Let’s Talk Predestination

[Loulit01]

Romans 8:8

8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


The scripture here is clear. Before we are saved we are dead in the spirit. Being of the flesh.

Considering such, its impossible for us to "choose" God as nothing we do in the flesh pleases him.

So there's no free will?

 

[VySky]

So there's no free will?

In what context?

 

[Loulit01]

In what context?

If God is omniscient, and already knows your fate because it's predestined, then there's know point in living life because all the decisions you attribute to free will are already known by God. Nothing you do will change your fate. So why bother?

 

[Logician Man]

Romans 8:8

8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


The scripture here is clear. Before we are saved we are dead in the spirit. Being of the flesh.

Considering such, its impossible for us to "choose" God as nothing we do in the flesh pleases him.

John 1:14 – Jesus Christ, the Word of God in the Flesh​

 

[VySky]

John 1:14 – Jesus Christ, the Word of God in the Flesh​

That is not what John 1:14 says

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Logician Man]

That is not what John 1:14 says

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

VySky said:
Romans 8:8

8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.



The scripture here is clear. Before we are saved we are dead in the spirit. Being of the flesh.

Considering such, its impossible for us to "choose" God as nothing we do in the flesh pleases him.

Is Jesus God in the flesh? ​

Jan 4, 2022 · Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.

 

[VySky]

VySky said:
Romans 8:8

8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.



The scripture here is clear. Before we are saved we are dead in the spirit. Being of the flesh.

Considering such, its impossible for us to "choose" God as nothing we do in the flesh pleases him.

Is Jesus God in the flesh?​

Jan 4, 2022 · Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.

What is the point you would like to make?

 

[Revelation]

If God is omniscient, and already knows your fate because it's predestined, then there's know point in living life because all the decisions you attribute to free will are already known by God.

Nothing you do will change your fate. So why bother?

this is where i differ with Calvinism, many of the Calvinistic teachings are very good except for this.

we are Commanded in the Bible to believe and repent, God offers salvation to all, not just a few.

true, God does know who will repent/believe, but he gives his Predestination blessing on those he 'foreknew'. meaning God knew you from Eternity past and who would follow God.

this is the Weak Link in Calvinism that the Arminians stress.

i just happen to have an excellent Seminary Quality book on this question, which leave no doubt in my mind that we are Commanded to repent/believe and God gives you the power to do that also. which is where the Calvinist is correct.

God does the saving, we can't save our selves; we just need to be willing when God's Spirit moves you to put your Faith in God.

sure, fine point............VERY important points. miss that and some people never seek God.


...and yes available everywhere........worth it at 10 times the price. this is the newest edition and digs deeper.

if you are Calvinist, you NEED this book to understand the theology from the ante-Nicene or early church writers.

guess what, Calvinism came out in 1500 AD, please learn what the Early Church preached in 100 AD, ,,,


blessings all.

.

 

[VySky]

this is where i differ with Calvinism, many of the Calvinistic teachings are very good except for this.

we are Commanded in the Bible to believe and repent, God offers salvation to all, not just a few.

true, God does know who will repent/believe, but he gives his Predestination blessing on those he 'foreknew'. meaning God knew you from Eternity past and who would follow God.

this is the Weak Link in Calvinism that the Arminians stress.

i just happen to have an excellent Seminary Quality book on this question, which leave no doubt in my mind that we are Commanded to repent/believe and God gives you the power to do that also. which is where the Calvinist is correct.

God does the saving, we can't save our selves; we just need to be willing when God's Spirit moves you to put your Faith in God.

sure, fine point............VERY important points. miss that and some people never seek God.


View attachment 67553660...and yes amazon does sell this book........worth it at 10 times the price. this is the newest edition and digs deeper.

if you are Calvinist, you NEED this book to understand the theology from the ante-Nicene or early church writers.

guess what, Calvinism came out in 1500 AD, please learn what the Early Church preached in 100 AD, ,,,


blessings all.

