Is ubridled immigration really good for the UK??

[PeteEU]

Pete, if I was in your shoes, i would probably do some soul searching prior to casting stones about mindless ideologues

So you deny it then?

Which might bring into question their value as immigrants

Because 99% are not immigrants. They are the spouse of an immigrant, and have never had the intention of getting a job. But because of the British system, if you are registered as unemployed, then you can get benefits from the state. So these immigrant women from the Middle East, know that they can milk the system by declaring their interest in getting a job, when the chances of them actually getting one is about as big as winning the lottery.

this is a rather bizarre argument considering the popularity of these movements in their home country

Popularity of such groups goes up and down depending on the economic situation and other crisis. The BNP, UKIP and such parties had a damn hard time getting anything done before the economic crisis. Now that there is a crisis, they are getting more followers because it is easier to blame the non white, non Christian for your problems, because they look and act differently. They are protest groups, who live and die depending on the situation of the protest they are involved in. Some evolve..if we are really unlucky.

Pete, you just blamed well noted ideological trends within immigrant communities, that can be traced back to their home country, on brits. You can't do that in the same breath where you're making some claim to fact and truth.

I did nothing of the sort. I blamed a social phenomenon going back to the time of the caveman, where people group together to ward off attacks from outsiders.

 

[PeteEU]

Here's a very well-argued and nuanced explanation of the issue. There appear to be many factors at play but the one that doesn't appear to feature is the influence of religious belief. It also shows that about twice as many British Muslim women would like to work than actually do. What's stopping them? Well, the same things that are stopping everyone else who is unemployed from getting a job, plus the effects of culture and racism. Cultural issues that mean Muslim women of child-bearing age are less educated and Muslim mums less able to use child-care facilities. Racism, because discrimination still exists.

I dont disagree, but I was only talking about new immigrants of the Muslim faith. The women who were born in the UK are a whole different matter.

 

[Spriggs05]

However if we except that there have to be limits (which i agree with wholeheartedly) then we should be free to determine those limits ourselves and should prioritize

A Those that we need:

1 People with skills that we lack

2 Rich and/or gifted students: lets face it if we won't fund our education system we may as leave it to the Saudis and Chinese

3 International adoptees (third world countries have too many chilldren, we have too few, kinda a no brainer)

B Those that need to come here:

1 Those fleeing persecution

2 Those in a particularly dire situation back home.

The only one I would have a problem with would be number 3. Our education system is strained already, "adopting" children from third world countries wouldn't do it any good. They would not have to learn English (language barrier) but also it would require more schools, more teachers. The newly arrived immigrant children would put even more of a strain onto the system due to their need for extra English learning and other such needs.

Hence why I am in favour of re-introducing grammar schools, since it encourages competition which drives pupils to achieve their best potential results, it gives those from a less privileged backgrounds the opportunity to go to university and earn more money than they would have done and settle down for a comfortable lifestyle. However I do accept that it is harsh to force 11 year olds to choose whether they get that opportunity or not. Hence my preference for it to be done at the end of year 8 with year 7 in preparation alongside the normal lessons.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Pete and I share some opinions. It's foolish to believe we agree on everything. Responding to his post in the way I did made no reference to 'ideological trends'. I think what he and you may be referring to are what I'd describe as cultural practices that migrants bring with them. Calling those 'ideological' is innaccurate. I wouldn't describe US attitudes to gun ownership as 'ideological', they are cultural.

1) No, I am talking about the ideological views that are tied into these demographic

2) I'm not sure you can separate religion from culture here. if we were talking about sociaties that were more secular in nature that would make sense, but islam is pretty central to these groups cultural identity

Custom and practice over generations is a much stronger force for determining behaviour than ideology. I'd say ideology requires a conscious effort to impose a specific rationale upon behaviour. The cultural practices we're discussing here are based on centuries of collective behaviour, not the concerted imposition of a specific code. Why else would attitudes towards gender roles be so similar in widely disparate religious communities that happen to co-exist in the same geographical areas. Pakistani Muslim cultural attitudes bear a very, very strong resemblance to Hindu and Sikh attitudes. Why would that be when they don't share religious or political systems?

from the figures I recall seeing the issue was particularly troubling in the areas I mentioned above, including turkey. India had about half the numbers of working age women outside the work force.

So there goes that theory ...

PS maybe try discussing the topic as apposed to automatically jumping into some "defense of Islam" mentality

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

So you deny it then?

