Its time to bomb iran - inspections and sanctions will never work

[Laila]

All the legitimate public opinion polls like Pew research say otherwise, with levels of antisemitism as high as 99% in some Arab countries.

Perhaps you should speak of what you know rather than just imagaining something and stating it as truth.

A horrible view about Jews does not equal wanting to kill them. That tends to be the minority.
The majority of Muslims have more pressing issues in their home country to be actively attempting the destruction of Israel.

 

[MSgt]

You people don't know what you are asking for.

Bush and Company robbed the U.S. of the "regime change" tool. Furthermore, their bungling of Iraq has banned the idea of "preemptive strikes" for now. This is what happens when good intentions and a step forward for humankind are packaged in strategic illiteracy and bull ****. I'll even go further and state that the whole Iraq and Afghanistan affair has proven that the world has lost its grip on what is and is not moral anyway. Now, considering the world is responsible enough to move on from prior mistakes and find enough balls to protect itself....

...If we strike Iran, we had better do it right. There is far more to this than just "bomb 'em." First of all, there is no chance that Israel could handle Iran on their own. There are basic requirements for knocking down Iran's nuke program and Israel just couldn't do it as they once did for us in regards to Iraq. Israelis lack the capacity to sustain a strategic offensive against Iran - or to deal with the inevitable mess they'd leave behind in the Persian Gulf. It's the U.S. (primarily the troops) that would have to face the potential catastrophic aftermath.

- Air defenses have to be knocked out to protect our planes.
- Communications networks have tobeknocked out to degrade military reaction.
- There are no doubt dozens of dispersed nuclear related targets.
- Anti-ship missiles installations along Iran'scoast would have to be knocked out to protect oil tankers.
- Iran's naval capacity would have to go.
- Long range and intermediate range missiles would have to go.
- Key command centers in Tehran along with Revolutionary Guard posts would have to be destroyed.

There are other aftermath considerations as well. After a few weeks of this and a few months of asymmetrical warfare Iraq would surely heat back up. Screw up the effort and oil prices will double and triple. Of course, with the White House's superhuman ability to ignore the wisdom of the military from one administration to the next why should we assume that any of this would be considered? Israel could not do this on its own. The U.S. would have to take lead and the rest of the 'sit-out' Western world would have to be forced to get off their asses and assume responsibilities so they can share in the aftermath.

I've read that think tanks in Washington and so called expert analysts have actually suggested that bombing them just enough will encourage Iranians to rise up and overthrow their current government. This is as stupid as it gets. Once again the morons are spinning their culturally ignorant wheels using the last war to pre-condition the process for the next one. Iran is no Iraq. As disillusioned as Iranians are in regards to their current government, they would rally behind it to defend it. Iran has a nationalistic streak like Egypt. Perhaps this is because these two nations have a recorded national history and identitiy prior to Islam, but this is beside the point. The point is that Iranians would no more turn on their government in light of outside aggression than Americans would turn on Bush and Co. if we were bombed out or invaded by the outside. Their population is not divided in terms of national pride and duty like Iraq was.

An attack on Iran could not be orchestrated on the cheap with the same "Shock-and-Awe" tactic expectation. Critical targets could not be placed off-limits just to spare Iranian lives. If there's one thing everybody should have learned from the bungling in Iraq and Afghanistan it is that breaking the other's toys will not bring swift victory. A population must feel defeated and its will must be broken. The alternative only places our troops in unnecessary dangers and prolongs the agony of war. Despite their denials, war protestors and pundits facilitate further unnecessary death. The idiot politicians and diplomats had better get it right from day one and resist the urge to back step in order to satisfy the ignorant whines of the public once their media entertains them with the hardened truth of what they demanded.

This would be an all or nothing scenario. Another consideration is that if we do manage to bungle it the new regime may be even more hardened towards the West with nuclear ambitions in over-drive in the wake of dead Iranians.

"Just bomb 'em?" Some of you should run for office.

 

[MSgt]

Force of arms will NOT help us in this.

