Let’s Talk Predestination

[Metanoia]

Seems to me you are not a Christian, one way or the other. I feel that my personal view doesn't go against scripture, and your opinion is being applied by you as a deterrent to faith in CHRIST.

Of course you misread me…..there are different levels to understanding……consider the failure to understand parables that the Bible speaks of…..even the disciples found them difficult to understand….

 

[LittleNipper]

And religion by definition is reconnecting with God….predestination would make religion pointless….

Religion is best described as man reaching up to GOD. Christianity is GOD reaching down to man. Religions invented by Man are pointless.

 

[Metanoia]

Seems to me you are not a Christian, one way or the other. I feel that my personal view doesn't go against scripture, and your opinion is being applied by you as a deterrent to faith in CHRIST.

Expand your understanding of being a Christian and realize that Christ is the Gospei…is the Good News….with that you can overcome any idea that your fate is predetermined…..good luck…..

 

[VySky]

Makes no sense at all…….if all is predestined and if God had foreknowledge of all things we are simply waiting for death and then discovering our sentence…..our actions and beliefs are meaningless…I would guess that people who believe in it are suffering from inflated egos that lead them to believe that they belong to the fortunate few….

If one is truly saved they will inherently yield fruit. Christians are not expected to sit back on cruise control. If one is truly consumed with the Holy Spirit it’s impossible not do the work that glorifies God.

 

[Metanoia]

Religions invented by Man are pointless.

Whether we like it or not most religions come by inspiration and not invention…..if one believes in one God then God had some hand in inspiring all religions….to believe otherwise would be to believe in multiple creator gods….unfortunately Christians want to believe that they are the only people that God loves….God is bigger than we think….

 

[Metanoia]

If one is truly saved they will inherently yield fruit. Christians are not expected to sit back on cruise control. If one is truly consumed with the Holy Spirit it’s impossible not do the work that glorifies God.

Then you reject predestination ?

 

[VySky]

For those that believe in predestination is not repentance meaningless ?

No. God's elect must repent and acknowledge Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins and rose from the dead as he said he would.

 

[VySky]

Yes, it makes life in general meaningless...

No it doesn't.

 

[VySky]

Then you reject predestination ?

As a Calvinist, no I do not.

 

[VySky]

consider the failure to understand parables that the Bible speaks of…..even the disciples found them difficult to understand….

Do you know what Jesus said about why he spoke in parables?

 

[Metanoia]

Manifest destiny and predetermination seem, in many ways, to be birds of a feather…..

 

[Metanoia]

As a Calvinist, no I do not.

Feel free to defend or explain it…..btw Calvinist does sound like a man made religion….

 

[iliveonramen]

I have zero clue how pre-destination would align with free will.

I think it's bad theology and the fact it's become such a common belief in America shows how far gone American based Christianity is.

 

[Revelation]

As a Calvinist, no I do not.

Then you reject predestination ?

Met, the issue is whether one would hold to the Calvinist interpretation of predestination.

i see problems with how it is taught, so i go with an Arminian view of predestination which better explains Man's and God's work in Salvation.

when God predestines you, he does it with a view of how you will accept the Gospel Truth during your life. in other words, God does not force you to believe.

Calvinism says that man has no power to choose and that God can only empower man to desire Salvation.

i don't see this as a Loving way for God to act and believe God offers salvation to all men as the Bible plainly states. call it 'free will' of man or whatever Label you have handy today.

the Calvinists are one step ahead of the baptists and others in that they insist that the Christian WILL persevere to the end and act in a christian way of life. Arminians believe almost the same thing, that we must walk with God thru our whole life and not leave the faith. the difference is that Arminians believe we can lose our salvation if we don't walk holy in this life, while the Calvinists believe that a true Christian can never lose Salvation.