1) lol, Pete, my response was highlighting the fact that you're cut from the same cloth. You just line up on the opposite side of the isle

2) Secondly, you replied to a post that had nothing to do with it

3) there are elements within the American right, like you describe, but as usual you over generalize (just like those you decry)

Because 99% are not immigrants. They are the spouse of an immigrant, and have never had the intention of getting a job. But because of the British system, if you are registered as unemployed, then you can get benefits from the state. So these immigrant women from the Middle East, know that they can milk the system by declaring their interest in getting a job, when the chances of them actually getting one is about as big as winning the lottery.

You seem to be making a distinction without a difference here

Popularity of such groups goes up and down depending on the economic situation and other crisis. The BNP, UKIP and such parties had a damn hard time getting anything done before the economic crisis. Now that there is a crisis, they are getting more followers because it is easier to blame the non white, non Christian for your problems, because they look and act differently. They are protest groups, who live and die depending on the situation of the protest they are involved in. Some evolve..if we are really unlucky.

Unfortunately for you and your pet theory these attitudes are widely adopted in their place of origin and predate the recent economic crisis.

I did nothing of the sort. I blamed a social phenomenon going back to the time of the caveman, where people group together to ward off attacks from outsiders.

Pete, the problem is all evidence points to such attitudes being imported along with these immigrants. That is what makes your argument so silly, and just reinforces my remarks about you being an ideologue

 

[Andalublue]

1) No, I am talking about the ideological views that are tied into these demographic

Which are?

2) I'm not sure you can separate religion from culture here. if we were talking about sociaties that were more secular in nature that would make sense, but islam is pretty central to these groups cultural identity

from the figures I recall seeing the issue was particularly troubling in the areas I mentioned above, including turkey. India had about half the numbers of working age women outside the work force.

So there goes that theory ...

You might like to do some research and prove your point rather than assert it, although the bolded part of your statement makes no sense. The point is that many of the so-called 'ideological trends' you keep referring to are common to south Asian cultures regardless of their religious affiliation.

PS maybe try discussing the topic as apposed to automatically jumping into some "defense of Islam" mentality

I'm not defending Islam, I'm just not seeing a Moslem Boogeyman where one doesn't exist. Now then, you're being rather mealy-mouthed about it, what 'ideological trends' do you have in mind anyway?

 

[Andalublue]

Pete, the problem is all evidence points to such attitudes being imported along with these immigrants.

Until you start presenting some, you might like to refrain from constantly banging on about evidence.

 

[PeteEU]

You seem to be making a distinction without a difference here

There is certainly a difference between if the women we are talking about are first generation or 2nd and onwards.. a huge difference. And since I have been talking (based on the thread) on first generation, then there is a clear difference. First generation Muslim immigrant women are part of the "package", not an individual in a huge portion of cases.

Unfortunately for you and your pet theory these attitudes are widely adopted in their place of origin and predate the recent economic crisis.

It is not a pet theory, it is a well documented fact. Ever heard of Hitler? Do you really think that he would have been able to get elected, let alone seized power if the economic situation in Germany was booming? Would the Tea Party have ever existed if it had not been for the economic melt down and the possible election of a black/female president? Time and time again through out history, radical groups/people have come to political power on the bandwagon on a crisis. Hell one could claim that even Roosevelt came to power based on this... only difference was that he was not as radical as so many others.

Pete, the problem is all evidence points to such attitudes being imported along with these immigrants. That is what makes your argument so silly, and just reinforces my remarks about you being an ideologue

Imported? LOL now that is original. Are you seriously saying that these immigrants are the only ones in the UK that have such attitudes of tribe and sticking together with "your own kind"? Seriously? Where have you been the last 2000+ years. Hell the US is ripe with such areas and attitudes. You have whole parts of cities where certain types of peoples live almost exclusively, and you are seriously trying to say that it is the immigrants that are at fault? It is freaking human nature!

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

You might like to do some research and prove your point rather than assert it, although the bolded part of your statement makes no sense. The point is that many of the so-called 'ideological trends' you keep referring to are common to south Asian cultures regardless of their religious affiliation.

But they are trends that also exist in islamic countries outside of SA culture, and do not exist to the degree in other SA cultures that we see with those with strong islamic traditions.

Worklessness by gender and country of birth | Poverty Indicators | London's Poverty Report

I'm not defending Islam, I'm just not seeing a Moslem Boogeyman where one doesn't exist.

