Lifting the Gaza Blockade: Practical Issues

[washunut]

As said previously, I do agree with that.

However the mix of goods permitted to be transferred to Gaza should be voted by the United Nations (after hearing the advice of security experts and a subsequent debate), since any list made by Israel would probably be arbitrary and disproportionately restricted, as our argument exchange has shown.

After the last 30 years od tirades from the UN you really think Israel should let them make some type of list. How about let the UN do the job that was promised in Lebanon.

Let's try and be honest, most of Europe would probably prefer to have Israel be destroyed. So any type of defense they use is turned against them.

What makes this especially shameful is that this occurs after the tragedy of Jews living in Europe. So if you want Israel to no longer exist, what would you have the Jews in Israel do. Please do not insult anyone here and say the answer is a one state solution where everyone lives as brothers. Did not work in Europe, will not work in the ME.

 

[CrazyMcCool]

Chocolate is just an example, it's also canned fruits and many types of food or basic goods such as shoes (until recently).

So your turn now, could you give me one reason to restrict the entrance of certain types of food in Gaza?

Punishment because rockets are fired from Gaza?

Take what I said about the choclate, and apply it to X item that is not entred.
kthnx

Also yes, infact that is why, and if it is collective punishment as you would say, ( even thou when an IDF solider gets jumped by a few kids and he shots one cause he about to die of being stabed to death we get calls for the dystruction of israel, that is not in anyway a collective punishment I agree with that....in which i mean if you believe that ur a bigger idiot than I could describe no offesne i am talking about people do do believe that)

 

[bub]

After the last 30 years od tirades from the UN you really think Israel should let them make some type of list

Who else then?

How about let the UN do the job that was promised in Lebanon.

Let's try and be honest, most of Europe would probably prefer to have Israel be destroyed. So any type of defense they use is turned against them.

What makes this especially shameful is that this occurs after the tragedy of Jews living in Europe. So if you want Israel to no longer exist, what would you have the Jews in Israel do. Please do not insult anyone here and say the answer is a one state solution where everyone lives as brothers. Did not work in Europe, will not work in the ME.

Totally off topic so I'm just going to answer to the supposed European hatred against Israel: who gave nukes to Israel?

 

[bub]

Take what I said about the choclate, and apply it to X item that is not entred.
kthnx

Also yes, infact that is why, and if it is collective punishment as you would say, ( even thou when an IDF solider gets jumped by a few kids and he shots one cause he about to die of being stabed to death we get calls for the dystruction of israel, that is not in anyway a collective punishment I agree with that....in which i mean if you believe that ur a bigger idiot than I could describe no offesne i am talking about people do do believe that)

Thank you for your honesty.

As for the IDF soldiers who got stabbed...that's condemnable too but that is not "collective punishment". That being said, I would like to remember everyone that I never said the commandos on the boat had no right to defend themselves.

 

[CrazyMcCool]

Thank you for your honesty.

As for the IDF soldiers who got stabbed...that's condemnable too but that is not "collective punishment". That being said, I would like to remember everyone that I never said the commandos on the boat had no right to defend themselves.

I wasnt talking bout the boat m8

These kind of things happen to soliders here..Kids come and stab them...why? Cause they are tought that everything bad thats happening to them is cause of the guy in the IDF suit.
Hamas and other groups claiming to try and help are just killing the peace proccess by being arrogant as their firiends in 1948 where they decided to attack israel and lose the war...and then when offred back they decided its not a good deal and said no..and now that they want it back and we give it back, we get this..

Intresting dont you think?

When you are dealing withpeople who can not comprimise, it will never end..

 

[bub]

When you are dealing withpeople who can not comprimise, it will never end..

So true!

...

 

[CrazyMcCool]

mhm, we have had governments before that could compromise, but it always came down to the Palestinian side not agreeing ( actully they do but groups like Hamas ect decided to talk for them cause...they are ..smart?)

And yes I like to keep honoest, thats why I dont feel like I am a rightst or a lefitst...Cause i just use logic when it comes down to it...Its logical Israel tried to stop the rockets, and tighten its punishment on them till they get a clue...

And if you look back at the situation, it was really forced apon israel to do this...Cause going in to fight in the streets is stupid, and i guess we did it cause..we got a stupid government right now..
But the blockade == a lot less life lost and bloodshed...However something that I feel like should of ended in a few months is still going on...and I got to say it points to one thing, the blockade is no effective enough, Prehaps we are givng to much food...Cause if I was in charge of starving and dieing people I would do w/e I can to help my people...so thats what is whats wrong with this picture..

thats my 2 cents...But anything i said in this post might be bs cause I am half a sleep and i dont know what I am typing

 

[Degreez]

As an alternative to lifting the maritime blockade, nations, international bodies, and NGOs can ask Israel to review and perhaps revise the mix of goods permitted to be transferred to the Gaza Strip e.g. they could request that chocolate, so widely-discussed at DP, might be one such item.

