Lifting the Gaza Blockade: Practical Issues

[bub]

Exactly. And no one on this thread has been able to conceive/suggest a better alternative.

I did but you dismissed it on the grounds that "some items have dual purpose", while basically everything can have a dual purpose. You can drown someone with water or spaghetti sauce, you can kill someone with a coconut, you can remove an eye with a fork...so according to your argument the people in Gaza should not have water, spaghetti sauce, coconuts or forks.

 

[bub]

Another thing just came to mind bub. Do you think JFK ever thought it would be appropriate if Cuban children didn't get chocolate and shoes? Clearly a missile cannot be launched from Cuba if a single child isn't eating chocolate or not wearing shoes

Well there is also an US embargo on Cuba. I started a thread a few weeks ago about it but it does not interest many posters

 

[ferrugem]

An Israeli citizen perspective:

It was well before my time, but history tells us that President John F. Kennedy ordered a naval blockade of Cuba when it was discovered that Russian missiles capable of targeting US cities were being delivered and activated on Cuban soil. Mind you, not one of these missiles had ever been fired at the United States. Nevertheless, Kennedy considered this act as a direct threat to US national security and ordered the blockade. Every ship approaching Cuba would be intercepted by the US Navy, boarded, and the cargo inspected. Kennedy considered this principle so critical that he risked a nuclear confrontation with the USSR. Khrushchev eventually backed down and all missiles from Cuba were removed. To this day, the US government still imposes an economic boycott on Cuba.

Israel blockaded Gaza in most part due to infiltration suicide-attacks and rocket barrages constantly fired into nearby Israeli towns and villages. No US president would put up with such mayhem inflicted on American citizens, and no Israeli PM would put up with it either. The Egyptian government has also blockaded its portion of the border with Gaza and restricts the ingress/egress of people and materials.

Some have suggested that the blockade is a security failure. This a patently false. Suicide-bombings in Israel are now virtually nil and have been for many years. Rocket and missile parts have been smuggled in through tunnels, but this activity would have increased a thousand fold without the blockade.

The most vocal objection to the blockade resides on foundational pillars of humanitarian-concern and collective-punishment. To some extent, I can agree with these concerns. The problem is, no one has offered a viable/workable alternative. One only has to look at Lebanon and the re-armament of Hizb'Allah to appreciate that the United Nations is totally inept at preventing or even curtailing the delivery of missiles. Hizb'Allah even boasts publicly that its missile inventory has trebled since the UN brokered cease-fire agreement of 2006. The UN sits there and does little to nothing. But when the **** hits the fan, you can bet the farm that they will blame Israel and then scurry away like frightened rodents.

Israel has stated many times that the blockade would be virtually removed if Hamas ceases rocket/infiltration attacks on Israel and the captured Israeli soldier (in captivity since 2006) is released. Hamas says it cannot guarantee the former. Israel has released hundreds of prisoners already to secure the release of Gilad Shalit, but it is never enough. There are always additional insatiable demands.

So I ask. If not a blockade, then what? What mechanism? I want a real/viable proposal that satisfies both major concerns; (a) satisfying Israeli security concerns and (b) increasing the flow of legitimate staples and non-corruptible materials into Gaza. Don't even bother with UN/EU monitors. Neither is particularly competent nor trustworthy.

I wonder how people forget that Israeli government released more then 900 prisoners some with blood on their hands, for 2 lifeless bodies of Ehud Goldwaser and Eldad Regev... i saw it live and that was heart breaking moment...
I cant think of another country that will pay such a price even for a living person.

 

[bub]

I wonder how people forget that Israeli government released more then 900 prisoners some with blood on their hands, for 2 lifeless bodies of Ehud Goldwaser and Eldad Regev... i saw it live and that was heart breaking moment...
I cant think of another country that will pay such a price even for a living person.

Yeah but how many prisoners do they have? 5,000? 10,000? The Hamas has got a single prisoner.

 

[donsutherland1]

Exactly. And no one on this thread has been able to conceive/suggest a better alternative.

Of course. It's very easy for Israel's critics, many of whom ignore Israel's genuine security needs, to argue for lifting the maritime blockade. It's far more difficult to construct a viable alternative that would be at least as effective as the blockade in keeping weapons, weapon-components, and dual-use materials out of the Gaza Strip. Few believe the blockade is perfect. However, it could be the least bad solution for addressing Israel's current security needs. If there were clearly superior methods that it could pursue on its own, I suspect that Israel would already be employing them.

