Is ubridled immigration really good for the UK??

[Gardener]

What do you think it is about the United States that encourages people to integrate more?

The fact we are an entire nation of immigrants, and the notion of citizenship involves becoming an American. The shared attitudes that people WILL adopt a new culture leads to people doing so -- this as opposed to the multiculturalist approach where the assumptions are that the cultures will remain more distinct.

 

[German guy]

No, sorry. The USA has a constant influx of chinese and they gravitate to Chinatowns all across the nation. As newcomers they retain their language and find English as hard to master as would an English speaker trying to adapt to Cantonese, or Mandarin. Residing in a community where they can find fellow immigrants is understandable.

That's the case in many "ghettos" if you are using the term as a gathering-place for people sharing a similar culture. But if you live here, and frequent places to dine or shop in Chinatown, you'd find many who do speak english. Most of their second and third generation residents are fluent in both. Go further down the generational chain and you'll find english becoming the primary and chinese a weakened secondary language until you get to a point where the kids can't speak more than a few words of whichever chinese dialect their grandparents used.

You also fail to realize that chinese don't all speak the same language, there are several dialects and they find it difficult if not impossible to communicate with each other unless they also speak mandarin or one of the main dialects. English becomes the bridging language after generational residence in the USA.

The same goes for many minorities in the US. People from the Indian Sub-continent gravitate into ghettos, Latin-Americans into their own locales, etc. Eventually they learn enough english to work here, and their children become fluent.

Again, the people you see sticking to their old language are either recent immigrants, or those who came previously and were too old and set to change their ways. There are even many who come just to make some money and then return to China (or Mexico, Honduras, India, w/e) wealthier for it.

Don't know about the UK, but I think it's exactly the same in Germany. Just like you say. The immigrants *do* integrate and assimilate (as for EU foreigners, you usually don't even realize they're immigrants, East Asians usually fit in very well and the large number of Turkish integrate along the lines you describe, which take some time).

Maybe the biggest difference is that immigration is a relatively new thing for Germans (not before ca. the 1950s/60s), and the idea that nationality is not tied to blood is relatively new for Germans too. That's why there maybe is more chauvinism on the side of Germans to really accept immigrants and to tolerate the problems of a rocky path to immigration.

Certain American professional Muslim-haters then mistake this native German opposition to Muslim immigrants (which is both factually wrong as the integration if mostly successful, despite all problems and shortcomings, and just an expression of German ethnic chauvinism) as a proof for the absurd claim that immigration or "multiculturalism" is failing in Germany, and/or somehow fundamentally different here than in the US.

 

[German guy]

Oh, and I don't think Germany's approach is "multiculturalism" ... it's more or less consensus that immigrants have to respect our Constitution, its values and our law.

Anti-constitutional groups popular among the immigrant fringe, such as islamists, are observed and infiltrated by the Verfassungsschutz ("Office for the Protection of the Constitution") alongside neo-Nazis and radical leftists. And no immigrant ever can cite cultural differences as excuse when he's on court after breaking the law (at least I've never heard of such a case in Germany).

Everything else, what they eat, how they dress, which language they speak at home -- that is what "multiculturalists" mean when they say "multiculturalism". I've never heard a German "multiculturalist" suggesting our law shouldn't apply to them.

 

[German guy]

Ok Red Dave...

Are you feeling OK with the gross implications of a mixed population??

To answer the OP: I think "unbridled" immigration is not good for any country.

But I can't think of any Western country that actually allows unbridled immigration.

Sure, many EU countries allow "unbridled" immigration within the EU member countries, but I've not seen that this poses any serious problems and at least in my experience in Berlin, EU immigrants are way too similar to native Germans to even be considered "immigrants" (I think whenever someone mentions problems with "immigrants", they don't mean EU immigrants, as they fit more into the "tourist"/"exchange student"/"temporary employee" category in the minds of most).

And as for non-EU immigrants, such as Turkish who may or may not be Muslim to some extent, as well as asylum seekers, immigration and asylum laws have been tightened very much in the 1990s.

It certainly posed some problems that the West-German government invited hundreds of thousands of Turkish "guest workers" in the 1960s/70s, who had neither much education nor money, as a new "underclass" for cheap labor, without really assuming they'd stay. I think many problems that still exist with that group can rather be explained and addressed with a social approach rather than a cultural.

That's why I think a good immigration policy should not avoid "cherry picking" immigrants (like the US mostly does, with Green Card etc) -- when you focus on those who have either good education and/or money to bring with them, there will not many problems regarding immigration.

 

[wolfie]

To answer the OP: I think "unbridled" immigration is not good for any country.

But I can't think of any Western country that actually allows unbridled immigration.

