Is ubridled immigration really good for the UK??

[Andalublue]

The problem is though I keep referencing trends and attitudes within islam, as well

The problem is though that you don't. I keep asking you what these attitudes and trends are and you keep avoiding the question.

Again, the countries in question are not exclusive to SA.

I never claimed they were exclusively south Asian, it's just that all south Asian nationalities appear in the upper reaches.

Second, there is a clear disparity in the numbers concerning the SA countries

Yes, there is. What do you think the decisive factors are? Poverty, religion or history of the migration of people from those countries?

Second, do either of those countries represent the same degree of religious adherence as we have in places like Somalia, Turkey, Pakistan, and Bangladesh?

No, Italy probably not*, but then they don't represent the same degree of absolute poverty either, or of lesser human development. There are whole raft of reasons and causes that will influence these figures yet, as usual, you've only got eyes for one.

*EDIT: I just checked, church going in the USA is far higher than Mosque-going in Turkey.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

No, Italy probably not*, but then they don't represent the same degree of absolute poverty either, or of lesser human development. There are whole raft of reasons and causes that will influence these figures yet, as usual, you've only got eyes for one.

Uhh, my argument was never that the underlying factor was exclusively islam, only that Islam plays a part here. Which was originally meant to address your claim that it was culture based and that these cultural attitudes had nothing to do with religion

*EDIT: I just checked, church going in the USA is far higher than Mosque-going in Turkey.

can you source this?

 

[Andalublue]

Uhh, my argument was never that the underlying factor was exclusively islam, only that Islam plays a part here. Which was originally meant to address your claim that it was culture based and that these cultural attitudes had nothing to do with religion

That wasn't my claim, ever. Religion is a part of culture but far from its only component. As is ideology, but to an even lesser extent. To use a medical analogy, culture is a syndrome, not a single infection.

can you source this?

Yes, I can.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

That wasn't my claim, ever. Religion is a part of culture but far from its only component. As is ideology, but to an even lesser extent. To use a medical analogy, culture is a syndrome, not a single infection.

vs

There appear to be many factors at play but the one that doesn't appear to feature is the influence of religious belief.

Yes, I can.

And?

12345

 

[Andalublue]

vs





And?

12345

That specific report I was quoting from said that religious beliefs did not seem to play a part. Someone else's opinion, not mine. In my view in the construction of social attitudes, in the context of the wider culture, of course it does, although I don't think it carries the weight you seem to believe. I also believe that a lot of the practices that the anti-Islam lobby ascribe to Islamic theology are actually engrained social traditions that either predate or emerged in parallel with the religion.

I could provide the source but I'm not going to link to it. Requests for clarifications and citations have been flying back and forth here and you seem reluctant to answer my questions. Why would I be doing for you what you refuse to do for me? Suffice it to say, the stats I was using came from Pew.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

That specific report I was quoting from said that religious beliefs did not seem to play a part. Someone else's opinion, not mine.

lol, clearly you agreed with it

I could provide the source but I'm not going to link to it. Requests for clarifications and citations have been flying back and forth here and you seem reluctant to answer my questions. Why would I be doing for you what you refuse to do for me? Suffice it to say, the stats I was using came from Pew.

What do you want me to source? The claim that there are problematic trends and elements in the Islamic world? How many times have we discussed the levels of fundamentalism and extremism in Islam?

Again, do you really want to make me dig up old threads just to pull your card again? I mean, you just got caught lying about what you originally claimed in this thread, so why undermine your credibility even more, while making me dig up old threads ?

 

[Grant]

How many times have we discussed the levels of fundamentalism and extremism in Islam?

It seems possible that honor killings, hanging Gays, stoning female adulterers, rape, etc, is not considered "extreme" in some political and religious circles. Many may have just assumed everyone in the western democracies felt it had to be the case that these practices were 'extreme' but many seem to be fine with it or, at a minimum, are willing to overlook these atrocities.

 

[Red_Dave]

The only one I would have a problem with would be number 3. Our education system is strained already, "adopting" children from third world countries wouldn't do it any good. They would not have to learn English (language barrier) but also it would require more schools, more teachers. The newly arrived immigrant children would put even more of a strain onto the system due to their need for extra English learning and other such needs.

