Let’s Talk Predestination

[NotreDame]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?
—-


The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is predestination / predetermination? Is predestination biblical? What does predestined mean? Does God predestine who will be saved?

www.gotquestions.org

No, you’ve misread Scripture. God determined, “beforehand” that salvation will be extended, how salvation will manifest, and those who freely choose that salvation will be transformed to a likeness of Jesus.

 

[craig]

No, you’ve misread Scripture. God determined, “beforehand” that salvation will be extended, how salvation will manifest, and those who freely choose that salvation will be transformed to a likeness of Jesus.

Jesus on the cross?

 

[NotreDame]

Jesus on the cross?

What about it

 

[Fishking]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?
—-


The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is predestination / predetermination? Is predestination biblical? What does predestined mean? Does God predestine who will be saved?

www.gotquestions.org

They way I've always understood predestination was that there are certain individuals that were/are predestined for a certain thing (e.g. John the Baptist).

 

[craig]

What about it

Jesus on the cross does not seem to be a good outcome for anyone.

 

[NotreDame]

Jesus on the cross does not seem to be a good outcome for anyone.

It doesn’t? How so?

 

[craig]

It doesn’t? How so?

Because everyone who did it is dead.

 

[craig]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?
—-


The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is predestination / predetermination? Is predestination biblical? What does predestined mean? Does God predestine who will be saved?

www.gotquestions.org

Everyone knows that any identical chemistry experiment will always have the same result. Why would the the big bang have any ending different then what was determined by its beginning?

 

[VySky]

No, you’ve misread Scripture. God determined, “beforehand” that salvation will be extended, how salvation will manifest, and those who freely choose that salvation will be transformed to a likeness of Jesus.

Well. Mathew 22:14

““For many are called, but few are chosen.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


Many people hear the call of God coming through His revelation of Himself through creation, the conscience, and the preaching of the Word. But only the “few” will respond because they are the ones who are truly hearing. Jesus said many times, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8, 14:35). The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding. Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the “few” who have ears to hear. The “many” hear, but there is no interest or there is outright antagonism toward God. Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own. God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).

What does “Many are called but few are chosen” in Matthew 22:14 mean? | GotQuestions.org

What does “Many are called but few are chosen” in Matthew 22:16 mean? Why does God not chose all those whom He calls?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[NotreDame]

Because everyone who did it is dead.

And how is such a comment is germane to the subject matter of predestination?

 

[Fishking]

It amazes me how religion can make people jump through illogical hoops.

It amazes me how the irreligious belief in completely self contradicting science and then feel like they are on the high ground of logic.

 

[NotreDame]

Well. Mathew 22:14

““For many are called, but few are chosen.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


Many people hear the call of God coming through His revelation of Himself through creation, the conscience, and the preaching of the Word. But only the “few” will respond because they are the ones who are truly hearing. Jesus said many times, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15; Mark 4:9; Luke 8:8, 14:35). The point is that everyone has ears, but only a few are listening and responding. Not everyone who hears the gospel receives it but only the “few” who have ears to hear. The “many” hear, but there is no interest or there is outright antagonism toward God. Many are called or invited into the kingdom, but none are able to come on their own. God must draw the hearts of those who come; otherwise they will not (John 6:44).

What does “Many are called but few are chosen” in Matthew 22:14 mean? | GotQuestions.org

What does “Many are called but few are chosen” in Matthew 22:16 mean? Why does God not chose all those whom He calls?

www.gotquestions.org

Yeah, so what? God calling doesn’t make those called robots who then must follow the calling like mesmerized rats uncontrollably dancing Pied Piper’s song and uncontrollably following the Pied Piper to their destination. Those called freely choose to follow.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So? This verse is announcing a necessary condition to come to Jesus. God must “draw” a person to Jesus for the person to come to Jesus. The verse doesn’t announce a sufficient condition to come to Jesus. Hence, a logical inference from this verse is more than a “drawing” is to occur for someone to come to Jesus, such as perhaps the person “drawn” must freely choose to follow.

The word “unless” announced a necessary condition for something to occur and not a sufficient condition for something to occur.

The verse doesn’t state those who are drawn will come to Jesus.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

It amazes me how the irreligious belief in completely self contradicting science and then feel like they are on the high ground of logic.

