Let’s Talk Predestination

[VySky]

Yeah, so what? God calling doesn’t make those called robots who then must follow the calling like mesmerized rats uncontrollably dancing Pied Piper’s song and uncontrollably following the Pied Piper to their destination. Those called freely choose to follow.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So? This verse is announcing a necessary condition to come to Jesus. God must “draw” a person to Jesus for the person to come to Jesus. The verse doesn’t announce a sufficient condition to come to Jesus. Hence, a logical inference from this verse is more than a “drawing” is to occur for someone to come to Jesus, such as perhaps the person “drawn” must freely choose to follow.

The word “unless” announced a necessary condition for something to occur and not a sufficient condition for something to occur.

The verse doesn’t state those who are drawn will come to Jesus.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

more than just the brain. And, the 3rd party should be the Holy Ghost. James prescribes the method of knowing truth in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. James 1:5-8, ask God with real intent. Others also admonish we study the scriptures, meditate on them, listen to what others teach, pray to God about it and then wait for the influence of the Holy Ghost to give us the answers. No double-mind either. So, there is nothing wrong with listening and seeking information. It's what we do with it that counts.

 

[NotreDame]

Yeah? And which part of that do you adopt as your own argument? Or do you just want to co-opt the entirety of another’s position rather than provide your own thoughts on the matter?

 

[Germinator]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?
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The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.

having gone to catholic parochial schools before going to a public university to study physics and along the way also managed to become a trained pilot,... I view the theological idea of “predestined” as akin to being the physical worlds "cause vs effect" (which can be predicted in the field of physics using math)

I also view reading scripture (and being able to put things into context) as being necessary to prevent the devil from creating hell on earth

IOW people should seriously be concerned about the fact that "temptation which comes from the enemy takes the form of a suggestion,..." according to St Thomas Aquinas (a catholic theologian)

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4041.htm

since the devil acts through the power of suggestion people should realize there is a battle going on between the forces of good vs evil which will determine if humanity turns the world into a living hell by "free will"

[W: #9] Prosperity Theology (work of the devil?!)

What good is having a flock if you don't fleece them - right? ;) http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-fundraises-trump-force-one-after-plane-makes-emergency-landing-2022-3 TRUMP is basically no different than various unholy self-serving TV evangelists (when it comes to asking the flock...

debatepolitics.com

...to illustrate how it is possible to sorta have an idea what is “determined beforehand” (in the real world) realize one thing pilots do to stay safe is learn about what not to do, so we read aircraft crash investigation reports

basically a final aircraft accident investigation report shows the "error chain" (basically the chain of events that caused an airplane crash),... so since I have a basic knowledge of math what I've added is knowledge of "bayesian math" to the mix (which is a way to get an idea of the "odds")

since a picture is worth a thousand words (AND view outcomes of "predestination") consider the case of the "miracle on the Hudson"

point of the illustration is,... the miracle on the Hudson happened because the pilot had the skill set (i.e. training) and didn't panic after accidentally having a collision w/ a flock of birds which killed the two aircraft engines just after takeoff

but looking at the decision tree illustrates there are other outcomes where a miracle would not have happened

as for the idea of predestination, the battle of good vs evil AND being able to put things in a theological context consider (looking at the decision tree diagram) the events that happened in the capital on jan 6th 2021

 

[Stealers Wheel]

I believe the Adversary (Satan) delights when people (believers and non) get bogged down in the minutiae. It distracts us from the relationships necessary for maximum joy and happiness in this life and comfort in what is to come in the hereafter.

 

[VySky]

By definition it is. Either god made you saved or he didn't. You have no power over where you're going so religion is pointless. Stop going to church, you're predestined to be saved anyway so it's a waste of time.

Stop with these lazy one liners. Defend your position or attack mine.

God commands his elect to go out and make disciples so staying at home will not suffice. We are to share the Good News

 

[VySky]

Yeah? And which part of that do you adopt as your own argument? Or do you just want to co-opt the entirety of another’s position rather than provide your own thoughts on the matter?

My thoughts point to scripture that state we are born dead. Dead to God spiritual and separated from him. We can’t do a thing. It’s God who does the action an we respond.

As it is written

‭‭I Kings‬ ‭19:17-18‬ ‭NKJV

18) “It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill.

18) Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.””