Hence why I am in favour of re-introducing grammar schools, since it encourages competition which drives pupils to achieve their best potential results, it gives those from a less privileged backgrounds the opportunity to go to university and earn more money than they would have done and settle down for a comfortable lifestyle. However I do accept that it is harsh to force 11 year olds to choose whether they get that opportunity or not. Hence my preference for it to be done at the end of year 8 with year 7 in preparation alongside the normal lessons.

Hence the need to adopt them at infancy, in which case they can pick up English pretty quickly. I guess the point i was making is that if there is going to have to be immigration (for the reasons i mentioned) then international adoptees should be a priority as integration will be less of an issue. I'm with you on grammar schools but that's another thread

 

[PeteEU]

Pete, I was referencing the figures in the graph, but could you source the above?

Honor killings in India? There are at least 5000 bride burning deaths a year in India, and those are only the cases where it is official. On top of that there are many many "kitchen accidents". Add to this the other types of honor killings and you are over 6000 deaths but more likely over 10k per year.

Sadly there are few sources on factual information due to where most of the honor killings are committed. Hell the statistics often ignore bridal burnings in India as honor killings, despite it being clear that they are. Killing a bride because of a bad dowery and the disgrace the family of the groom ... come one, that is a clear honor killing. But according to most statistics, there are 5000 honor killings a year, with 1000 being in India and that does not include bridal burnings.

Statistics & Data

These stats do not include bridal burnings.

From the UN

violence against women

Dowry Deaths: In India, it is estimated that more than 5,000 women are killed each year because their in-laws consider their dowries inadequate. A tiny percentage of their murderers are brought to justice.

At least the UN admits it is an honour crime.

 

[Spriggs05]

Hence the need to adopt them at infancy, in which case they can pick up English pretty quickly. I guess the point i was making is that if there is going to have to be immigration (for the reasons i mentioned) then international adoptees should be a priority as integration will be less of an issue.

Fair enough, however they will have to have foster parents, and to be honest being adopted probably isn't the nicest of things to go through. You'd be asking questions like "Who are my real parents". It would potentially make things very awkward for the adopting family who are attempting to integrate them. However this may not be the case in some cases such as if the adoptee was black the adopters were black, the chance is that he may never know about it unless he is very intelligent. Putting a black child in with a white family I would hope would not happen but unfortunately I think that some people will end up like that, hence where the above scenario comes in.

I'm with you on grammar schools but that's another thread

Ok, it just came up as I was writing.

 

[Andalublue]

lol, clearly you agreed with it

I see. So, if I quote one opinion, then state another, it's the one I quoted that I believe, not the one I stated to be my own. That's logical.Are you debating or trolling?

What do you want me to source? The claim that there are problematic trends and elements in the Islamic world? How many times have we discussed the levels of fundamentalism and extremism in Islam?

Again, do you really want to make me dig up old threads just to pull your card again? I mean, you just got caught lying about what you originally claimed in this thread, so why undermine your credibility even more, while making me dig up old threads ?

Y'know what? Please don't bother. You don't appear to be making an argument about anything, you're merely trying to play gotcha. I really don't have a clue as to what it is you are trying to convince us of.

 

[Gardener]

The rising birthrate is down to those hordes of Polish Catholics.

I have long wondered what you called these critters en masse.

Gaggle of Geese, Pod of whales, Pride of lions, Horde of Polish Catholics.........

 

[Gardener]

How many times have we discussed the levels of fundamentalism and extremism in Islam?

I'd say at least as many times as the various apologists have denied, obfuscated, rationalized and flat out lied about it.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Honor killings in India? There are at least 5000 bride burning deaths a year in India, and those are only the cases where it is official. On top of that there are many many "kitchen accidents". Add to this the other types of honor killings and you are over 6000 deaths but more likely over 10k per year.

lol, do you even have any idea what you are talking about? Though it still happens, Sati is extremely rare by all accounts. Hell, even in British Royal India, figures don't even reflect such a high incidents of bridal burning, with only a few hundred being recorded every year

Sadly there are few sources on factual information due to where most of the honor killings are committed. Hell the statistics often ignore bridal burnings in India as honor killings, despite it being clear that they are. Killing a bride because of a bad dowery and the disgrace the family of the groom ... come one, that is a clear honor killing. But according to most statistics, there are 5000 honor killings a year, with 1000 being in India and that does not include bridal burnings.

