Legalize it!

[Mensch]

Then I have to reject your claims regarding moderate consumption of alcohol. Offhand, I can cite ten people that I know that consume alcohol on a moderate basis, have done so for years, and continue to do so with no addictive behavior. What your mother experienced was a tolerance leading to an addiction.

I don't think you were able to study these ten people over a course of a lifetime. I observed very closely what alcohol did to one woman (who happens to have zero family history of alcoholism) over a course of 20+ years. Then again, I'm only 23.

What you are talking about is tolerance level, not addiction. Your body becomes accustomed to certain things, one of which is alcohol if you drink it. Over time, consumption breeds tolerance and if you're looking to get drunk or buzzed, you have to consume more to pass your tolerance. With moderate consumption, by the time your tolerance starts edging into the zone where physiological dependence sets in, you're usually dead or cant drink anymore.

tolerance also breeds dependence. And tolerance affects everyone, yet when do we reflect back on the aspect of "moderation?" If a six-pack or two is what one individual has been accustomed to drinking a day, can we still consider that "moderation?"

I know a man who claimed he ate a Twinkie and killed someone, should we ban Twinkies? Alcohol and marijuana both impair judgement.

That would benefit my argument. If we had it my way, heroin and cocaine would be legal. Both impair your judgement, but none of them affect society in the same way that alcohol does, yet alcohol must also remain legal to consume. Motorcycles and fast cars kill many thousands of people each year, yet I don't believe we should forbid the consumption of those products.

This isnt a simple case of "I can put what I want in my own body", what you do has effect on the society around you.

This has absolutely everything to do with the jurisdiction of our own body. If we're restricted from consuming certain products, from surfing certain Internet sites, from expressing certain thoughts, or from making decisions about our own body (ie prostitution, abortion, drug use), then we're not free.

And the last point is nonsense. Drug laws do more harm than good, and there is a mountain of evidence to prove that. If you wish to discuss personal decisions harming third parties, then we can discuss those cases. But otherwise, you're just willing to outlaw anything that may potentially harm others (a twinkie, for instance).

 

[Hoplite]

I don't think you were able to study these ten people over a course of a lifetime. I observed very closely what alcohol did to one woman (who happens to have zero family history of alcoholism) over a course of 20+ years. Then again, I'm only 23.

These are individuals I've been around since I was making sand-castles on the playground and I'm in my 20's. Most of these people have maybe a beer or a glass of wine with dinner and maybe two if there's a party or a big dinner. They have no trouble leaving it alone if they run out or if there's a reason they cant drink. If you drink in moderation and drink for taste and socially, not to get drunk, your chances of addiction are very low.

tolerance also breeds dependence. And tolerance affects everyone, yet when do we reflect back on the aspect of "moderation?" If a six-pack or two is what one individual has been accustomed to drinking a day, can we still consider that "moderation?"

If someone is drinking to be drunk, tolerance and then addiction will come swiftly. If you are drinking alcohol the same way you or I might drink a soda, for taste, then tolerance is extremely slow to build.

That would benefit my argument. If we had it my way, heroin and cocaine would be legal. Both impair your judgement, but none of them affect society in the same way that alcohol does, yet alcohol must also remain legal to consume.

Heroin and cocaine are rabidly addictive, even with low dosage. Alcohol and marijuana are not.

Motorcycles and fast cars kill many thousands of people each year, yet I don't believe we should forbid the consumption of those products.

Motorcycles and fast cars are not the same as alcohol or marijuana.

This has absolutely everything to do with the jurisdiction of our own body. If we're restricted from consuming certain products, from surfing certain Internet sites, from expressing certain thoughts, or from making decisions about our own body (ie prostitution, abortion, drug use), then we're not free.

Except we arent talking about the Internet or thoughts. We're talking about allowing a substance to be legalized where we have no solid evidence for it's safety and claimed harmlessness.

And the last point is nonsense. Drug laws do more harm than good, and there is a mountain of evidence to prove that.

Then I'd like to see some.

you're just willing to outlaw anything that may potentially harm others (a twinkie, for instance).

I'm interested in outlawing things that are definitely harmful to human health or finding safer alternatives. If you can demonstrate factual, solid, and irrefutable medical evidence to suggest that marijuana is as harmless as you say it is, I'd be happy to change my mind.

 

[BDBoop]

If you can demonstrate factual, solid, and irrefutable medical evidence to suggest that marijuana is as harmless as you say it is, I'd be happy to change my mind.

Given how harmful alcohol is (and legal at that) why are you holding marijuana to so much of a higher standard?
:shock:

 

[Hoplite]

Given how harmful alcohol is (and legal at that) why are you holding marijuana to so much of a higher standard?
:shock:

I'd like to see alcohol fall into disuse, but I have to face the reality that banning alcohol will cause far greater problems than it's current legal status.