However, if nations, international bodies, or NGOs want Israel to altogether lift the blockade, it is incumbent on them to offer a suitable mechanism that addresses Israel's security needs. Clearly, that is a difficult task, but no sovereign state can abandon its security needs, particularly those that directly relate to the lives of its people.

They want Israel to lift the blockade because that blockade causes excessive damage to the civilian population in relation to the capabilities of militants to launch rocket attacks. A requirement for a blockade is that any blockade must be effective, and its question of effectiveness is a question of fact.

 

[Regicollis]

the rest of the people of Gaza voted Hamas in;

44,45 % of the Palestinians voted for Hamas with a turnout of 74,6 %. Thus only roughly a third of the adult Palestinians voted for Hamas. What about the other two thirds who did not "vote war on themselves"?

 

[digsbe]

44,45 % of the Palestinians voted for Hamas with a turnout of 74,6 %. Thus only roughly a third of the adult Palestinians voted for Hamas. What about the other two thirds who did not "vote war on themselves"?

How do you know the other third wouldn't vote for Hamas? As far as I see things Hamas isn't being opposed, when are the next Gaza elections?

 

[Regicollis]

How do you know the other third wouldn't vote for Hamas?

Because the other two thirds voted for someone else or stayed at home.

As far as I see things Hamas isn't being opposed,

If you country was being occupied I don't think you would try to overthrow your government if it was the only major force fighting the occupation.

when are the next Gaza elections?

This is unclear as the struggle between Hamas and Fatah makes it impossible to hold elections.

 

[digsbe]

Because the other two thirds voted for someone else or stayed at home.

I was referring to the one third who stayed at home. Regardless, they did vote in terrorism even if by a plurality.

If you country was being occupied I don't think you would try to overthrow your government if it was the only major force fighting the occupation.

Gaza isn't occupied, Israel removed all Jews by force and now there are only Arab Palestinians.

This is unclear as the struggle between Hamas and Fatah makes it impossible to hold elections.

So Hamas has power indefinitely until some kind of conflict is resolved between a political party and a terrorist organization?

 

[donsutherland1]

They want Israel to lift the blockade because that blockade causes excessive damage to the civilian population in relation to the capabilities of militants to launch rocket attacks. A requirement for a blockade is that any blockade must be effective, and its question of effectiveness is a question of fact.

So long as the state safeguarding its security believes that the security benefits of the blockade outweigh its myriad costs, it will maintain the blockade. Those calling for an end to the blockade need to offer or construct a credible alternative that addresses Israel's security needs at least as effectively as the blockade does. No sovereign state will abandon its needs, particularly those as basic as the safety of its own people, simply because outsiders suggest such an approach. If others have suggestions for modifying the blockade so that Israel's security needs are safeguarded and the impact on ordinary Gaza residents is mitigated, that's a different matter. But seeking an end to the blockade without offering any credible alternative is something Israel cannot reasonably be expected to accept. Today's foiled terrorist operation provides just a reminder of the risks Gaza-based terrorist entities pose. Moreover, whether the timing of the foiled operation earlier today is coincidental or might somehow be related to the expectation among the responsible terrorist organization that Israel had been distracted by the heavy international pressure under which Israel currently finds itself remains to be seen.

 

[Gardener]

Those calling for an end to the blockade need to offer or construct a credible alternative that addresses Israel's security needs at least as effectively as the blockade does.

Those calling for an end of the blockade are not concerned with Israel's security to begin with.

That's the whole point of their wanting to end it.

 

[donsutherland1]

Let's try and be honest, most of Europe would probably prefer to have Israel be destroyed.

I don't agree with this. I do believe that there is an idealistic tendency in liberal Western democracies in which pragmatism and compromise have become almost second nature in politics, business, and society to assume that all parties everywhere are similar. That is a naive assumption.

There have always been and currently are actors (state- and non-state actors) who view compromise as surrender. Revolutionaries typically seek to destroy the current order. They don't seek to accommodate or work within it. Hamas is a revolutionary entity. It explicitly rejects negotiation and compromise in its charter and also anchors that rejectionism in religion. The former principles spell out Hamas' view of diplomacy/compromise. The latter creates an enormous barrier to pragmatism and license for any future leaders of Hamas to rescind any very limited pragmatic decisions that might wind up being undertaken.

 

[Gardener]

I don't agree with this. I do believe that there is an idealistic tendency in liberal Western democracies in which pragmatism and compromise have become almost second nature in politics, business, and society to assume that all parties everywhere are similar. That is a naive assumption.

There have always been and currently are actors (state- and non-state actors) who view compromise as surrender. Revolutionaries typically seek to destroy the current order. They don't seek to accommodate or work within it. Hamas is a revolutionary entity. It explicitly rejects negotiation and compromise in its charter and also anchors that rejectionism in religion. The former principles spell out Hamas' view of diplomacy/compromise. The latter creates an enormous barrier to pragmatism and license for any future leaders of Hamas to rescind any very limited pragmatic decisions that might wind up being undertaken.