1) Why are you claiming the numbers would not include Sati?

2) The numbers given on that page *DO NOT* support your earlier claim. You claimed the most honor killings occur among the Hindu population of India. That info graphic cites 1000 incidents in india and Pakistan each.

-india has a population of 1.2 billion, with 80% being hindu

-Pakistan has a population of 176 million with 96% of the population being muslim

Clearly these do not bear out your original claim that the highest rate of incidents occur among India's hindu population

At least the UN admits it is an honour crime.

Pete, while it's your usual MO to make claims that you can't support, then deflect from them, you stated something very specific: that the highest rate of incidents of honor killings occur among India's hindu population. This number does not prove that. What it does prove is that honor killing is an issue in india, something I never challenged.

For you to prove your actual claim, you would need to show us comparative numbers for other areas and other populations. You attempted to do this above, but your figure ironically disproved your claim

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

I see. So, if I quote one opinion, then state another, it's the one I quoted that I believe

You didn't merely quote an opinion, you presented it as if it was correct.

not the one I stated to be my own. That's logical.Are you debating or trolling?

No, that was you obviously shifting goal posts when your faulty assertion, based on an opinion piece, but debunked. It's not my fault you lack the character that would allow you 1) to admit you were wrong and 2) drives you just to defend something based on ideology alone.


Y'know what? Please don't bother. You don't appear to be making an argument about anything, you're merely trying to play gotcha. I really don't have a clue as to what it is you are trying to convince us of.

Y'know what? Please don't bother. You don't appear to be making an argument about anything, you're merely trying to play gotcha. I really don't have a clue as to what it is you are trying to convince us of.

Gotcha? No, you clearly agreed with something, presented it, got proven wrong, then tried to lie about what you clearly wrote here.

That you're so ideologically invested in this isn't my problem.

PS I was able to find the sources for your claim:

This gallup poll puts weekly, or almost weekly, US church attendance at 43%

Americans' Church Attendance Inches Up in 2010

this pew poll puts weekly mosque attendence in turkey at 44%

Chapter 2: Religious Commitment | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Though I think you'll find issue with this when we look at salat in turkey, where 42% poll as praying multiple times per day. Which tends to highlight the difficulty in measuring religousity between different cultures that likely have totally different views of religion in society. Which tends to highlight a significant difference in the degree of practice between these two groups

 

[Andalublue]

Gotcha? No, you clearly agreed with something, presented it, got proven wrong, then tried to lie about what you clearly wrote here.

That's quite funny! Self-contradiction in one line. I think we'd probably better leave things there. Do come back to me if you actually have a position to articulate, otherwise please enjoy your games of semantics.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

That's quite funny! Self-contradiction in one line.

Where is the contradiction, can you please point it out?

 

[Andalublue]

Where is the contradiction, can you please point it out?

If you can't see it then we really shouldn't continue this conversation.

 

[Grant]

Honor killings in India? There are at least 5000 bride burning deaths a year in India, and those are only the cases where it is official. On top of that there are many many "kitchen accidents". Add to this the other types of honor killings and you are over 6000 deaths but more likely over 10k per year.

Sadly there are few sources on factual information due to where most of the honor killings are committed. Hell the statistics often ignore bridal burnings in India as honor killings, despite it being clear that they are. Killing a bride because of a bad dowery and the disgrace the family of the groom ... come one, that is a clear honor killing. But according to most statistics, there are 5000 honor killings a year, with 1000 being in India and that does not include bridal burnings.

Statistics & Data

These stats do not include bridal burnings.

From the UN

violence against women



At least the UN admits it is an honour crime.

You seem to be guessing a lot about what goes on in India. Here's another link. http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

But more importantly, is it your contention that because there are honor killings taking place in India that we should look at this as normal goings on within different religious groups? Are there many Indians murdering other members of their family in Europe? It is certainly not commonplace in North America.

 

[Grant]

If you can't see it then we really shouldn't continue this conversation.