In ways, the situation is not very different from that which prevailed during the intifada. Israel was criticized by many when it launched military operations. So, Israel turned to a passive measure (the security fence). Although the fence created inconvenience for Palestinians, it saved lives (Israeli and Palestinian) and contributed to bringing an end to the intifada. Saving lives takes precedence over inconvenience. Yet, Israel's critics still complained without offering viable alternatives. In effect, they sought to deprive Israel of both active and passive measures of self-defense, an inherent right enjoyed by all sovereign states.

 

[Tashah]

I did but you dismissed it on the grounds that "some items have dual purpose", while basically everything can have a dual purpose. You can drown someone with water or spaghetti sauce, you can kill someone with a coconut, you can remove an eye with a fork...so according to your argument the people in Gaza should not have water, spaghetti sauce, coconuts or forks.

You're being pedantic and lazy. Since you have no experience whatsoever in true dual-use items, I even helped you.

I provided you one specific common item - construction nails - that has an accepted use (building) and a weaponized use (missile fleshettes).

If this is so easy, why can't you think of a practical solution for even one measly item?

 

[Regicollis]

The list of approved goods into Gaza is being changed and updated all of the time.

The constantly and arbitrary changes to the list of banned goods only serves to make the blockade harder on Palestinians as they can never be sure that their goods will go through the Israeli occupation authorities.

Israel considers every probable use of the goods it approves/disapproves into the Gaza strip.

How can ginger, chocolate and shoes be used for terrorism?

The answer is clear: they can't. Banning these goods is just a way the Israelis harass the Palestinians.

There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and the kids there look quite healthy to me, so I don't know what's the UN talking about.
Just watch the videos from Gaza and judge by yourself.
Kids don't become unhealthy just because chocolate isn't being let in.

The only reason there is not an outright famine in Gaza is the basic humanitarian aid provided by the international community. The Israeli blockade makes it completely impossible for a viable economy to exist in Gaza and thus increases the security threat to Israel.

When unemployment is around 40 % and there are shortages of everything because of Israeli policies this generates a real and justified resentment towards Israel - in short the perfect conditions for recruiting people to militant groups. If there was a healthy economy in Gaza people would be less inclined to become militant; you are not very inclined to blow yourself up when you have to go to work the morning after.

Punishing ordinary Palestinians en masse is not only unjust and illegal; it also worsens the security of Israel.

 

[bub]

You're being pedantic and lazy. Since you have no experience whatsoever in true dual-use items, I even helped you.

I provided you one specific common item - construction nails - that has an accepted use (building) and a weaponized use (missile fleshettes).

If this is so easy, why can't you think of a practical solution for even one measly item?

I have already replied to that: nails are a necessity good, and any object can be used as shrapnel in a Qassam: metal bits, razors, ball bearings...I guess there are billions of metal bits that could be used in nail bombs anyways, so I do not see the point of prevening nails from entering Gaza.

How many shrapnel bombs can you make with the metal bits from this car? 50? 100?

 

[bub]

Of course. It's very easy for Israel's critics, many of whom ignore Israel's genuine security needs, to argue for lifting the maritime blockade. It's far more difficult to construct a viable alternative that would be at least as effective as the blockade in keeping weapons, weapon-components, and dual-use materials out of the Gaza Strip. Few believe the blockade is perfect. However, it could be the least bad solution for addressing Israel's current security needs. If there were clearly superior methods that it could pursue on its own, I suspect that Israel would already be employing them.

In ways, the situation is not very different from that which prevailed during the intifada. Israel was criticized by many when it launched military operations. So, Israel turned to a passive measure (the security fence). Although the fence created inconvenience for Palestinians, it saved lives (Israeli and Palestinian) and contributed to bringing an end to the intifada. Saving lives takes precedence over inconvenience. Yet, Israel's critics still complained without offering viable alternatives. In effect, they sought to deprive Israel of both active and passive measures of self-defense, an inherent right enjoyed by all sovereign states.

What do you think on the blockade on macaronis and chocolate? Is that part of the Israeli security needs?

As for the "security fence", it's condemned because it does not follow the border of Israel, it annexes Palestinian territory and protects illegal colonies.

 

[Apocalypse]

The constantly and arbitrary changes to the list of banned goods only serves to make the blockade harder on Palestinians as they can never be sure that their goods will go through the Israeli occupation authorities.

