You ask and then you quote God's Word...
-
This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
Let’s Talk Predestination
- Thread starter VySky
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2017
- Messages
- 15,543
- Reaction score
- 7,233
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Liberal
You ask and then you quote God's Word...
I look at this way... you're the pilot of your own airplane. You've got a flight manual, which you should be familiar with. But reading the flight manual isn't enough - sure, it gives you a set of guidelines to start out with, but you need to put in the actual flight hours - real world experience - before you're truly an expert on the airplane. The Bible - any book - is just a starting point. You should never think of it as a be-all and and an end-all. Sure, it may be God's word - but so is everything else around you. God created it all.
Last edited:
I disagree...the Bible answers many questions about life in this world that cannot be found anywhere else...it also gives guidance to maneuver through this world that cannot be found anywhere else...the Bible repeatedly links Jehovah and knowledge, calling Him “a God of knowledge” and describing Him as “perfect in knowledge”...obtaining such knowledge that only He offers gives peace of mind and confidence in the future that can be obtained nowhere else...
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2017
- Messages
- 15,543
- Reaction score
- 7,233
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Liberal
I'd say the flight manual gives a lot of information about the airplane that you won't find anywhere else as well, but it's not as if a novice can read it and then suddenly be able to fly the airplane. You need a lot more information than is contained in the book.
Sure, God may be all-knowing and all-wise, but is all of God's wisdom contained in the Bible? I don't deny that there is much wisdom in the Bible, just as there is in any sacred text that has survived the test of time. But if you put the sum of the wisdom in the Bible and combine it with the sum of the wisdom found in every other text ever written, can it ever possibly come close to approaching God's wisdom? I say if you want to truly get a glimpse - just a glimpse - of the wisdom of God, look around you at the Universe He has created. Science is the fruit of our intelligence. Religion is the fruit of our wisdom. In the final analysis, they are both seeking the same truth, just in different ways.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
If I may add, earthly wisdom is lacking in comparison to God's wisdom. We lack the ability to be on the same level because we are relying on our own understanding which scripture is clear we should not do.
Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2017
- Messages
- 15,543
- Reaction score
- 7,233
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Liberal
Read a little further down Proverbs 3 to verses 19-20:
"By wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations,
by understanding he set the heavens in place;
by his knowledge the watery depths were divided,
and the clouds let drop the dew."
All I am saying is that God's wisdom extends far beyond the bounds of a Book. If you want to understand God, you need to understand His creation.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2016
- Messages
- 1,742
- Reaction score
- 695
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
The trouble is the scriptures are not understood. The people complained to Jesus and asked why he spoke in parables and he said it was not given to them to understand. In the main forum I presented another way to understand the parable of the workers in the vineyard…….hahaha….not a single response. The literal is the only thing that most Christians can comprehend……it points to an absence of the Spirit which was promised to lead us into all understanding…..it is an example of the old adage….”you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink’…..
The problem is, most people wanna give their interpretation of scripture instead of relying on allowing scripture to interpret itself...the only way to get an accurate interpretation is to compare scripture with other scriptures...that method goes all the way back to Jesus Christ...he used a number of scriptures to clarify the true meaning of a text...The trouble is the scriptures are not understood. The people complained to Jesus and asked why he spoke in parables and he said it was not given to them to understand. In the main forum I presented another way to understand the parable of the workers in the vineyard…….hahaha….not a single response. The literal is the only thing that most Christians can comprehend……it points to an absence of the Spirit which was promised to lead us into all understanding…..it is an example of the old adage….”you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink’…..
As an example, when the Pharisees criticized his disciples for plucking heads of grain on the Sabbath, Jesus demonstrated from the account recorded at 1 Samuel 21:6 of how the Sabbath law should be applied...the religious leaders of that time were familiar with the account, in which David and his men ate the loaves of presentation. Jesus then referred to the part of the Law that said that only the Aaronic priests were to eat the showbread...Exodus 29:32,33 and Leviticus 24:9...yet, David was told to go ahead and eat the loaves....Jesus ended his argument by quoting from the book of Hosea...“If you had understood what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless ones"...Matthew 12:1-8...thus Jesus was allowing scripture to interpret itself by comparing a scripture with other scriptures to reach the accurate understanding of that law...
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
Agreed
What does it mean to lean not on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)?
What does it mean to lean not on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean to lean not on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)? Why do we struggle with relying on our own understanding of things?
www.gotquestions.org
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
Not all scriptures. And for many of the parables Jesus teaches what they mean.
Jesus said he spoke in parables to them to hide the truth from those who had hardened hearts.
Matthew 13:10-16
The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.the only way to get an accurate interpretation is to compare scripture with other scriptures...that method goes all the way back to Jesus Christ...he used a number of scriptures to clarify the true meaning of a text...
One can not be a saved Christian if they lack the Holy Spirit.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2016
- Messages
- 1,742
- Reaction score
- 695
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
You must remember that Jesus was speaking prior to His glorification. The Spirit had not yet been made accessible to all people. This comparing of scripture is very helpful to those who not have the Spirit even to this day when many believers do not have the Spirit and it is what most churches must utilize. But we are told that the Spirit leads into all truth….in that sense it trumps the scripture. Among other things the scripture is vulnerable to the errors of translation. Furthermore the scripture is dependent on literacy. People must have access to it and be able to read. God cannot ignore any of his children.