Isn't the point of science to "contradict" and challenge itself, in order to advance it? Aren't competing and contradicting scientific viewpoints a sign of healthy science?

 

[Fishking]

Isn't the point of science to "contradict" and challenge itself, in order to advance it? Aren't competing and contradicting scientific viewpoints a sign of healthy science?

The point of science may be to always be skeptical and question prevailing thought but it is not to hold contradictory beliefs in congruence.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The point of science may be to always be skeptical and question prevailing thought but it is not to hold contradictory beliefs in congruence.

I'm coming up short. Can you give me an example of what you mean?

 

[Fishking]

I'm coming up short. Can you give me an example of what you mean?

The fact that spontaneous generation (abiogenesis) of life is a proven scientifically false yet the irreligious believe it happened.

 

[craig]

The fact that spontaneous generation (abiogenesis) of life is a proven scientifically false yet the irreligious believe it happened.

Spontaneous generation and abiogenesis are two different things.

Both abiogenesis and spontaneous generation propose that life can originate from non-living matter, but the details of the two are completely different. While abiogenesis is a valid theory that has not been disproven, spontaneous generation is an outdated belief that has been shown to be incorrect.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The fact that spontaneous generation (abiogenesis) of life is a proven scientifically false yet the irreligious believe it happened.

Eh? It hasn't been proven false. There just isn't conclusive evidence that it's true. Those aren't the same thing.

 

[Fishking]

Spontaneous generation and abiogenesis are two different things.

Both abiogenesis and spontaneous generation propose that life can originate from non-living matter, but the details of the two are completely different. While abiogenesis is a valid theory that has not been disproven, spontaneous generation is an outdated belief that has been shown to be incorrect.

They are not different things in their essence and in their terminology. This a distinction in that spontaneous generation of life was previously used to say things like, "Flies were created by rotting meat" and such, but that distinction has become smaller and smaller as technology advanced and has shown that even the most basic forms of life are still very complicated.

 

[Fishking]

Eh? It hasn't been proven false. There just isn't conclusive evidence that it's true. Those aren't the same thing.

But you're supposed to be irreligious, but you're employing faith, which is a contradiction. Your statement is no different than "God has not been proven false."

 

[bomberfox]

It's possibly the most sadistic and immoral theistic concept anyone has ever dreamt up. Someone that believes that believes that god created billions of people for the explicit and intentional purpose of eternal damnnation and torture.

There's nothing that person can do to change his hellish destiny, so free will, morality, and everything else become meaningless. This is really the scummiest gutter of theology and I pity and look down on anyone that actually believes that.

Yep. Calvinism is very immoral.

 

[bomberfox]

You don’t know that though. Perhaps God just started the world and let it randomize without His interference.

Since He is God He can do anything including that. This question is very similar to the question of “can God make a rock He can’t move?”

So the answer in to both questions is irrelevant because they are scenarios that God would never put Himself in.

Because you can’t figure out an answer doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

Its relevant to whether god is all powerful. His decisions are irrelevant to what he is capable of.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

But predestination is not the only way to salvationph

Not according to those who preach predestination like the Jehovah Witnesses and their 144,000. There are some aspects of his post that are correct. Jeremiah was called to be a prophet before he was in the belly of his mother. But, this is not predestination. This is foreordination. As were all the prophets and apostles ancient and modern. I believe we come from a more exalted place where Father in Heaven resides. We all were called and many ordained to become leaders in various time periods on earth. But, the difference with foreordination is we still have a choice to choose when called. With predestination, we don't have a choice. It was going to happen no matter what. Jonah and the Whale is an example of a man choosing not to preach while God had to convince him to preach. Johan always had the choice to follow what God called and ordained him to do.

 

[VySky]

Yep. Calvinism is very immoral.

 

[craig]

They are not different things in their essence and in their terminology. This a distinction in that spontaneous generation of life was previously used to say things like, "Flies were created by rotting meat" and such, but that distinction has become smaller and smaller as technology advanced and has shown that even the most basic forms of life are still very complicated.

That in itself is an argument against man stepping whole and complete from the mind of god. Why would all those simpler precursor forms exist? Slime mold?