Exactly, you reduce all talk on the subject to "Moslem Boogeymen", as opposed to considering the issues with these demographic groups

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

There is certainly a difference between if the women we are talking about are first generation or 2nd and onwards.. a huge difference. And since I have been talking (based on the thread) on first generation, then there is a clear difference. First generation Muslim immigrant women are part of the "package", not an individual in a huge portion of cases.

Your distinction above was based on these people being brought here as the spouses of immigrants. That's a distinction without a difference when discussing immigrants, immigrant benefits, and the impact immigrants have

It is not a pet theory, it is a well documented fact. Ever heard of Hitler?

Pete, again, the problem with your theory is that these attitudes are not unique to the UK, but are rampant in the homelands of these immigrants and easily predate the recent economic crisis.. So to say they formed as a reaction to xenophobic brits, who themselves were inspired by the recent economic crisis, makes no sense

Imported? LOL now that is original. Are you seriously saying that these immigrants are the only ones in the UK that have such attitudes of tribe and sticking together with "your own kind"?

No, in fact, nothing I wrote even came close to suggesting that. What I did was underline the absurdity of these groups developing these attitudes as a reaction to right wing groups in the UK.

Secondly, I am unsure of the attitude that promotes importing a new bread of xenophobes, because elements of the British population have similar views.

 

[PeteEU]

You might like to do some research and prove your point rather than assert it, although the bolded part of your statement makes no sense. The point is that many of the so-called 'ideological trends' you keep referring to are common to south Asian cultures regardless of their religious affiliation.

And African cultures, both Christian, Athiest and Muslim.. and South and Central American cultures.. and even some parts of the US... the Amish for example, or the child sex cult in Utah/Texas. Heck it use to be quite common in Spain before Franco died and women were elevated from second class sex slaves to actual citizens.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Until you start presenting some, you might like to refrain from constantly banging on about evidence.

do we really need to cover the prevalence of extremism and fundamentalism in the Islamic world? because I know for a fact we discussed the figures before

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

And African cultures, both Christian, Athiest and Muslim.. and South and Central American cultures.. and even some parts of the US... the Amish for example, or the child sex cult in Utah/Texas. Heck it use to be quite common in Spain before Franco died and women were elevated from second class sex slaves to actual citizens.

Yet we are only seeing such a large issue with countries that are predominately islamic ....

Look, I get it, some people see islam as the ultimate evil, others like to act as if there is no connection between it and the various issues within the islamic world. Ironically, both groups seem to have a rather dysfunctional view of the world

 

[Andalublue]

But they are trends that also exist in islamic countries outside of SA culture, and do not exist to the degree in other SA cultures that we see with those with strong islamic traditions.

That's not what that report shows. All the south Asian countries are in the top bracket. It's no surprise that those with the worst figures just happen to be the poorest countries.

 

[Andalublue]

do we really need to cover the prevalence of extremism and fundamentalism in the Islamic world? because I know for a fact we discussed the figures before

Yes, you bring them up all the time, you just never present the data.

 

[PeteEU]

Your distinction above was based on these people being brought here as the spouses of immigrants. That's a distinction without a difference when discussing immigrants, immigrant benefits, and the impact immigrants have

Because they are.... Do you really think that it is the women that come up to the UK for jobs? HAHAHAHA... talk about being out of touch. Why would these women go to the UK for jobs when they have no education and never had a job in their homeland? Come on..

Pete, again, the problem with your theory is that these attitudes are not unique to the UK, but are rampant in the homelands of these immigrants and easily predate the recent economic crisis.. So to say they formed as a reaction to xenophobic brits, who themselves were inspired by the recent economic crisis, makes no sense

What you wrote there makes no sense what so ever. Are you seriously suggesting that these immigrants come to the UK just to piss off the local population and create conflict?

No, in fact, nothing I wrote even came close to suggesting that. What I did was underline the absurdity of these groups developing these attitudes as a reaction to right wing groups in the UK.

Again you just dont get it. They have those attitudes because they feel like they are under attack.. and they are under attack from the right wing racists, so it is more than just a "feeling". When under attack, people tend to group up for defence.

That is why the whole attack against Islam thing the radicals love promoting is so dangerous.... it is one thing fighting radicals and terrorists, but if they can form the message into it is an attack on Islam, then the whole Islamic world will fall in behind them. Thankfully killing their own has dented that course of action.. for now at least.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Yes, you bring them up all the time, you just never present the data.

lol, no, I have presented data numerous times. if you want, I'll go dig up old threads where we actually discuss such.