The ability to read and write is a component of acquiring wisdom….and we are told that the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. The Spirit bypasses all of this and is made available to all mankind. IMO the churches are guilty of this: They know what the Scripture says but give no assistance to people to acquire the Spirit. In this sense they are controlling people by making them think that the Church and the Bible are the only path to God…..
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2016
- Messages
- 1,742
- Reaction score
- 695
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Ultimately it means to seek the Spirit….not to accept someone else’s understanding as I presented in my previous post….
Jesus was already baptized by that time, having received God's holy spirit...
"After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” Matthew 3:16,17
And he always gave credit of what he taught to Jehovah God, the Perfect Teacher...
"Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2016
- Messages
- 1,742
- Reaction score
- 695
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
No one is surprised by that…..God’s spirit was on Jesus since creation…and for those that do not accept that certainly since His earthly conception….yoy know the verses that support that. Baptism is no guarantee of having the Spirit otherwise anyone that is baptized with the Spirit and having been led into all truth would have no need of religion. What we are talking about is the need for all people outside of Jesus needing the Spirit……
Never said it was but for Jesus, we know it was according to scripture...
Absolutely we do and with God's spirit, we willingly follow Jesus' lead...
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
There are plenty of people who have been baptized that are not saved because they lack the Holy Spirit received at salvation.
Studying God's word and joining in fellowship to worship him doesn't end at Baptism.
We receive the Holy Spirit when we respond to God's call and accept and acknowledge in our hearts and mouths that we are sinners, and to repent asking for forgiveness. And to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead as he said he would.
Baptism is an act of obedience publicly demonstrating our pronounced faith.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
===================
Notice the text "those whom he called he also justified"
Not some he called, but all those he called. Those who he foreknew and predestined. It doesn't read 'some he called' because he knew some would say no.
Not alll who are outwardly called are justiffied. Matthew 7:22 reads
==========================
Matthew 7:22-23
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
===========================
God called the world into existene, he didn't invite it. When Jesus called Lazarus out of the tomb it was not an external call, it was a sovereign call.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
===================
Notice the text "those whom he called he also justified"
Not some he called, but all those he called. Those who he foreknew and predestined. It doesn't read 'some he called' because he knew some would say no.
Not alll who are outwardly called are justiffied. Matthew 7:22 reads
==========================
Matthew 7:22-23
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
===========================
God called the world into existene, he didn't invite it. When Jesus called Lazarus out of the tomb it was not an external call, it was a sovereign call.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2013
- Messages
- 11,743
- Reaction score
- 2,406
- Location
- New Jersey
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Very Conservative
GOD predestined to save the lost. HE foreknew our choices before we chose them. In addition, GOD predestined to allow everything (both good & bad) to occur, in order for each of us to come into existence. Murder, rape, adultery, fornication, war, pestilence, etc., all resulted in sinners being born at sometime during our past, so that the right mixture of DNA ,as it were, would happen for each of us to come to be as we now exist. If Adam and Eve never sinned, the likes of us would NEVER have been born. So GOD allowed it all to happen so that you and I would come to be........................................................
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
Scripture points to God's soverinty in his election of those whom he shall have mercy, And he hardens those he will not.
And it matters not what our human will is.
Romans 9:15-16
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.
Take a look at the story of Jacob and Esau. Before these boys were even born. Before they could have done good or evil God for his own purpose elected/chose Jacob over Esau. They had no part in the process from a human will perspective.
Their election had nothing to do with what the boys might do but on what God does. God chose Jacob based on his purpose.
Grace if a gift from God. Gifts are not earned or asked for, they are given.
Romans 9:13
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Scripture of Galatians tells us of the 'seed' not 'seed(s)'
Galations 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
And it matters not what our human will is.
Romans 9:15-16
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.
Take a look at the story of Jacob and Esau. Before these boys were even born. Before they could have done good or evil God for his own purpose elected/chose Jacob over Esau. They had no part in the process from a human will perspective.
Their election had nothing to do with what the boys might do but on what God does. God chose Jacob based on his purpose.
Grace if a gift from God. Gifts are not earned or asked for, they are given.
Romans 9:13
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Scripture of Galatians tells us of the 'seed' not 'seed(s)'
Galations 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2013
- Messages
- 11,743
- Reaction score
- 2,406
- Location
- New Jersey
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Very Conservative
GOD foreknows how people will respond to HIS grace and salvation. And HE in fact allows people to go to hell in order to save others HE knows will respond favorably.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
His grace is offered to his elect and he knows how they will respond. The prescient view incorrectly puts empahasis on human response instead of Gods Sovereignty and Grace.
The parabel of the 4 soils is a prime example of how only 25% of those who thought they were saved actually were saved. Those 25% are God's elect.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2019
- Messages
- 48,458
- Reaction score
- 19,292
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
1 Kings 19:18
"Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
These 7,000 men had no say in Gods election of them for his purpose. He didn't ask them. He didn't wait for them to come to him. They had no say in the matter.
He chose them for his good will and purpose because he is the sovereign God!
"Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
These 7,000 men had no say in Gods election of them for his purpose. He didn't ask them. He didn't wait for them to come to him. They had no say in the matter.
He chose them for his good will and purpose because he is the sovereign God!