Naturally, but your claim for collective punishment is not based.

How can ginger, chocolate and shoes be used for terrorism?

The answer is clear: they can't. Banning these goods is just a way the Israelis harass the Palestinians.

Well that's not clear at all, and I'm sure that there's an explanation.
Why would Israel desire to "harass the Palestinians", according to you?

The only reason there is not an outright famine in Gaza is the basic humanitarian aid provided by the international community.

Bottom line is that there is no humanitarian crisis in the strip. Explain it any way you see fit, it remains the same.

The Israeli blockade makes it completely impossible for a viable economy to exist in Gaza and thus increases the security threat to Israel.

It lowers drastically the security threat to Israel by preventing weapons or materials that can be used in harmful ways from entering the strip.

When unemployment is around 40 % and there are shortages of everything because of Israeli policies this generates a real and justified resentment towards Israel - in short the perfect conditions for recruiting people to militant groups. If there was a healthy economy in Gaza people would be less inclined to become militant; you are not very inclined to blow yourself up when you have to go to work the morning after.

The unemployment is due to the Gazans depending on the humanitarian aid instead of working.
It's way easier to simply make a living without having to work, if someone else is sponsoring you.

Punishing ordinary Palestinians en masse is not only unjust and illegal; it also worsens the security of Israel.

No one is punishing the ordinary Palestinian, the blockade was only placed by Israel and Egypt once Hamas has taken power, not a moment before it.

 

[donsutherland1]

What do you think on the blockade on macaronis and chocolate? Is that part of the Israeli security needs?

It's my understanding that Israel has restricted incoming items to necessities. Chocolate is not considered a necessary food. Needless to say, I do believe that when it comes to restricting food items, the public relations costs exceed the benefits.

As for the "security fence", it's condemned because it does not follow the border of Israel, it annexes Palestinian territory and protects illegal colonies.

No territory was annexed. The fate of the settlements will need to be resolved at the negotiating table. Under a peace agreement, Israel will very likely retain 3-5 major settlement blocs while the remainder of the settlements are removed. But none of that has happened yet. As Israel's government is responsible for safeguarding the lives of Israel's citizens, it would be breaching its most basic responsibility if it did not take measures to protect the lives of the settlers. Israel has made abundantly clear that the security fence is strictly a security fence. It is not intended to constitute a border. The final boundaries will be defined in negotiations.

 

[bub]

It's my understanding that Israel has restricted incoming items to necessities. Chocolate is not considered a necessary food. Needless to say, I do believe that when it comes to restricting food items, the public relations costs exceed the benefits.

Yes, it's a disaster in terms of PR.

But what about the morality of such restrictions? Is it ethical/moral to do that, especially when you know that there are many problems linked to malnutrition? Do you condemn it?

The report says the heavy restrictions on all major sectors of Gaza's economy, compounded by a cost of living increase of at least 40 per cent, is causing "progressive deterioration in food security for up to 70 per cent of Gaza's population". That in turn is forcing people to cut household expenditures down to "survival levels".

"Chronic malnutrition is on a steadily rising trend and micronutrient deficiencies are of great concern," it said.

Chronic malnutrition in Gaza blamed on Israel - Middle East, World - The Independent

No territory was annexed. The fate of the settlements will need to be resolved at the negotiating table. Under a peace agreement, Israel will very likely retain 3-5 major settlement blocs while the remainder of the settlements are removed. But none of that has happened yet.

So these "3-5 major settlement blocs" are annexed Palestinian territory.

And what about the impact on the lives of the Palestinians? Do you find it it normal that Israel prevents Palestinian farmers from harvesting?
West Bank: Israeli restrictions cut Palestinians off from their land
Harvesting olives in the West Bank: not as simple as it sounds

As Israel's government is responsible for safeguarding the lives of Israel's citizens, it would be breaching its most basic responsibility if it did not take measures to protect the lives of the settlers. Israel has made abundantly clear that the security fence is strictly a security fence. It is not intended to constitute a border. The final boundaries will be defined in negotiations.

Why do they keep on encouraging Israeli to settle in the illegal colonies instead of telling them to stay inside Israel? That would guarantee their security!

 

[ferrugem]

Yeah but how many prisoners do they have? 5,000? 10,000? The Hamas has got a single prisoner.