God chose those 7000 men to save. Their works or efforts had no consequence in his decision making. All others God allowed to worship Baal and are condemned to hell
‬‬

 

[RabidAlpaca]

God commands his elect to go out and make disciples so staying at home will not suffice. We are to share the Good News

It's absolutely hilarious to think that you consider yourself a Christian considering how much hate and filth you are constantly spewing around this forum. Do you seriously think the way you act here is Christ-like?

 

[Questerr]

I just opened a can of worms. Let’s discuss.

Thoughts?
—-


The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is predestination / predetermination? Is predestination biblical? What does predestined mean? Does God predestine who will be saved?

www.gotquestions.org

Then free will doesn’t exist and Jesus’s sacrifice was pointless.

 

[NotreDame]

My thoughts point to scripture that state we are born dead. Dead to God spiritual and separated from him. We can’t do a thing. It’s God who does the action an we respond.

As it is written

‭‭I Kings‬ ‭19:17-18‬ ‭NKJV

18) “It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill.

18) Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.””

God chose those 7000 men to save. Their works or efforts had no consequence in his decision making. All others God allowed to worship Baal and are condemned to hell
‬‬

More accurate to say God set the terms to be saved and people chose to accept and live by them, where God is a necessary condition and God extending salvation is a necessary condition and people choosing to accept and live by the conditions is sufficient.

 

[NotreDame]

Then free will doesn’t exist and Jesus’s sacrifice was pointless.

Not at all…

At some point, God and Jesus had many possible worlds to create. Our world was a possible world. Some, maybe all, of the possible worlds involved some kind of creation.

God and Jesus knew what is to transpire in the possible worlds before having actualized the possible world. God and Jesus foreknew what would transpire in our possible world. This foreknowledge of our possible world was of the choices made by humanity as a result of free will.

God and Jesus also foreknew how they would interact with humanity and who would be receptive by their own volition. So, God and Jesus chose to reward those who would freely accept the offer of salvation and determined from the beginning how to be saved but not who would choose salvation.

 

[Questerr]

Not at all…

At some point, God and Jesus had many possible worlds to create. Our world was a possible world. Some, maybe all, of the possible worlds involved some kind of creation.

God and Jesus knew what is to transpire in the possible worlds before having actualized the possible world. God and Jesus foreknew what would transpire in our possible world. This foreknowledge of our possible world was of the choices made by humanity as a result of free will.

God and Jesus also foreknew how they would interact with humanity and who would be receptive by their own volition. So, God and Jesus chose to reward those who would freely accept the offer of salvation and determined from the beginning how to be saved but not who would choose salvation.

Except humans didn’t exist before the creation of the world so they couldn’t have made choices. By choosing this “possible world”, human choices were made for them and free will doesn’t exist.

 

[NotreDame]

Except humans didn’t exist before the creation of the world so they couldn’t have made choices. By choosing this “possible world”, human choices were made for them and free will doesn’t exist.

Your logic simply doesn’t follow.

A possible world is a world that can logically exist. God may have contemplated any number of possible creations and possible worlds. God’s perfect foreknowledge of the possible worlds is of what would transpire if God actualized the possible world/creation.

Our existence was a possible world at one time, a possible creation in God’s contemplation. This possible world, possible creation, was one in which humans possessed free will. God’s perfect foreknowledge was of what people would freely do and how’d they would freely act in the possible world if actualized by God.

God “choosing” our existence as the possible world to actualize does not result in “human choices were made for them.” God can logically actualize a possible world where free will exists.

 

[Questerr]

Your logic simply doesn’t follow.

A possible world is a world that can logically exist. God may have contemplated any number of possible creations and possible worlds. God’s perfect foreknowledge of the possible worlds is of what would transpire if God actualized the possible world/creation.

Our existence was a possible world at one time, a possible creation in God’s contemplation. This possible world, possible creation, was one in which humans possessed free will. God’s perfect foreknowledge was of what people would freely do and how’d they would freely act in the possible world if actualized by God.

God “choosing” our existence as the possible world to actualize does not result in “human choices were made for them.” God can logically actualize a possible world where free will exists.

So humans can make choices that god didn’t predict, thereby making god wrong?

 

[The Baron]

By definition it is. Either god made you saved or he didn't. You have no power over where you're going so religion is pointless. Stop going to church, you're predestined to be saved anyway so it's a waste of time.

Stop with these lazy one liners. Defend your position or attack mine.

It certainly begs the question why the Great Commission (Matthew 28: 19-20) is even necessary.