The CORRECT force of arms will absolutely help us with this. As will a proper perspective. Of course, what's so bad about a second North Korea with nuclear weapons? Worse, what's so bad about a tribal Middle Eastern nation having nuclear weapons with a history of supporting terrorism? A Cold War in the Middle East sounds great.

You know what is absolutely hilarious to me? That this is yet another example of how people, who are too afraid to deal with an obvious problem, talk themselves into a situation where our troops have to shed even more of their blood than they would have had to. The Iranian nuclear program could have been long behind us had we acted 5 years ago. Of course, now our troops have to contend with an even more difficult job as Iranians have been preparing to defend their programs and strategically placed their offensive weapons to cripple the world economy in revenge.

Nothing makes a war harder than to tell your enemy that you are coming and that he has years and years of preparation time.

 

[LizardofOz]

Iran is a case of a country where the old timers are running out of time and once they are cleared out a more modernized society can form guided by the youth of Iran. I think there will be a revolution in Iran before we would even have a chance to go to war with them.

I saw a special on PBS about Iran and for the most part the people there seem to be pretty nice, and the vast majority of them don't much care for their own government and are just waiting for the day when they can get rid of them. I think are more immediate security troubles are moving towards Africa and Pakistan. Let's concentrate on them first.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

The vast majority of them don't much care for their own government and are just waiting for the day when they can get rid of them. I think are more immediate security troubles are moving towards Africa and Pakistan. Let's concentrate on them first.

The majority however issue support for their government according to polls.

 

[Hoplite]

The majority however issue support for their government according to polls.

Polls in the country where the government saw no qualms about rigging a supposedly democratic election

 

[MKULTRABOY]

The trick is they probably didn't have to rig it and it may not have been. Last I researched.

 

[MSgt]

The trick is they probably didn't have to rig it and it may not have been. Last I researched.

Well, there is no evidence that I am aware of that proves any fraud.

However, I do have the ability to use a measure of intelligence and a degree of common sense. Aside from plenty of circumstantial evidence, the proof is in the crowd. With roughly 70 percent of the population under the age of 30 it is highly unlikely that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won their landslide votes. This is a society that was electing leaders who were more and more liberal, which meant that the religious majlis was losing more and more power to control. Then came Ahmadinejad's election. In quick fashion, Western music, film, and products began to be banned from Iran. The majlis got their power back and the ghost of Khomeini emerged. Also, Iran's nuclear program, long shelved, was now a focus.

With this last election, the world was audience to great unrest and civil disturbance. These were people that were so sure that their election system had failed them that they took to the streets in pro-longed protest (often violently). These were people who knew that the pre-election period was marred with assassination attempts on would be candidates, the blocking of communications during the elcetions, and controversial number counts across the country. You think they don't miss Hollywood? They don't want their "MTV?"

What do you think is likely? That this population, who had been voting for more and more freedoms, all of a sudden wanted oppression and a police state? Or is it more likely something isn't kosher in Shia town?

The Iranian people don't trust their government. Why do you?

 

[LizardofOz]

The majority however issue support for their government according to polls.

Have links to these polls that don't come from a Irani state newspaper?

 

[deltabtry]

The CORRECT force of arms will absolutely help us with this. As will a proper perspective. Of course, what's so bad about a second North Korea with nuclear weapons? Worse, what's so bad about a tribal Middle Eastern nation having nuclear weapons with a history of supporting terrorism? A Cold War in the Middle East sounds great.

You know what is absolutely hilarious to me? That this is yet another example of how people, who are too afraid to deal with an obvious problem, talk themselves into a situation where our troops have to shed even more of their blood than they would have had to. The Iranian nuclear program could have been long behind us had we acted 5 years ago. Of course, now our troops have to contend with an even more difficult job as Iranians have been preparing to defend their programs and strategically placed their offensive weapons to cripple the world economy in revenge.

Nothing makes a war harder than to tell your enemy that you are coming and that he has years and years of preparation time.

Nothing makes a war harder than to tell your enemy that you are coming and that he has years and years of preparation time.