But the point of having to do so is lost on me

 

[PeteEU]

Yet we are only seeing such a large issue with countries that are predominately islamic ....

No we are not.. it is more in the media sure, but hardly unique. The country with the most honor killings is India, among the hindu populations. But we rarely hear about those killings do we now..

Look, I get it, some people see islam as the ultimate evil, others like to act as if there is no connection between it and the various issues within the islamic world. Ironically, both groups seem to have a rather dysfunctional view of the world

Yes some people on the right and especially in the US and UK. They have a very twisted view of the world, based on domination of others. They are in many ways no different than the radical Islamists they are supposedly fighting against.. in fact I would say they are worse because they have their fingers in everything and are not isolated like the radical islamists.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

That's not what that report shows. All the south Asian countries are in the top bracket. It's no surprise that those with the worst figures just happen to be the poorest countries.

Are we looking at the same chart? The first four countries listed are all islamic, not SA. Somalia ranks last with close to 90% of the women being outside the work force. Next is Bangladesh with closer to 80%, followed by Pakistan, which is a few points behind, then turkey near 70%.

The Next three countries are Sri Lanka, Portugal, and India, with numbers at about 55%, 50% and 45%

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

What you wrote there makes no sense what so ever. Are you seriously suggesting that these immigrants come to the UK just to piss off the local population and create conflict?

Pro-tip, if you're going to toss out some absurd straw man, at least try to make it semi-relevant to what I wrote

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

No we are not.. it is more in the media sure, but hardly unique. The country with the most honor killings is India, among the hindu populations. But we rarely hear about those killings do we now..

Pete, I was referencing the figures in the graph, but could you source the above?

 

[Andalublue]

Are we looking at the same chart? The first four countries listed are all islamic, not SA. Somalia ranks last with close to 90% of the women being outside the work force. Next is Bangladesh with closer to 80%, followed by Pakistan, which is a few points behind, then turkey near 70%.

The Next three countries are Sri Lanka, Portugal, and India, with numbers at about 55%, 50% and 45%

So, excluding Somalia, as every comparative study of anything must, out of the top 6 countries in the survey, all but one were south Asian; two majority Moslem, one majority Hindu and one majority Buddhist. The common factor here appears to be geographical rather than religious. You'll also notice that the M/F disparity, as opposed to just the general level, is similar in the south Asian countries and very different with the Portuguese bars.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

So, excluding Somalia, as every comparative study of anything must, out of the top 6 countries in the survey, all but one were south Asian

Wait, when did Portugal and Turkey become South Asian? Also, are we purposely ignoring the degree and disparity between the numbers?

Wait, of course we are~!!!

 

[Andalublue]

Wait, when did Turkey become South Asian? Also, are we purposely ignoring the degree and disparity between the numbers?

Wait, of course we are~!!!

No, you're just convinced it shows something that it doesn't show.

You also seem to be making the correlation=causation fallacy. So, not only is this a common problem across South Asia regardless of religion, the causes of it are completely unaddressed. Can you explain, for example, why the disparity in unemployment between men and women in the USA, thought to be a nation of gender equality, should be hugely greater than that of Italy, quite infamous for its sexism and anti-feminism? Could we conclude that it's because the USA is a predominantly protestant country and Italy overwhelmingly catholic? If not, why not?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

No, you're just convinced it shows something that it doesn't show.

I'm not the one making silly claims about it, though (like turkey and portugal are part of SA)

You also seem to be making the correlation=causation fallacy.

for me to be commitinting the above fallacy i would need to rely on the simple fact that this grouping just happened to be islamic. The problem is though I keep referencing trends and attitudes within islam, as well

So, not only is this a common problem across South Asia regardless of religion, the causes of it are completely unaddressed.

Again, the countries in question are not exclusive to SA. Second, there is a clear disparity in the numbers concerning the SA countries

Can you explain, for example, why the disparity in unemployment between men and women in the USA, thought to be a nation of gender equality, should be hugely greater than that of Italy, quite infamous for its sexism and anti-feminism? Could we conclude that it's because the USA is a predominantly protestant country and Italy overwhelmingly catholic? If not, why not?

the graph isn't measuring unemployment in these countries. They are national groups *from* these countries

"Working-age adults in London not in paid work by gender and country of birth"

Second, do either of those countries represent the same degree of religious adherence as we have in places like Somalia, Turkey, Pakistan, and Bangladesh? And does either country widely embrace a religious ideology that one would would expect to impact the number of women in the work force?