The only difference is that all the 5-10K are a direct threat on israeli civilians, most of them are killers or ones who failed to explode or have been captured.. yes, this is the amount of terrorism acts being executed by the terror orgs. Gilad Shalit was a soldier in uniform, who defended his country when several terrorists infiltrated to israeli side in order to kill as many as they can.
Do you know how each and every one of those prisoners live? the have Cable TV, air conditioning, almost any food they desire.. some of them even prefer saying in jail because they live without troubles.

 

[bub]

The only difference is that all the 5-10K are a direct threat on israeli civilians, most of them are killers or ones who failed to explode or have been captured.. yes, this is the amount of terrorism acts being executed by the terror orgs. Gilad Shalit was a soldier in uniform, who defended his country when several terrorists infiltrated to israeli side in order to kill as many as they can.
Do you know how each and every one of those prisoners live? the have Cable TV, air conditioning, almost any food they desire.. some of them even prefer saying in jail because they live without troubles.

So he is a prisoner of war, I don't see the problem. During the WWII there were hundreds of Japanese POW in Australia, for example, and they were not released until the end of the war.

 

[Tashah]

I have already replied to that: nails are a necessity good, and any object can be used as shrapnel in a Qassam: metal bits, razors, ball bearings...I guess there are billions of metal bits that could be used in nail bombs anyways, so I do not see the point of prevening nails from entering Gaza.

Well then. There we have it. Rather than opt for the most-sensible-solution, you opt for the no-solution.

Since Hamas won't simply agree not to bastardize common things into weapons or weapon parts, Israelis will suffer (rockets/IEDs) and Palestinians will also suffer (no nails, no ball bearings etc).

There comes a point bub, when you simply have to hold Hamas accountable for the damage inflicted by its poor and selfish decisions.

 

[Apocalypse]

So he is a prisoner of war, I don't see the problem. During the WWII there were hundreds of Japanese POW in Australia, for example, and they were not released until the end of the war.

Hamas is violating the international laws concerning POWs when it doesn't let anyone check up with the soldier, not even an international body such as the red cross.
But then again Hamas is a terrorist organization.

 

[donsutherland1]

Yes, it's a disaster in terms of PR.

But what about the morality of such restrictions? Is it ethical/moral to do that, especially when you know that there are many problems linked to malnutrition? Do you condemn it?

My view is that food and medicine should not be restricted. Such restrictions are bad for Israel's image. They can also lead to adverse outcomes.

Some of the adverse outcomes, though, are the result of Hamas' having confiscated humanitarian aid, gasoline, etc., from time to time. Weapons, weapon-components, and dual use materials should be restricted.

So these "3-5 major settlement blocs" are annexed Palestinian territory.

To date, no settlements or settlement blocs have been annexed.

And what about the impact on the lives of the Palestinians? Do you find it it normal that Israel prevents Palestinian farmers from harvesting?
West Bank: Israeli restrictions cut Palestinians off from their land
Harvesting olives in the West Bank: not as simple as it sounds

I’m well aware of some restrictions. Unfortunately, the security environment made such restrictions necessary. My guess is that a constructive bilateral diplomatic process between the Palestinian Authority and Israel could lead to a reduction of such restrictions. Indeed, Israel has reduced various restrictions over the past year.

Why do they keep on encouraging Israeli to settle in the illegal colonies instead of telling them to stay inside Israel? That would guarantee their security!

There is a temporary freeze on new construction in the West Bank. Whether the opportunity presented by the freeze will be seized by the Palestinians remains an open question. I do not know what ideas they have offered in the proximity talks, so I’m not in a position to comment on where things stand with respect to those discussions.

 

[bub]

Well then. There we have it. Rather than opt for the most-sensible-solution, you opt for the no-solution.

Since Hamas won't simply agree not to bastardize common things into weapons or weapon parts, Israelis will suffer (rockets/IEDs) and Palestinians will also suffer (no nails, no ball bearings etc).

There comes a point bub, when you simply have to hold Hamas accountable for the damage inflicted by its poor and selfish decisions.

You still have to explain the point of preventing some items to enter Gaza when the Hamas does not even need them to build its nail bombs.

Banning nails has serious consequences on Palestinians, who can't build anything where nails are needed, while it does not change anything on the Hamas capability to build nail bombs.

 

[donsutherland1]

You still have to explain the point of preventing some items to enter Gaza when the Hamas does not even need them to build its nail bombs.

Banning nails has serious consequences on Palestinians, who can't build anything where nails are needed, while it does not change anything on the Hamas capability to build nail bombs.