Met, it is an interesting debate and i think Vy understands his side of Calvinism with more expertise than i do. i feel that Calvinism falls short in explaining important features we find in Arminian theology.

also, the Early church taught a brand of Arminian type of theology, where Calvinism only arrived about 1500 AD when Calvin started teaching. that should be a Red Flag, why did God wait so long for Calvin to arrive if that was the true Gospel truth? kinda another reason i don't buy into Calvinism, pure Logic tells me that God would have put Calvinistic theology into the Early church if it was true.


blessings all....and yes i know this is controversial, but a christian should be able to articulate both sides of the issue and clearly state what they think to be true.

the fact is, most christians have no clue concerning both sides of the issue. fatal error i believe because theology isn't taught much anymore or just partially taught.

a good book: Life in the Son, by Shank clearly illustrates the issue from Amazon/other.


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[Revelation]

Feel free to defend or explain it…..btw Calvinist does sound like a man made religion….

i feel the same. it came from John Calvin in the 1500's.

go back to Early Church history, during the Ante-Nicene church history from about 100 to 325 AD and before the RC mixed in there error.

you will not find Calvinist theology in the Early Church writings: a Red Flag.

 

[Revelation]

I have zero clue how pre-destination would align with free will.

it doesn't.

God gives you Free will; but God knows what your Free will is going to choose.

if you will choose Faith in God, then he predestines you. kind of a simple way to look at it.

I think it's bad theology and the fact it's become such a common belief in America shows how far gone American based Christianity is.

Calvinism isn't an american theology, it was imported here in the Reformed and Presbyterian churches. the Methodist churches did not feature this theology but were Arminian originally.

Methodism has largely gone liberal theology, but there are still some Conservative Methodists left. Pentecostals are largely Arminian to this day as are Trinitarian Apostolics and others.

shows how far gone American based Christianity is.

American christianity of all flavors is in a steep decline in most churches. i believe this is to be expected in the Last days as God has prophesied in the Bible. many will just become cold to the faith and lose their Salvation i believe.

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[Metanoia]

Is it only a matter of time until the Trump Evangelical Church opens its doors ?

 

[VySky]

The core principles of Calvinism are often misunderstood.

A short review of the 5 points

Key Doctrines of Calvinism​

Understanding what is Calvinism involves exploring its core doctrines, which include:

• TULIP: An acronym summarizing the five points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.
• Total Depravity: This means humanity is completely fallen and unable to achieve salvation without divine intervention.
• Unconditional Election: Calvinists believe God chooses certain individuals for salvation without any conditions based on merit.
• Limited Atonement: This doctrine asserts that Christ’s death secured salvation solely for the elect.
• Irresistible Grace: When God calls his elect to salvation, they cannot resist His grace.
• Perseverance of the Saints: Those whom God has elected will persevere in faith and will not ultimately fall away.

What is Calvinism: 5 Key Beliefs You Should Know -

Calvinism is a major branch of Protestant theology that emerged during the Reformation in the 16th century. Developed from the teachings of John Calvin, it

oracioncristiana.org

 

[Revelation]

The core principles of Calvinism are often misunderstood.

they may be misunderstood, but Theology is hardly a subject much stressed in the churches i frequent; and yes i attend both Calvinist and Arminian congregations.

A short review of the 5 points

Key Doctrines of Calvinism​

Understanding what is Calvinism involves exploring its core doctrines, which include:

• TULIP: An acronym summarizing the five points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.
• Total Depravity: This means humanity is completely fallen and unable to achieve salvation without divine intervention.
• Unconditional Election: Calvinists believe God chooses certain individuals for salvation without any conditions based on merit.
• Limited Atonement: This doctrine asserts that Christ’s death secured salvation solely for the elect.
• Irresistible Grace: When God calls his elect to salvation, they cannot resist His grace.
• Perseverance of the Saints: Those whom God has elected will persevere in faith and will not ultimately fall away.

What is Calvinism: 5 Key Beliefs You Should Know -

Calvinism is a major branch of Protestant theology that emerged during the Reformation in the 16th century. Developed from the teachings of John Calvin, it

oracioncristiana.org

Arminian theology has 5 key doctrines below...