 

[VySky]

It certainly begs the question why the Great Commission (Matthew 28: 19-20) is even necessary.

Because God said too. Thats why. The elect still need to hear the effective call.

 

[The Baron]

Because God said too. Thats why. The elect still need to hear the effective call.

I think you're missing my point. If they're going to Heaven anyway, they what's the point?

 

[VySky]

I think you're missing my point. If they're going to Heaven anyway, they what's the point?

They are going to heaven because God knows when they hear the call, they will respond. However, I don't question Gods will. It will be done regardless what I think.

 

[Daisy]

There no basis in the Bible for concluding that Jehovah has foreseen all the choices a person will make in his/her life...predestination would mean His wisdom is cold/devoid of feeling...it is not...

Does this mean, though, that God has already foreseen the choices you will make in life? Some who preach the doctrine of predestination insist that the answer is yes. However, that notion actually undermines Jehovah’s wisdom, for it implies that he cannot control his ability to look into the future. To illustrate: If you had a singing voice of unparalleled beauty, would you then have no choice but to sing all the time? The notion is absurd! Likewise, Jehovah has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that Jehovah will never revoke.—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

Worse yet, the very notion of predestination suggests that Jehovah’s wisdom is cold, devoid of heart, feeling, or compassion. But nothing could be further from the truth! The Bible teaches that Jehovah is “wise in heart.” (Job 9:4) Not that he has a literal heart, but the Bible often uses that term in connection with the innermost self, which includes motivations and feelings, such as love. So Jehovah’s wisdom, like his other qualities, is governed by love.—1 John 4:8.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002041

 

[tosca1]

There no basis in the Bible for concluding that Jehovah has foreseen all the choices a person will make in his/her life...predestination would mean His wisdom is cold/devoid of feeling...it is not...
Worse yet, the very notion of predestination suggests that Jehovah’s wisdom is cold, devoid of heart, feeling, or compassion. But nothing could be further from the truth! The Bible teaches that Jehovah is “wise in heart.” (Job 9:4) Not that he has a literal heart, but the Bible often uses that term in connection with the innermost self, which includes motivations and feelings, such as love. So Jehovah’s wisdom, like his other qualities, is governed by love.—1 John 4:8.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102002041

His knowledge is COMPLETE!
So yes, there is a basis for it. His OMNISCIENCE.


That doesn't mean, His wisdom is cold and devoid of feeling.

Same rationale for God knowing about disasters or anything tragic happening to us.
Knowing what will happen does not equate that GOD MADE it happen.

He may intervene at times - but He also knew that He would be intervening.

Does this mean, though, that God has already foreseen the choices you will make in life? Some who preach the doctrine of predestination insist that the answer is yes. However, that notion actually undermines Jehovah’s wisdom, for it implies that he cannot control his ability to look into the future. To illustrate: If you had a singing voice of unparalleled beauty, would you then have no choice but to sing all the time? The notion is absurd! Likewise, Jehovah has the ability to foreknow the future, but he does not use it all the time. To do so might infringe upon our own free will, a precious gift that Jehovah will never revoke.—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

It's not predestination!
It doesn't mean that we didn't have any free will.

 

[VySky]

Ephesians 1:5​

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New King James Version​

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5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will​

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Romans 8:29​

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New King James Version​

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29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren​

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For many are called but few chosen​

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[VySky]

I encourage you if you have the time to listen to the video I posted from Voddie Baucham in post #51. He does a very good job explaining predestination.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if you are a Calvinist (predestination) or Arminian (free will).

God called you and you answered.

 

[Daisy]

Yes, Jehovah predestined/foreordained/determined in advance, that a group of Christ’s followers would be adopted as sons of God to rule with Jesus in heaven...He predestined/foreordained/determined the group, 144,00...not the individuals...Jehovah’s purpose was included in the prophecy recorded at Genesis 3:15...

 

[NotreDame]

So humans can make choices that god didn’t predict, thereby making god wrong?

No.

 

[noonereal]

It's possibly the most sadistic and immoral theistic concept anyone has ever dreamt up. Someone that believes that believes that god created billions of people for the explicit and intentional purpose of eternal damnnation and torture.

There's nothing that person can do to change his hellish destiny, so free will, morality, and everything else become meaningless. This is really the scummiest gutter of theology and I pity and look down on anyone that actually believes that.

Rotflmao!

You? You, look down on someone who likely posts a more reasoned post than you? Lol

Cool post. Way fun post.