I hold marijuana to a higher standard because it doesn't currently have a legal foothold.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

I hold marijuana to a higher standard because it doesn't currently have a legal foothold.

Not a very good argument if you knew how its prohibition came about.

 

[Hoplite]

Not a very good argument if you knew how its prohibition came about.

It came about because people thought it made blacks and Mexicans uppity and aggressive. It's stupid, but good things can come out of even the most stupid circumstances.

 

[BDBoop]

It came about because people thought it made blacks and Mexicans uppity and aggressive. It's stupid, but good things can come out of even the most stupid circumstances.

Okay - that didn't make any sense to me. How can you say it's a good thing when you're operating from a place of ignorance?

 

[Hoplite]

Okay - that didn't make any sense to me. How can you say it's a good thing when you're operating from a place of ignorance?

The reason for the ban was stupid, but if it turns out that marijuana is harmful then we have the advantage of marijuana already being banned and we dont have to contend with the same problems that came about during Prohibition.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

The reason for the ban was stupid, but if it turns out that marijuana is harmful then we have the advantage of marijuana already being banned and we dont have to contend with the same problems that came about during Prohibition.

We know marijuana is hardly harmful, if you smoked it 4 times a day every day for a decade it might be. We are dealing with the problems that came about during prohibition.

 

[Councilman]

From what I understand the California Law will require all the Pot in you position to hbe in a container that is marked in a way to show that you payed the tax.

What a brilliant Idea, that will kill the underground sales dead once and for all.

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I figure you buy the taxed stuff once and use the container until it wears out.

I mean come this is a big DOUBLE DUH!

Not that I would ever partake in the wacky tobaccy or advocate it's use.

Not that in my youth like so many others my age, i did one day dawn a lab coat and conduct a few experiment for about 30 years or so.

My research shows that if one gets high on beer and is told to make a high jump he is incapable physically of making the jump.

the Same subject on Pot is fully capable of repeatedly making the same jump he failed at while high on beer.

The only thing is he keeps forgetting what the assignment was.

Anybody got any Fritos, maybe Ho Hos, Twinkies? Anything?

 

[Hoplite]

We know marijuana is hardly harmful

No, we dont know that.

 

[BDBoop]

The reason for the ban was stupid, but if it turns out that marijuana is harmful then we have the advantage of marijuana already being banned and we dont have to contend with the same problems that came about during Prohibition.

... how is it going to turn out it is when people have been using it for longer than I've been on the planet (and I'm over five decades old).

 

[BDBoop]

We know marijuana is hardly harmful, if you smoked it 4 times a day every day for a decade it might be. We are dealing with the problems that came about during prohibition.

No, we dont know that.

Yes. We do. Read some of the studies already available before you - Man. Seriously? Meth no. Heroin? Of course not. Pot in the same category as the other two? Ludicrous. And? I'd put alcohol in the same category as meth and heroin, if we're going to look at how much damage it can do.

 

[rathi]

No, we dont know that.

Yes we do. There are countless well researched medical studies on the subject. If you truly cared about health issues, you might believe in banning smoking marijuana, as the combustion process has nasty byproducts. However, eating a pot brownie avoids nearly every negative effect. Marijuana is less toxic than hundreds of everyday products you wouldn't consider harmful. If you don't like the concept of recreational drug use, that is your call, but don't make up non-existent health issues.

 

[rathi]

From what I understand the California Law will require all the Pot in you position to hbe in a container that is marked in a way to show that you payed the tax.

What a brilliant Idea, that will kill the underground sales dead once and for all.

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I figure you buy the taxed stuff once and use the container until it wears out.

Market forces are likely going to be massively in favor of the legal stuff. The cost of having to operate under the radar is a lot more than the cost of paying the tax. Why would you take the risks of committing a crime if you end up having to pay more money in the process?

 

[Hoplite]

... how is it going to turn out it is when people have been using it for longer than I've been on the planet (and I'm over five decades old).

Because serious medical investigation into it's use hasnt been undertaken until the last several decades.

Read some of the studies already available before you -

There are countless well researched medical studies on the subject.

I've also read dozens of studies that show a negative impact on human health. That's the problem, there are dozens of CONFLICTING studies and inconclusive information. With that in mind, I cant support it's legalization until we have some definitive evidence.

Why would you take the risks of committing a crime if you end up having to pay more money in the process?

Corporations do it all the time.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Why does it matter one iota if it's unhealthy to use? It's not your body, it's not your choice, it's not your problem, and it's none of your friggin business!

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

I have, which is the sole reason I'm against the legalisation of it, I understand all the logical arguments for legalisation, but having seen what it did to this one bloke, I'm against it.