The five key points of Arminian theology, formalized in the Remonstrance of 1610 by followers of Jacobus Arminius, emphasize human free will and God’s universal grace. These points are often contrasted with Calvinism’s TULIP framework:

1. Free Will (or Human Ability)
   Humanity, though impacted by sin, retains the ability to respond to God’s grace through prevenient grace, which enables genuine free choice in salvation. Some sources describe this as "partial depravity," though many Arminians reject this term, instead emphasizing total depravity mitigated by prevenient grace.

• Conditional Election
  God’s choice to save individuals is based on His foreknowledge of their faith response, rather than an unconditional decree. Election is thus conditional upon human acceptance of grace.
• Unlimited Atonement
  Christ’s sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all humanity, not merely a predestined elect. This universal scope ensures salvation is genuinely available to everyone.
• Resistible Grace
  God’s grace, though initiating and enabling salvation, can be resisted or rejected by individuals. This contrasts with Calvinism’s view of irresistible grace.
• Possibility of Apostasy (Falling from Grace)
  Believers may lose salvation through persistent unbelief or willful rejection of faith. Some Arminians nuance this by emphasizing restoration is possible through repentance

These points collectively stress God’s universal love, human responsibility, and the cooperative nature of salvation. The Synod of Dort (1618–1619) rejected these views, solidifying Calvinism’s dominance in Reformed circles, but Arminian theology remains influential in Methodist, Wesleyan, and other traditions.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/5-key-points-of-arminian-theol-TmUQZdbERKGYBAxW2rOo8w

if i get some time or whoever, it would be good to Contrast the difference between these two Doctrines.


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[Revelation]

Is it only a matter of time until the Trump Evangelical Church opens its doors ?

Met, more important at the moment is Theology in this thread.

do you see the differences in what Vy posted and what i have posted?

if you do, what do you see as a better explanation of the Bible Doctrines of Salvation, Perseverance in the faith and Predestination?


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[Revelation]

The core principles of Calvinism are often misunderstood.

what is important to understand is that both sides work together to advance the Kingdom of God. nobody challenges me on my Theology or these principles at the churches i frequent.

and i believe people are Christian regardless of whether they hold to Calvinism or Arminainism.

i was raised baptist, they tend to hold a mixture of both Doctrines, which i feel is less than satisfactory. Calvinist and Arminians are correct in that they insist that a person must Persevere in the Faith of Jesus Christ. i don't compromise on that, some baptists tend to say that you can fall away from the faith not coming back, living a sinful life and God will save you in the end. that is dangerous to both Calvinists and Arminians who reject that kind of compromised faith. all baptists don't believe that way, but many do; that is why i rejected the baptist version of mixed doctrines.


this is a Calvinist web site that contrasts both Doctrines and may be worth posting here: https://www.fivesolas.com/cal_arm.htm

A short review of the 5 points

Key Doctrines of Calvinism​

Understanding what is Calvinism involves exploring its core doctrines, which include:

• TULIP: An acronym summarizing the five points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

• Total Depravity: This means humanity is completely fallen and unable to achieve salvation without divine intervention.

man is unable to achieve Salvation, but man must of his own free will be open to the Call of God when he realizes his own Depravity. God does not force a man to repent. he does this of this own Free Will.

• Unconditional Election: Calvinists believe God chooses certain individuals for salvation without any conditions based on merit.

i believe God chooses us based on his Omniscience; for some unknown reason, some choose to follow God and others reject God of their own free will.

• Limited Atonement: This doctrine asserts that Christ’s death secured salvation solely for the elect.

Christ's death i believe secured salvation for the whole world, but is efficacious only to those who believe.

• Irresistible Grace: When God calls his elect to salvation, they cannot resist His grace.

God does call his elect to salvation as well as all men and we certainly can resist God when he calls us. however the Elect will eventually answer the call and believe in their time.

• Perseverance of the Saints: Those whom God has elected will persevere in faith and will not ultimately fall away.