Well Top, I think the USMC in the Pacific campaign in WW2 understand what it is like to fight a entrenched enemy who had years to prepare for a eventual invasion and it wasn't pretty. Well said....oh BTW you spot on in your other post BTW. Iran and it's younger generation have a thirst for change and currently we and the world (civilized and with some balls that is) should stand behind them.

 

[deltabtry]

Have links to these polls that don't come from a Irani stae newspaper?

any information put out by the media in Iran has to be cleared by the state..your are correct.

 

[Hoplite]

The trick is they probably didn't have to rig it and it may not have been. Last I researched.

Districts where more people voted for Ahmadinejad than were eligible to vote in the whole district, accusations by the government of Mousavi planning a coup, a violent crackdown on anyone disputing the results, no national recount...

 

[Vader]

Neither statement is true. The vast majority of the Arab world is filled with people who want to live their lives. The anti-Semitics are the radical religious factions that shouldnt not be construed to speak for the entire Arab or Muslim population.

Says you.

Can I ask you something, what religion are you?

I'm a mormon.

America endured centuries of racial hatred towards blacks, and we seem to have gotten over it. Britain was involved in the slave trade for centuries and I dont see any British terrorist groups attacking blacks in Britain.

Yes, we did. We live in THIS century. The arabs in the middle east live in the 16th century,

Iran is not a threat. Too much of their economy is tied up in global economics so any action the Iranians take against a world power effects their economy negatively and they cant afford that. Hezbollah can be countered by not doing what feeds their organization.

I am afraid you are mistaken. Iran is very much a threat. Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism.

Force of arms will NOT help us in this.

Diplomacy isn't doing much either. What do you suggest?

 

[Vader]

You people don't know what you are asking for.

Bush and Company robbed the U.S. of the "regime change" tool. Furthermore, their bungling of Iraq has banned the idea of "preemptive strikes" for now. This is what happens when good intentions and a step forward for humankind are packaged in strategic illiteracy and bull ****. I'll even go further and state that the whole Iraq and Afghanistan affair has proven that the world has lost its grip on what is and is not moral anyway. Now, considering the world is responsible enough to move on from prior mistakes and find enough balls to protect itself....

...If we strike Iran, we had better do it right. There is far more to this than just "bomb 'em." First of all, there is no chance that Israel could handle Iran on their own. There are basic requirements for knocking down Iran's nuke program and Israel just couldn't do it as they once did for us in regards to Iraq. Israelis lack the capacity to sustain a strategic offensive against Iran - or to deal with the inevitable mess they'd leave behind in the Persian Gulf. It's the U.S. (primarily the troops) that would have to face the potential catastrophic aftermath.

- Air defenses have to be knocked out to protect our planes.
- Communications networks have tobeknocked out to degrade military reaction.
- There are no doubt dozens of dispersed nuclear related targets.
- Anti-ship missiles installations along Iran'scoast would have to be knocked out to protect oil tankers.
- Iran's naval capacity would have to go.
- Long range and intermediate range missiles would have to go.
- Key command centers in Tehran along with Revolutionary Guard posts would have to be destroyed.

There are other aftermath considerations as well. After a few weeks of this and a few months of asymmetrical warfare Iraq would surely heat back up. Screw up the effort and oil prices will double and triple. Of course, with the White House's superhuman ability to ignore the wisdom of the military from one administration to the next why should we assume that any of this would be considered? Israel could not do this on its own. The U.S. would have to take lead and the rest of the 'sit-out' Western world would have to be forced to get off their asses and assume responsibilities so they can share in the aftermath.

I've read that think tanks in Washington and so called expert analysts have actually suggested that bombing them just enough will encourage Iranians to rise up and overthrow their current government. This is as stupid as it gets. Once again the morons are spinning their culturally ignorant wheels using the last war to pre-condition the process for the next one. Iran is no Iraq. As disillusioned as Iranians are in regards to their current government, they would rally behind it to defend it. Iran has a nationalistic streak like Egypt. Perhaps this is because these two nations have a recorded national history and identitiy prior to Islam, but this is beside the point. The point is that Iranians would no more turn on their government in light of outside aggression than Americans would turn on Bush and Co. if we were bombed out or invaded by the outside. Their population is not divided in terms of national pride and duty like Iraq was.

