasperL said:
The United States. We have a number of 'collectivist' policies as does every industrialized country on the planet.
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NOPE, The US did not get prosperous because of said policies. Those policies came AFTER the US was already prosperous. The US got prosperous when Gov't was really small.
 
KLATTU said:
They all got prosperous *because* of capitalism. Than, naturally, socialist policies followed to leech off the profits.. Familiar pattern.
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This is the fundamental flaw in far right wing logic. It's not an either/or proposition.
 
JasperL said:
T. It's not an either/or proposition.
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Yea it kinda is. Until you can name me a country that was puttering along but then exploding becuase they decided to go all in on Big Government.
 
KLATTU said:
NOPE, The US did not get prosperous because of said policies. Those policies came AFTER the US was already prosperous. The US got prosperous when Gov't was really small.
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Right, small enough to fight a war, seize land effectively for free as we expanded westward, protect it from native Americans and foreign countries, grant that land to settlers for free, etc.

And are you really arguing that our public schools, including public colleges and universities, public roads, ports and other infrastructure, police, fire, national defense (army, navy, etc.), courts, parks, and much more make us less prosperous? Do you believe that the losers in capitalism - and losing everything is a necessary part of a successful capitalistic system - starving or going homeless, their kids dying for lack of medical care, because there are no safety nets HARMS the sustainability of our 'free market' system over time? I don't. Seems to me that taking care of the poor and old and disabled and others is a necessary cost of 'capitalism' - that without those "collectivist" policies the risk of ACTUAL socialism, or communism goes up, not down.

Put another way, populations all over (including in Central and South America) didn't turn to actual socialism/communism because capitalism was working for the population as a whole, but because it was not. Unfettered 'capitalism' tends to result in a few big winners, who are able to corrupt whatever system of government is in place, and lots of people working for subsistence. When in history has that not been the case? So capitalism as we know it only works when the benefits are widely shared, and that sharing is in large part forced by government, it's not a natural part of "capitalism."
 
Bassman said:
Either way, freedom and individual liberty, hallmarks of the USA, are lost.
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Yup. All is lost. I suggest you move somewhere else then.
 
Deuce said:
Is individual liberty lost with our socialized roads?
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And social security? And socialist street lights and signs? :lol:
 
KLATTU said:
NOPE, The US did not get prosperous because of said policies. Those policies came AFTER the US was already prosperous. The US got prosperous when Gov't was really small.
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It's clear you are setting up a no true scotsman fallacy. But little you apparently know that setting up and economy with it's own currency is a pretty big government policy derived thing.
 
Logical1 said:
President Trump says Americans would rather walk their dogs than eat them!!!!! That is what they are doing in Venezuela. Do they taste just like chicken????
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Only idiots with zero historical knowledge or the naïve youth would even consider such nonsense.

left preaching socialism.jpg
 
Logical1 said:
President Trump says Americans would rather walk their dogs than eat them!!!!! That is what they are doing in Venezuela. Do they taste just like chicken????
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If you are wondering where this champion OP post came from... the OP is just reiterating a right-wing meme. Which explains why he didn't source it. He wanted to pretend he had an original thought. :lol:

 
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KLATTU said:
there is no example of a poor nation becoming rich with big-government policies ,though we have tragic examples of rich nations becoming poor with statism.
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The British Empire would like a word with you
 
Logical1 said:
President Trump says Americans would rather walk their dogs than eat them!!!!! That is what they are doing in Venezuela. Do they taste just like chicken????
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Ocasio Cortez idiot Bush 41.jpg
 
poweRob said:
If you are wondering where this champion OP post came from... the OP is just reiterating a right-wing meme. Which explains why he didn't source it. He wanted to pretend he had an original thought. :lol:

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Trump Jr. made a rather amusing RESPONSE to a tweet by Ocasio- Cortez that America should try socialism. Rather than leave it alone, or respond with some witticism of her own, she reminds Trump jr. that she will shortly have subpoena power.

Meanwhile, half the posts on this particular OP are outraged over the long standing mere suggestion by conservatives that socialists are not about freedom and liberty.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Trump Jr. made a rather amusing RESPONSE to a tweet by Ocasio- Cortez that America should try socialism. Rather than leave it alone, or respond with some witticism of her own, she reminds Trump jr. that she will shortly have subpoena power.

Meanwhile, half the posts on this particular OP are outraged over the long standing mere suggestion by conservatives that socialists are not about freedom and liberty.
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Each day she sounds more like a young Fidel. That worked out so well for Cuba. Everyday Fidel ate steak and Cubans ate more rice and beans.
 
Deuce said:
You are so pathetically enslaved to your propaganda masters you haven't even begun to wonder why they always bring up Venezuela.

Ask all your liberal friends what nation they think we should model our laws and social safety nets after more closely. None of them are going to say Venezuela. And you'll never understand why that is, will you?
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Sadly, there are few actual Liberals around anymore.
 
One word for Cortez---------------------------Venezuela!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well it's heading that way: not Venezuela or Cuba, but more like Western Europe or Australasia. Or Canada - how awful is that?

Medicare and Medicaid are 'socialism', so are public schools. Various forms of welfare and income support and programs such as food stamps, which a study recently showed has been successful in lifting millions out of poverty and giving them opportunity. A civilized country can't help but have some 'socialist' policies because they help keep a country civilized.

As the old guard lose their ghostly grip on power (and the recent exposure of gerrymandering, election fraud and lame-duck power grabs have shown, they are very scared) and a younger, more diverse America takes shape, it's an inevitable change. That folks, is progress.

And it does not end in Venezuela. Venezuela' problem is dictatorship. Look to wannabe dictators for that. Hint, it's not Cortez.
 
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