Sure, many EU countries allow "unbridled" immigration within the EU member countries, but I've not seen that this poses any serious problems and at least in my experience in Berlin, EU immigrants are way too similar to native Germans to even be considered "immigrants" (I think whenever someone mentions problems with "immigrants", they don't mean EU immigrants, as they fit more into the "tourist"/"exchange student"/"temporary employee" category in the minds of most).

And as for non-EU immigrants, such as Turkish who may or may not be Muslim to some extent, as well as asylum seekers, immigration and asylum laws have been tightened very much in the 1990s.

It certainly posed some problems that the West-German government invited hundreds of thousands of Turkish "guest workers" in the 1960s/70s, who had neither much education nor money, as a new "underclass" for cheap labor, without really assuming they'd stay. I think many problems that still exist with that group can rather be explained and addressed with a social approach rather than a cultural.

That's why I think a good immigration policy should not avoid "cherry picking" immigrants (like the US mostly does, with Green Card etc) -- when you focus on those who have either good education and/or money to bring with them, there will not many problems regarding immigration.

Our government has already admitted that they have lost control of our immigration figures!!

They have absolutely no idea..they have resorted to tactics such as..

Immigrants 'Go Home' Ads Spark Legal Threat

Absolutely ridiculous..

 

[Arcana XV]

Based on what? Immigration to Europe is a relative new thing, where as in the US it is quite old. Sure the older the ethnic minority is, the better integrated they are, but it takes time. It took almost 100 years for Irish Catholics to be some what accepted.. and that took the election of a Catholic President to do.

In Europe we are still in the 1st generation cycle, meaning the original wave is still alive and dictating quite a bit. Sure it gets better and better with each generation and they get more and more integrated, but it takes time and wont improve much before the first wave dies off. This is especially evident with immigration from North Africa and Turkey, where we sadly got a lot of the worst backward peoples of those 2 areas. Once the first generation dies off, and the next generations are not forced to live by ideas that are not even practice in their homeland any more.. then we shall see progress.

I agree that immigration into Europe is a more recent phenomenon. Up until not so long ago, we were the ones leaving these shores for the New World. That's not where we disagree. Where we don't see eye to eye is in pinpointing differences on how the US and Europe deal with the various immigration waves.

There was a time when most European countries were so set in their ways, it was extremely difficult for outsiders to fit in. Governments did nothing to facilitate the process and basically left immigrants at the mercy of society to fend for themselves. Kind of like your example with the first wave of Irish immigrants in the US. To this day, it's by no means easy to be accepted into most European societies. No matter how long you've been here or how well integrated you are, people will never let you forget that you don't really belong. Now, it seems some European governments have reversed the trend and taken it to the other extreme of being too tolerant with the new arrivals to the point of making the locals feel like they're being invaded by cultures that are alien to them. In some isolated cases, the locals are driven out and the foreign cultures take over. That's a recipe for disaster.

In the US immigrants are expected to find their place in the melting pot and if they make the effort to learn the local language and are hard working, law abiding individuals, they'll quickly feel at home. In a nation of immigrants, no immigrant is an outsider for very long. The different cultures eventually blend in, in a way that I've never seen happen anywhere in Europe. And yes I do realize this doesn't happen overnight and that each new wave of immigrants will face challenges.

 

[Wiggen]

Why is "multiculturalism" bad for the UK and Europe but just fine for Canada and the US?

We are not a multi-cultural society. We are a country where many cultures exist but as part of the whole, not as separate entities.

 

[Wiggen]

Sorry but that is not the facts on the ground. Chinese have been in the US in large numbers since the early 1800s. They should have by now integrated, but we both know that they are not. But it does not bother anyone because they keep to themselves and as long as they supply the America public with Chinese food and sweatshops, then American society allows it . If you look at a map of the US where people of Chinese heritage live, then they are isolated to 4 or 5 major areas in the US.. 4 on the west coast and 1 on the east coast. The rest have very little Chinese (relative) living there.

The same goes for many minorities in the US.



On this we can agree some what... and then again. When there are vast areas to migrate too people tend to migrate to areas where they dont stick out. Hence you theory falls apart, since a new Hispanic migrant will tend to go to areas with fellow Spanish speaking migrants, just as a refugee from Haiti will flock to other Haitians, and Cuban will head to Florida or Southern California.

A Hispanic migrating to say Iowa would stick out like a sore thumb and that would make both sides feel uncomfortable. Even to this day, there are plenty of areas in the US where having a black person move in will make house prices fall..

Integration takes time.. many many generations and that is only if they want to integrate. And Europe's immigration wave is not even 40 years old, so we are still dealing with first generation issues, let alone 2nd and 3rd... where as the US is in 5+th generation in their major minorities.