An attack on Iran could not be orchestrated on the cheap with the same "Shock-and-Awe" tactic expectation. Critical targets could not be placed off-limits just to spare Iranian lives. If there's one thing everybody should have learned from the bungling in Iraq and Afghanistan it is that breaking the other's toys will not bring swift victory. A population must feel defeated and its will must be broken. The alternative only places our troops in unnecessary dangers and prolongs the agony of war. Despite their denials, war protestors and pundits facilitate further unnecessary death. The idiot politicians and diplomats had better get it right from day one and resist the urge to back step in order to satisfy the ignorant whines of the public once their media entertains them with the hardened truth of what they demanded.

This would be an all or nothing scenario. Another consideration is that if we do manage to bungle it the new regime may be even more hardened towards the West with nuclear ambitions in over-drive in the wake of dead Iranians.

"Just bomb 'em?" Some of you should run for office.

Diplomacy is not working either, MasterSgt. We have to stop the mindless terrorist hordes (Iran's govenmental body and the Republican Guard) must not have nukes. If they will not respond to diplomacy, what choice do we have?

 

[Vader]

A horrible view about Jews does not equal wanting to kill them. That tends to be the minority.
The majority of Muslims have more pressing issues in their home country to be actively attempting the destruction of Israel.

If that were the case, the 67 war would never have happened.

 

[Hoplite]

Says you.

Yeah, an education does that.

I'm a mormon.

So, you'd be totally cool with us being nervous around you because you have twenty wives and control their lives utterly while forcing your children to marry at 12 or 13?

Yes, we did. We live in THIS century. The arabs in the middle east live in the 16th century,

Ok, time is not like sunlight. If it's 2010 here, it's 2010 there.

I am afraid you are mistaken. Iran is very much a threat. Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism.

Then start a trade embargo.

Diplomacy isn't doing much either. What do you suggest?

A trade embargo for starters. A world-wide trade embargo similar to South Africa during Apartheid puts immense economic pressure on a country. Iran may enjoy waving it's wang at us but basic economics is still everyone's Achilles' heel at this point.

 

[Vader]

Yeah, an education does that.
So, you'd be totally cool with us being nervous around you because you have twenty wives and control their lives utterly while forcing your children to marry at 12 or 13?

Apparently not, because mainstream mormons gave up plural marriage around 1900 A.D. What was that you were saying about an education?

Ok, time is not like sunlight. If it's 2010 here, it's 2010 there.

I was speaking metephorically of the muslims and their shocking inability to stop following practices used in 1600 A.D. Arab land. Nothing in those countries (with minor exceptions) has changed in 400 years. It's time those people stopped the 1600's bull**** and started living in 2010.

Then start a trade embargo.

It's already been done.

A trade embargo for starters. A world-wide trade embargo similar to South Africa during Apartheid puts immense economic pressure on a country. Iran may enjoy waving it's wang at us but basic economics is still everyone's Achilles' heel at this point.

It's been done. The problem is the morons in China and Russia are not following suit ... so the sanctions, while tough, are not nearly as effective as they could be.

 

[Hoplite]

Apparently not, because mainstream mormons gave up plural marriage around 1900 A.D. What was that you were saying about an education?

Some apparently didnt get the memo

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My basic point is that you dislike it when someone takes a small and radical part of your religious beliefs and then applies their value judgements of that to you without differentiating between someone who is extremely radical and your own beliefs. So why is it ok to do it to someone else?

I was speaking metephorically of the muslims and their shocking inability to stop following practices used in 1600 A.D. Arab land. Nothing in those countries (with minor exceptions) has changed in 400 years. It's time those people stopped the 1600's bull**** and started living in 2010.

The majority of the citizens do. During the beginning of the unrest in Iran, I had the opportunity to interact with dozens of Iranian bloggers, internet users, and online journalists and the vast majority of Iranian society is as modern as you or I. Their leadership is somewhat medieval, but it must be noted that this is leadership that stays in power by fixing elections and police crackdowns.