.

Robert Shank was a Southern Baptist preacher for 19 years and believed one can loose their salvation.

In 1960 he released the book you have presented. Consequently, Southern Baptist leaders suggested he join the Church of Christ which he did.

Regardless whether one is Calvinist or Arminian in the end really has no consequence.

If you're saved, you're saved.

How one finds their way to the right hand of God is all up to God.

 

[Revelation]

Robert Shank was a Southern Baptist preacher for 19 years and believed one can loose their salvation.

yes. he believed the Bible teaches holiness..............true, the bible does not teach living a loose moral life.

In 1960 he released the book you have presented. Consequently, Southern Baptist leaders suggested he join the Church of Christ which he did.

they kicked him out of his church and bible teacher college.

Regardless whether one is Calvinist or Arminian in the end really has no consequence.

too many fall away thinking they have a 'get out of hell free' card. i have seen it over and over.

If you're saved, you're saved.

yes you are, but you have free will to walk from the faith.

Jesus is the good shepherd and he goes after his sheep, which is the positive side.

How one finds their way to the right hand of God is all up to God.

well the difference is that Arminians believe the Offer of Grace is open to all men, but only a few will avail themselves of God's generous offer.

we do have Scripture on this

John 3:16 For God so loved the World

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4

this may matter to some people, although i attend both Calvinist and Arminian churches. the bigger issue is that some believe they cannot lose their Salvation and will then live a life of Sin believing that God is obligated to give them Heaven regardless.

this is where Life in the Son sets those types straight...


this verse was written by Paul TO THE CHURCH OF GALATIA...

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:21


christians will try to dodge the Issue of Galatians 5 in various ways, but they deceive many. shall not inherit means shall not inherit.

the common suggestion of 'turn or burn' is most apt in interpreting Galatians 5:21

blessings all, the Holy Bible has always taught holiness, read the cover of the Bible: 'Holy Bible' for starts.


.

 

[Revelation]

If God is omniscient, and already knows your fate because it's predestined, then there's know point in living life because all the decisions you attribute to free will are already known by God.

regardless, you MUST seek God. there is no Plan B

Nothing you do will change your fate. So why bother?

again, it bothers me that some one would conclude that we cannot seek God and find him

we can seek God and find him.

how?

Scripture COMMANDS us to seek God with all of our heart and promises you will find him.

how do you do anything in Life? you seek it; life is tough, to accomplish something we must overcome the Obstacles in our way.


Pilgrims Progress, John Bunyan describes the christian life through trial and tribulations. for him it was worth it in the end.

Promise.


.

 

[VySky]

too many fall away thinking they have a 'get out of hell free' card. i have seen it over and over.

Those who fall away were never truly saved. I think of the 4 soils here.

well the difference is that Arminians believe the Offer of Grace is open to all men, but only a few will avail themselves of God's generous offer.

It is open to all men. Matthew 22:14. "For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[Metanoia]

Romans 8:8

8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


The scripture here is clear. Before we are saved we are dead in the spirit. Being of the flesh.

Considering such, its impossible for us to "choose" God as nothing we do in the flesh pleases him.

iMO this is not true……I point to the Publican who said “have mercy on me”…..remember the centurion….and there are others….in regards to the flesh: when one steps out of his ego at that moment he is out of his flesh….flesh in the Bible is greatly associated with desire….ego is the birthplace of desire….

 

[Revelation]

Those who fall away were never truly saved. I think of the 4 soils here.

true. the Good Soil makes it in; the rest are rejected.

It is open to all men. Matthew 22:14. "For many are called, but few are chosen.”

true. the Chosen come in thru the Door (Jesus), the rest try to come in some other manner and fail.

my belief on this sides with Arminian interpretation, we are to repent/Confess sin on a daily basis (1John 1:9), which will result in forgiveness of sin that is confessed and also ALL sin a person may have committed that is unknown because of Ignorance.

christianity is an Active faith i believe, and not a 'one and done' drive by faith some try to practice.

i have been on both sides of the theological fence on this, Calvinist vs Arminian, and i feel the ante-Nicene writers and Arminius got it right.