Vy, very important point. yes we MUST persevere in the faith and the elect will do so, however some will choose to fall away of their own free will and will be lost.

What is Calvinism: 5 Key Beliefs You Should Know -

Calvinism is a major branch of Protestant theology that emerged during the Reformation in the 16th century. Developed from the teachings of John Calvin, it

oracioncristiana.org

 

[Metanoia]

Met, more important at the moment is Theology in this thread.

do you see the differences in what Vy posted and what i have posted?

if you do, what do you see as a better explanation of the Bible Doctrines of Salvation, Perseverance in the faith and Predestination?


.

Yes I do…..for obvious reasons. But to elaborate on them is not productive IMO. I belonged to a church for most of my life my and it was formative and productive. Now I simply attend and participate in a church. I am not in agreement with a number of their beliefs but I do not challenge them . They are well intentioned people with genuine goodness…….there is no point In questioning their entrenched beliefs. I believe that the pursuit of God is an individual journey and we must do it on our own……basically believing that there are no denominations in the afterlife. Contrary to many I believe in free will…..so my reading list would be questioned by various Christians. And I have traveled and have dear acquaintances with people of other religions in whom I find no guile. Therefore I totally reject any idea that God restricts His love to Christians. The same goes for nations…..there are good people everywhere. The Jews were God’s chosen people but they are still looking for a messiah…..they were given Christ instead and their entrenched beliefs were a road block to accepting him….even though they were taught that pride goes before a fall.

 

[LittleNipper]

Whether we like it or not most religions come by inspiration and not invention…..if one believes in one God then God had some hand in inspiring all religions….to believe otherwise would be to believe in multiple creator gods….unfortunately Christians want to believe that they are the only people that God loves….God is bigger than we think….

One belief may influence some other religion or the founding of another, but Satan (the author of confusion) can and does entice the formation of various belief systems because he hates both man and GOD. GOD loves everyone, HE just doesn't lead everyone in paths of righteousness, because they choose not to. GOD is triune and isn't defined by anything we can imagine. And that would indeed make HIM fully unexplainable, though HE does provide glimpses of HIS power. And an example of HIS LOVE was/is JESUS CHRIST. And anyone who doesn't believe this is simply out of the loop.

 

[ashurbanipal]

I really wish people would actually read The Institutes of the Christian Religion. I don't have a copy any more so I can't go look up exact quotes, but, like with Adam Smith's followers after he published the Wealth of Nations, it seems that Calvin's followers read only half of what he wrote.

In the section on predestination, he gives all the standard reasons to believe that predestination is correct--God is omniscient and omnipotent, therefore God knows even before creating your soul whether you're going to heaven or hell, so it seems predestination is correct, and so on. But then, after that section, he gives all the arguments against believing in predestination, such as that a just, good, and loving God would never do something so horrific as to create a soul that had no choice in its ultimate destiny. He concludes that both sets of arguments are equally convincing, and that Christians must therefore think of this as a great mystery beyond our ability to understand--the entire section is really a prohibition against engaging in certain kinds of thinking...which his followers went right ahead and did anyway.

 

[Metanoia]

One belief may influence some other religion or the founding of another, but Satan (the author of confusion) can and does entice the formation of various belief systems because he hates both man and GOD.

IMO confusion is manmade……the first big mistake we make is to personify Satan….we want to envisage him as a being outside of ourselves…..Satan becomes a fall guy that can lead us to think that “the devil made me do it”……the real problem is within and the understandable name for it is the ego. That is what separates us from God. This same principle applies to God also….by personifying God we view Him as an entity totally separate from us yet we quote verses that speak of “the kingdom within”, “being one with God”, “ it is no longer I that speak but Christ within me” etc. We allow the material and the physical to become our reality…..and the spiritual, in most cases, remains only as a theoretical possibility. God is Spirit….one must become spiritual….anyone that thinks that all theologians are spiritual is sadly mistaken….