To address this issue, one would need international construction crews accompanied by robust armed security forces to ensure that all the nails were used for construction. One would also need a mechanism to ensure that none of the construction would benefit Hamas, Hamas' members, etc. Hamas has previously rejected any notion of international forces in the Gaza Strip. Hence, a framework that would preclude Hamas from benefiting is not feasible, so the nails have to be restricted.

 

[bub]

Hamas is violating the international laws concerning POWs when it doesn't let anyone check up with the soldier, not even an international body such as the red cross.

You have a point. Both the Hamas and Israel should respect international law regarding POWs

In a July 2003 report by the FIDH that was presented to the UN Human Rights Committee, it was noted that "Israel does not recognize Palestinian prisoners as having the status of prisoners of war."[5] In practice, it is the Israeli military that controls the conditions of detention and the administrative detention system allows for the imprisonment of an individual for up to 6 months, and this detention can be extended without the approval of a judge.[5] The FIDH report also notes that, "In the case of administrative detention, the necessary conditions for the execution of a fair trial are far from being achieved given that the lawyers do not even have access to the evidence

Palestinian prisoners in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bub]

To address this issue, one would need international construction crews accompanied by robust armed security forces to ensure that all the nails were used for construction.

I don't see the point since there are many substitutes to nails when you want to build a nail bomb. As I have already said, any piece of metal can be used. Banning nails therefore makes no sense since it has no effect on the Hamas capacity to build schrapnel bombs.

 

[Gardener]

The constantly and arbitrary changes to the list of banned goods only serves to make the blockade harder on Palestinians as they can never be sure that their goods will go through the Israeli occupation authorities.



How can ginger, chocolate and shoes be used for terrorism?

The answer is clear: they can't. Banning these goods is just a way the Israelis harass the Palestinians.



The only reason there is not an outright famine in Gaza is the basic humanitarian aid provided by the international community. The Israeli blockade makes it completely impossible for a viable economy to exist in Gaza and thus increases the security threat to Israel.

When unemployment is around 40 % and there are shortages of everything because of Israeli policies this generates a real and justified resentment towards Israel - in short the perfect conditions for recruiting people to militant groups. If there was a healthy economy in Gaza people would be less inclined to become militant; you are not very inclined to blow yourself up when you have to go to work the morning after.

Punishing ordinary Palestinians en masse is not only unjust and illegal; it also worsens the security of Israel.

Ah -- the old Jews are responsible for the plight of Palestinians ploy. Who was responsible before the Jews could be blamed when Gaza was also impoverished?

Heaven forbid a group that reproduces at astronomical rates who prioritizes the killing of others above all else should ever be held responsible for their own state of affairs.

When in doubt, though, blame Jews. It's a European tradition.

 

[Tashah]

I don't see the point since there are many substitutes to nails when you want to build a nail bomb. As I have already said, any piece of metal can be used. Banning nails therefore makes no sense since it has no effect on the Hamas capacity to build schrapnel bombs.

You do indeed miss the core point. The point being that if Hamas would cease being belligerent and join with Abbas and Israel in the peace process, none of these hoops would be necessary. The easiest solution is the peaceful solution. Unlike Abbas, Hamas refuses to walk down this road.

 

[ferrugem]

So he is a prisoner of war, I don't see the problem. During the WWII there were hundreds of Japanese POW in Australia, for example, and they were not released until the end of the war.

So why you are crying that 5-10K terrorists are in prison? they are POW's. The thing is, that we will free thousands for one single.. if they so care about their brothers in prison so what's the problem to make the exchange?
The asnwer is, th IDF will never do something as long as our soldier is there.. and Hamas knows that, they use it as a strategic tool.. and they know we would not kill any of their prisoners because we have the most appreciation to life.

 

[bub]

You do indeed miss the core point. The point being that if Hamas would cease being belligerent and join with Abbas and Israel in the peace process, none of these hoops would be necessary. The easiest solution is the peaceful solution. Unlike Abbas, Hamas refuses to walk down this road.

Don't change the subject, we were talking about the necessity to prevent nails from entering Gaza.

Regardless of your opinion on the Hamas, it is not necessary to ban macaronis, chocolate or even nails in Gaza, because these restrictions do not affect the Hamas capacity to harm Israel and therefore are totally unneeded.

That's why these restrictions are a collective punishment, and that's why they are condemned by the entire world.