.

 

[VySky]

my belief on this sides with Arminian interpretation, we are to repent/Confess sin on a daily basis (1John 1:9), which will result in forgiveness of sin that is confessed and also ALL sin a person may have committed that is unknown because of Ignorance.

Calvinist do the same

christianity is an Active faith i believe, and not a 'one and done' drive by faith some try to practice.

Agreed

i have been on both sides of the theological fence on this, Calvinist vs Arminian, and i feel the ante-Nicene writers and Arminius got it right.

Ok

 

[GIJane]

He didn't predestined people for eternal damnation.
He predestined CERTAIN people for salvation (for His purpose). Big difference.

While not really taking a side in this (I have one), I think the issue in this thread is some of you are not making your points clear.

On one hand some are saying God has chosen certain ones to be chosen to enter Heaven. On the other hand you're saying by following the Gospel you will be added to the list to be saved.

BUT the original wording of OP and some following is that ONLY the chosen will enter Heaven.

I think better wording would be:
While God has chosen certain people to enter Heaven, other people can ALSO enter Heaven if they follow the Gospels.

The caveat is: If God can foretell the future (pre-destination), then God, indeed, DOES know who is going to enter Heaven, therefor our choses in life mean little (free will or lack thereof ).

 

[VySky]

If God is omniscient

He is

and already knows your fate because it's predestined

fate? I assume you mean whether you are or are not one of his elect.

then there's know point in living life because all the decisions you attribute to free will are already known by God.

That really doesn't make any sense. Can you please explain?

Nothing you do will change your fate

Again, what fate? If you mean being saved we do indeed have to respond to God's call. If we are one of his elect we will. But he must call us first.

 

[Loulit01]

Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree. If there is a being who knows the entire future infallibly, then no human act is free.

Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Revelation]

Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree.

no, very wrong. you must seek God with all your heart and you WILL find him.

then you must walk the Narrow Way that Jesus describes.

If there is a being who knows the entire future infallibly, then no human act is free.

God is calling you to repentance, you are free to repent and believe or not.

i would advise you to repent daily, believe daily, seek God daily. blaming God doesn't cut it, pursue God with ALL your heart. you will find him, God promises you that in Jeremiah.

Here are some King James Version (KJV) Bible verses about seeking God with all your heart:

• Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thine heart and with all thy soul35.
• Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart128.
• Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him3.
• Psalms 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments3.
• Psalms 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart35.

Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Lou, you miss a few important details.

1 God calls all men to himself

2 You must come when God calls you

3 God knows who will obey his call

4 God predestines you based on your obedience to his saving Grace

5 We must walk the Narrow Way that Jesus prescribed in the Beatitudes and the New Testament

6 It is possible for christians to fall away from the faith and never come back; this is illustrated in Hebrews and James. in James our faith is demonstrated by our works. we are saved to follow Jesus, glorify him and do good works.

7 many don't take the Bible as a whole, but cherry pick some verses. i recommend studying ante-Nicene church writings and Arminian church doctrine to fill in your gaps of knowledge.


...Lou this book will help you with understanding the Christian life. it is not a one and done prayer, but a Life style.


blessings.


.

 

[Daisy]

Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree. If there is a being who knows the entire future infallibly, then no human act is free.

Foreknowledge and Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Well, there's your problem...you attempt to view things from philosophical eyes rather than through God's Word...

 

[Metanoia]

Well, there's your problem...you attempt to view things from philosophical eyes rather than through God's Word...

For this particular answer what scriptures can support omniscience and free will being compatible ?

 

[Daisy]

For this particular answer what scriptures can support omniscience and free will being compatible ?