I think it's a naive assumption that all the bile directed by Europeans towards Israel reflects on points of view contrary to those actually expressed, myself.

If Europeans were concerned with the security of Israel they would be saying so instead of acting as a support group for those who wish to destroy it.

 

[donsutherland1]

Those calling for an end of the blockade are not concerned with Israel's security to begin with.

That's the whole point of their wanting to end it.

Unfortunately, many who are doing so are not concerned with Israel's security needs. To date, some of Israel's loudest critics have offered nothing of substance that could even begin to address Israel's security needs.

 

[washunut]

I don't agree with this. I do believe that there is an idealistic tendency in liberal Western democracies in which pragmatism and compromise have become almost second nature in politics, business, and society to assume that all parties everywhere are similar. That is a naive assumption.

There have always been and currently are actors (state- and non-state actors) who view compromise as surrender. Revolutionaries typically seek to destroy the current order. They don't seek to accommodate or work within it. Hamas is a revolutionary entity. It explicitly rejects negotiation and compromise in its charter and also anchors that rejectionism in religion. The former principles spell out Hamas' view of diplomacy/compromise. The latter creates an enormous barrier to pragmatism and license for any future leaders of Hamas to rescind any very limited pragmatic decisions that might wind up being undertaken.

You are correct on Hamas. But I do not think it is a specific group only. When the PLO went more mainline, then we saw Hamas rise. If Hamas were to negotiate with Israel there would be a group to take their place.

As to my comments on Europe, how do you explain the different reactions when we have the fiasco with the flotilla, where Israel was blindsided with people on board looking to ( and becoming) martyrs and when 4,000 rockets are fired into civilians from a neighboring country. I think that some of the peacekeeping forces in Lebanon are European, how well have they enforced the not rearming Hezbellah which is essentially their mission.

Closer to home we have the views of the Dean of the White House press corps. How far off is she from the thinking of members of the democratic party. Closer than many want to admit. The evidence, look at the resonse from the liberal commentators on the Sunday morning shows which was very disappointing.

 

[Gardener]

Closer to home we have the views of the Dean of the White House press corps. How far off is she from the thinking of members of the democratic party. Closer than many want to admit. The evidence, look at the resonse from the liberal commentators on the Sunday morning shows which was very disappointing.

Her views are certainly in line with many who are in the Democratic party. THis is not the liberal branch of the party, though, but the reactionary illiberal leftists who wouldn't recognize liberal principles if their life depended on it.

 

[washunut]

Her views are certainly in line with many who are in the Democratic party. THis is not the liberal branch of the party, though, but the reactionary illiberal leftists who wouldn't recognize liberal principles if their life depended on it.

I think you would agree that they and the media call them the liberal wing of the democratic party.

 

[Gardener]

I think you would agree that they and the media call them the liberal wing of the democratic party.

Unfortunately, the word has become corrupted beyond all recognition.

 

[washunut]

Unfortunately, the word has become corrupted beyond all recognition.

Agree, from a 1960's liberal

 

[Gardener]

Agree, from a 1960's liberal

Me, too.

I've actually read some particularly stupid and hateful comment that compare the viscious thugs who attcked the first Israeli that descended down the rope ladder to the peace activists of the 60's. In what Truly Orwellian alternate universe?

 

[washunut]

Me, too.

I've actually read some particularly stupid and hateful comment that compare the viscious thugs who attcked the first Israeli that descended down the rope ladder to the peace activists of the 60's. In what Truly Orwellian alternate universe?

Seems like a combination of tortured logic and trying to show moral equivelency where there is none.

 

[bub]

Unfortunately, many who are doing so are not concerned with Israel's security needs. To date, some of Israel's loudest critics have offered nothing of substance that could even begin to address Israel's security needs.

You are correct on Hamas. But I do not think it is a specific group only. When the PLO went more mainline, then we saw Hamas rise. If Hamas were to negotiate with Israel there would be a group to take their place.

As to my comments on Europe, how do you explain the different reactions when we have the fiasco with the flotilla, where Israel was blindsided with people on board looking to ( and becoming) martyrs and when 4,000 rockets are fired into civilians from a neighboring country. I think that some of the peacekeeping forces in Lebanon are European, how well have they enforced the not rearming Hezbellah which is essentially their mission.

Closer to home we have the views of the Dean of the White House press corps. How far off is she from the thinking of members of the democratic party. Closer than many want to admit. The evidence, look at the resonse from the liberal commentators on the Sunday morning shows which was very disappointing.

You have extremely misinformed views on Europeans.

We may be very critical towards the blockade or some other policies, but that is because we are convinced that these are the policies that anihilate any hope for peace. All Europeans are asking as a "condemnation" of Israel is an independent inquiry...and even that is "anti-Israel"!

All we want is peace in the ME, and since we believe that the blockade or raids such as the one on the flotilla are just adding fuel to fire, we condemn them. That's very logical.

If Europeans were really anti-Israel, they would not have recognized this country, they would not have given their nuclear technology to Israel, and they would not be selling weapons to Israel.