It's already been done.

Not to the extent it needs to be.

It's been done. The problem is the morons in China and Russia are not following suit ... so the sanctions, while tough, are not nearly as effective as they could be.

China and Russia are sovereign countries and as such have the right to trade or not trade with whoever they please, just as we do. We need to start building international pressure on countries like China and Russia to join the embargos and make them stronger. With enough force of public opinion in Russia and international pressure on China, both countries WILL join the embargo.

 

[jmh423]

Israel destroyed the entire Egyptian Air Force by sneak attack much like Pearl Harbor to start the '67 war. That war was started by Israel as the beginning of the second huge land grab. To wit:


Bibi Back at the White House — The Consistency of Israeli Duplicity Comes Ever More Clearly into Focus | Criminal State



EXCERPT:

"Israel was neither under attack nor under threat of attack as its leadership has since conceded. Air raid sirens were just props in the stagecraft of waging war by way of deception. The Israel-as-victim storyline was stage-managed by Zionist extremists to make both Israeli citizens and foreign observers believe that the Jewish state was endangered. As with the phony intelligence that induced the U.S. to war in Iraq in March 2003, the facts in June 1967 differed dramatically from the geopolitical narrative. Under cover of that false attack, Tel Aviv occupied land belonging to its neighbors. The bulk of that property is still held by force 43 years later with the support of the U.S. as its oft-duped ally.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

jmh423 is now thread banned.

 

[Vader]

Some apparently didnt get the memo
Not to the extent it needs to be.

Indeed. We need to completely blackhole Iran.

China and Russia are sovereign countries and as such have the right to trade or not trade with whoever they please, just as we do. We need to start building international pressure on countries like China and Russia to join the embargos and make them stronger. With enough force of public opinion in Russia and international pressure on China, both countries WILL join the embargo.

We can only hope.

 

[youknowwho]

The United States started from scratch and fabricated atomic weapons in less time than Iran has already been allotted.

I think it's far too late for an effective preemption. An attack could retard the outcome, but not eliminate it.

agreed. beside that, even if Iran could reach the capacity to build a nuclear weapon, it's completely useless against inside opposition, even if it somehow eliminates the outside threat.
war, if at all is a solution, should be the last possible solution. with the current atmosphere of Iranian politics, there is nothing that government can do easily. that means, hiding something as important as nuclear weapons is completely impossible. Iranian government is facing such strong opposition from inside that it can no longer ignore it. all that Iranian people need, is the cooperation of international community in weakening of the economic infrastructure of government, so that people could face a weakened government and not a strong one. that seems like the only peaceful chance for a change in Iran.

 

[youknowwho]

All the legitimate public opinion polls like Pew research say otherwise, with levels of antisemitism as high as 99% in some Arab countries.

Perhaps you should speak of what you know rather than just imagaining something and stating it as truth.

if there was a free poll in Iran, I guess the results would've been surprisingly low. there are cultural bonds between Jews and Iranians that even thirty years of propaganda cannot destroy. besides, many Iranian Jews currently living in Israel would prefer to live in Iran if it was a free and democratic country.

 

[youknowwho]

Iran is a case of a country where the old timers are running out of time and once they are cleared out a more modernized society can form guided by the youth of Iran. I think there will be a revolution in Iran before we would even have a chance to go to war with them.

I saw a special on PBS about Iran and for the most part the people there seem to be pretty nice, and the vast majority of them don't much care for their own government and are just waiting for the day when they can get rid of them. I think are more immediate security troubles are moving towards Africa and Pakistan. Let's concentrate on them first.

when government's popularity is less than 7%, any event can lead to a revolution. people are just not violent enough, yet.

 

[Gardener]

if there was a free poll in Iran, I guess the results would've been surprisingly low. there are cultural bonds between Jews and Iranians that even thirty years of propaganda cannot destroy. besides, many Iranian Jews currently living in Israel would prefer to live in Iran if it was a free and democratic country.

I think it would be quite low in Iran, too.

Iran could be great stabilizing force in the region if only the people were in control rather than the Mullahs.