Psalm 115:2 says, " Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever he pleases." That includes having complete control over all His powers...that means to say He doesn't/cannot control His powers would be a lie...

Factors to Recognize. To understand the matter of foreknowledge and foreordination as relating to God, certain factors necessarily must be recognized.

First, God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain is clearly stated in the Bible. Jehovah himself sets forth as proof of his Godship this ability to foreknow and foreordain events of salvation and deliverance, as well as acts of judgment and punishment, and then to bring such events to fulfillment. His chosen people are witnesses of these facts. (Isa 44:6-9; 48:3-8) Such divine foreknowledge and foreordination form the basis for all true prophecy. (Isa 42:9; Jer 50:45; Am 3:7, 8) God challenges the nations opposing his people to furnish proof of the godship they claim for their mighty ones and their idol-gods, calling on them to do so by foretelling similar acts of salvation or judgment and then bringing them to pass. Their impotence in this respect demonstrates their idols to be ‘mere wind and unreality.’—Isa 41:1-10, 21-29; 43:9-15; 45:20, 21.

A second factor to be considered is the free moral agency of God’s intelligent creatures. The Scriptures show that God extends to such creatures the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency (De 30:19, 20; Jos 24:15), thereby making them accountable for their acts. (Ge 2:16, 17; 3:11-19; Ro 14:10-12; Heb 4:13) They are thus not mere automatons, or robots. Man could not truly have been created in “God’s image” if he were not a free moral agent. (Ge 1:26, 27; see FREEDOM.) Logically, there should be no conflict between God’s foreknowledge (as well as his foreordaining) and the free moral agency of his intelligent creatures.

A third factor that must be considered, one sometimes overlooked, is that of God’s moral standards and qualities, including his justice, honesty, impartiality, love, mercy, and kindness. Any understanding of God’s use of the powers of foreknowledge and foreordination must therefore harmonize with not only some of these factors but with all of them. Clearly, whatever God foreknows must inevitably come to pass, so that God is able to call “things that are not as though they were.”—Ro 4:17.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001549

 

[Metanoia]

Daisy….thanks for sharing that. It reinforces much of what I accept as being true. Salient points for me: “complete control
over all his powers” and each mention of “the use of his powers”

I think of the gifts of the Holy Spirit….1 Corinthians 12…and also have respect for the Catholic teaching…..specifically “fear of the Lord”….I mention that because I believe that God rules by authority and not by power. We recognize and confess that God is real and all powerful(this is the fear part) and, thus, we accept being under his authority.

The verse that sticks in my mind ? “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble”….having a big ego is anything but humble….and is a danger for those that seek God…remember the Pharisee and the Publican…..the Pharisee touting how religious he was. And grace, of course, is synonymous with gifts. There can be no greater gift than the gift of the Holy Spiriit…..both a gift and a burden,,,,”to him who is given much, much is expected”

Thanks again for your post……and never be surprised if I challenge you…

 

[Daisy]

Daisy….thanks for sharing that. It reinforces much of what I accept as being true. Salient points for me: “complete control
over all his powers” and each mention of “the use of his powers”

You're welcome...

I believe that God rules by authority and not by power

True, if you think about it, Satan never, ever challenged God's power because he knows God is Almighty/all powerful...what he did challenge was God's authority/right to rule mankind...he deceived Eve into thinking God was withholding something good from them and then he flat out lied to her by telling her “You certainly will not die"...

never be surprised if I challenge you…

As long as it's a sensible/reasonable challenge...lol...not some off the wall stuff people throw around on here, I'll accept the challenge...

 

[Cordelier]

Well, there's your problem...you attempt to view things from philosophical eyes rather than through God's Word...

Which is closer to "God's Word", though? The words in a book written thousands of years ago and translated and re-translated numerous times? Or the reality of the universe He created?

"The Lord has given us eyes to see with and ears to listen with." -- Proverbs 20:12