What about the drunk man who beats his wife or the drunk driver who kills someone in a collision? What about the crackhead whose drug of choice was fueled by governments cracking down on marijuana prompting cartels to increase supplies of other drugs? Was another drug put in the pot that could've predisposed him toward this that would probably have been prevented by government or market regulation?

 

[hallam]

EXACTLY. And tobacco, and scuba diving, rock climbing, skydiving, racecar driving, motorcycles, etc.

Alcohol and tobacco should be treated as drugs. That is what they are. However, scuba diving, rock climbing, skydiving, race car driving, and motercycles are not drugs therefore do not enter into the conversation. Those of us for the continued criminalization of drugs should include nicotine and alcohol too.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Those of us for the continued criminalization of drugs should include nicotine and alcohol too.

At least you're consistent. I would like to understand what problems you think drug prohibition solves, and why you think drug prohibition can be any more successful than alcohol prohibition was.

 

[rathi]

Because serious medical investigation into it's use hasnt been undertaken until the last several decades.

Which is 100x more than the legal drugs your doctor can give you. To make it more entertaining, nobody has died from THC overdose in recorded history, which is more than can be said for Alcohol, Tylenol or even water. You are applying an absurd standard to Marijuana, while ignoring hundreds of substances that are proven to more dangerous. Why the inconsistency?

I've also read dozens of studies that show a negative impact on human health. That's the problem, there are dozens of CONFLICTING studies and inconclusive information. With that in mind, I cant support it's legalization until we have some definitive evidence.

Show me a single study that shows serious negative health effects from Cannabis molecules without smoking as a vector.

Corporations do it all the time.

But regular citizens don't. You have may have noticed that despite being taxed very heavily, Tobacco and Alcohol have nonexistent black markets.

 

[Hoplite]

Which is 100x more than the legal drugs your doctor can give you. To make it more entertaining, nobody has died from THC overdose in recorded history, which is more than can be said for Alcohol, Tylenol or even water. You are applying an absurd standard to Marijuana, while ignoring hundreds of substances that are proven to more dangerous. Why the inconsistency?

Because we arent talking about legal drugs, we're talking about illegal ones.

Show me a single study that shows serious negative health effects from Cannabis molecules without smoking as a vector.

HOW DOES MARIJUANA AFFECT THE BRAIN? | Serendip's Exchange
Smoking is mentioned but the deleterious effects can result from consumption by any means, smoking being the most common.

Exposing the Myth of Smoked Medical Marijuana
While I do agree that much of what's on this sheet is over-stated, it's claims are sourced to reputable areas.

Marijuana Abuse - Research Report Series - NIDA
The site has a PDF with a great deal of helpful information.

Effects of marijuana on the lung and its immune defenses
This study reveals an immunosuppressant effect brought on by marijuana usage.

Substance Use During Pregnancy | Patient Education | UCSF Benioff Children's Hospital
This details harm that can come to a fetus exposed to marijuana pre-birth

I'll be the first to admit, this information is somewhat incomplete. There is a lack of solid and comprehensive research on both sides. I would like to see a full federally funded study to settle the question once and for all. Until that time, I'm not comfortable with advocating for it being legal.

But regular citizens don't. You have may have noticed that despite being taxed very heavily, Tobacco and Alcohol have nonexistent black markets.

Non-existent black markets? You dont get out very much, do you? The markets now are more for tax-stamps than the actual product themselves. Buy smokes in a state where taxes are less, sell them off the truck without charging for the extra taxes in a high-cigarette tax state. The same happens with alcohol being bought and sold without the ATF's knowledge to avoid taxes as well as moonshining.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Non-existent black markets? You dont get out very much, do you? The markets now are more for tax-stamps than the actual product themselves. Buy smokes in a state where taxes are less, sell them off the truck without charging for the extra taxes in a high-cigarette tax state. The same happens with alcohol being bought and sold without the ATF's knowledge to avoid taxes as well as moonshining.

The solution's pretty simple then. Don't tax the crap out of it.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Whether or not pot is harmful is a pointless debate when discussing legalization. If we banned everything that could harm you, we'd all be put in straight-jackets in padded rooms. People can decide for themselves.

 

[SgtRock]

I say Legalize It, don't criticize it. Legalize it yeaha, yeaha and I will advertise it.

SgtRock supports legalization. :rock

Peter Tosh was one of the founding members of the Wailers. In 1976 he went solo and released Legalize It I first listened to the Wailers in 78 and purchased Kaya (1978) that had some of my favorite Bob Marley tunes such as Sun is Shining, Misty Morning, and of course Kaya. I then bought Legalize It and still own that vinyl LP today.

Here is Legalize it, enjoy