That's telling him!!!

This is a similar response to the alleged link you were referring to earlier.

 

[PeteEU]

lol, do you even have any idea what you are talking about? Though it still happens, Sati is extremely rare by all accounts. Hell, even in British Royal India, figures don't even reflect such a high incidents of bridal burning, with only a few hundred being recorded every year

LOL defending wife killers now? It is not rare, it is just not classified as Sati in the rural areas and police protect the killers. There were over 8000 Sati killings reported in 2010....

1) Why are you claiming the numbers would not include Sati?

Because they dont. The estimated bridal burnings are 8k a year alone.

2) The numbers given on that page *DO NOT* support your earlier claim. You claimed the most honor killings occur among the Hindu population of India. That info graphic cites 1000 incidents in india and Pakistan each.

It is not a claim, it is a fact. And it also occurs among the Sikh population. It actually has very little to do with religion but with tribal traditions.

-india has a population of 1.2 billion, with 80% being hindu

-Pakistan has a population of 176 million with 96% of the population being muslim

Clearly these do not bear out your original claim that the highest rate of incidents occur among India's hindu population

Never claimed that. I said that the highest incidents occur in India, which is true. These incidents occur in the north western and eastern parts mostly, and that is full of Muslims, Sikh and Hindi.

I know you hate Muslims, but islam has nothing to do with honour killings.

Pete, while it's your usual MO to make claims that you can't support, then deflect from them, you stated something very specific: that the highest rate of incidents of honor killings occur among India's hindu population. This number does not prove that. What it does prove is that honor killing is an issue in india, something I never challenged.

For you to prove your actual claim, you would need to show us comparative numbers for other areas and other populations. You attempted to do this above, but your figure ironically disproved your claim

It is not a ****ing claim, it is a fact.

Indian dowry deaths on the rise - Telegraph

In 2010, 8391 dowry death cases were reported across India, meaning a bride was burned every 90 minutes, according to statistics recently released by the National Crime Records Bureau

Not my fault that your hate for Muslims makes you blind to the horrors of other areas of the world, where tradition and religion have been mixed into a warped horror that kills many people every day.

 

[PeteEU]

You seem to be guessing a lot about what goes on in India. Here's another link. Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings :: Middle East Quarterly

But more importantly, is it your contention that because there are honor killings taking place in India that we should look at this as normal goings on within different religious groups? Are there many Indians murdering other members of their family in Europe? It is certainly not commonplace in North America.

Indian dowry deaths on the rise - Telegraph

In 2010, 8391 dowry death cases were reported across India, meaning a bride was burned every 90 minutes, according to statistics recently released by the National Crime Records Bureau.

Stop being blind to the facts. Honor killings are not exclusive to Islam or any religion but are part of age old traditions in parts of the world.

 

[Grant]

Indian dowry deaths on the rise - Telegraph

It is illegal and anyone involved in this barbaric practice should be jailed for life.

Stop being blind to the facts. Honor killings are not exclusive to Islam or any religion but are part of age old traditions in parts of the world.

What's the matter with you?? Nowhere did I say that 'honor killings are exclusive to Islam'. These barbaric customs should be criticized whenever and wherever they occur and never should they be defended by the 'others also do it also" excuse. When Muslims do it stand up against it and do the same whenever other religions commit these crimes against women and minorities.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

If you can't see it then we really shouldn't continue this conversation.

Why not just point it out? I'm honestly curious here

 

[PeteEU]

It is illegal and anyone involved in this barbaric practice should be jailed for life.

And guess what.. they do if caught and convicted.

What's the matter with you?? Nowhere did I say that 'honor killings are exclusive to Islam'. These barabaric customs should be criticized whenever and wherever they occur and never should they be defended by the 'others also do it also" defense. When Muslims do it stand up against it and the same whenever other religions commit the same crimes against women and minorities.

It is illegal in pretty much all Muslim countries, but killing off such traditions is pretty hard. It took 100 years from the banning of witch burnings in Europe and America before the practice died out, and you expect that honor killings, legal until half a century or so ago, will disappear over night? Get real for **** sake. But we get it, you hate Muslims and Islam.. and blame them for all the ills of the world.