I live in a state where an overwhelmingly white population elected a man of Chinese parentage as our Governor. Twice. He's now the U.S. ambassador to China. I'd say he and his family assimilated quite well, wouldn't you? Once more you have proven your basic ignorance of life in the United States.

Gary Locke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[clownboy]

Trace most Americans' ancestry and you'll find the majority of us are mutts, Heinz 57. We mix the paint, a lot.

 

[Rainman05]

Why is "multiculturalism" bad for the UK and Europe but just fine for Canada and the US?

Because multiculturalism in Europe is not the same. it's just a method of diluting national identity for the purpose of creating a cheaper, superficial version of what it means to be "european" for the purpose of integraing that cheaper, superficial notion into what is the EU.

 

[German guy]

Because multiculturalism in Europe is not the same. it's just a method of diluting national identity for the purpose of creating a cheaper, superficial version of what it means to be "european" for the purpose of integraing that cheaper, superficial notion into what is the EU.

Considering how nationalism opens the door for abuse in favor of behavior that in the best case is silly, in the worst case is murderous, I applaud that.

Nationalism is a relatively recent construct. It was suited for a larger world in the 19th century, when travelling around the world in 80 days was considered science fiction, before phone, internet and other means for instant communication were invented, before airplanes and fast automobiles shortened the distance to travel from one place to another, and before trade and mass movement of people between the countries was common -- today's world is shrinking, so national states in Europe become small, too small for our needs. We need larger frames now. That's just a result of progress.

 

[Rainman05]

Considering how nationalism opens the door for abuse in favor of behavior that in the best case is silly, in the worst case is murderous, I applaud that.

Nationalism is a relatively recent construct. It was suited for a larger world in the 19th century, when travelling around the world in 80 days was considered science fiction, before phone, internet and other means for instant communication were invented, before airplanes and fast automobiles shortened the distance to travel from one place to another, and before trade and mass movement of people between the countries was common -- today's world is shrinking, so national states in Europe become small, too small for our needs. We need larger frames now. That's just a result of progress.

There are many kinds of nationalism. Just because one the itterations of nationalism didn't pan out well doesn't mean that the idea has no merit to it.

I understand the idea of a larger frame. I just don't understand why, now that we have all this technology and understanding, can't we do it properly? instead of fooling ourselves with this failure of a multiculturalism program. If you walk accross Europe, from west to east, you see the most diverse continent on the planet. From Portugesse national customs that are different than that of the Spanish, to the French, British, German, Italian, Croat, Czech, Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Russian and all the other dozens I forgot to mention.

The smallest continent with the largest cultural diversity. Why can't we work on this?
I can grasp even the sub-cultures that actually exist and give a sort of flavor to the national one. Like Hindu's in England whom have integrated properly, for the most part, in British life.
Welsh. Scottish. Irish. All of them part of what it is to be British and are/can give in as much as they benefit from it.

Or the Breton culture in France, which is very different from the rest of France. I know, I have relatives there. Or the Basque in Spain. Heck, I'll say it, even the gypsy.

 

[German guy]

There are many kinds of nationalism. Just because one the itterations of nationalism didn't pan out well doesn't mean that the idea has no merit to it.

I agree that an idea of collective identity has merits, as it allows solidarity between different kinds of people within a certain frame. But that doesn't have to be the classic national state.

I understand the idea of a larger frame. I just don't understand why, now that we have all this technology and understanding, can't we do it properly? instead of fooling ourselves with this failure of a multiculturalism program. If you walk accross Europe, from west to east, you see the most diverse continent on the planet. From Portugesse national customs that are different than that of the Spanish, to the French, British, German, Italian, Croat, Czech, Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Russian and all the other dozens I forgot to mention.

Oh, I totally disagree that Europe is the most diverse continent on the planet. There is arguably much more diversity in the national state of India, or on the African continent. I guess it's only outgroup-homogeneity-bias that makes us think other continents are less diverse -- and this requires the realization that we in Europe are somehow closer to each other compared to others. When you take similarities for granted, you don't see them clearly and the remaining differences appear bigger than they actually are.

And in fact, when I look at other cultural regions/civilizations, such as the Muslim world, East Asia, sub-saharan Africa ... it seems obvious to me how similar we Europeans are to each other, compared to these other cultures and regions. We are all Western. All our national cultures are based on Greek-Roman ancient heritage, Christianity and later Enlightenment. We share the same political values since the fall of the Iron Curtain. We all watch the same movies and drink the same Coke. Considering this, the cultural differences between different EU countries seems rather superficial to me.

At least that's my impression about Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, UK and Poland ... but I can't imagine Romania and the Balkans are totally and fundamentally different in these regards.

The smallest continent with the largest cultural diversity. Why can't we work on this?
I can grasp even the sub-cultures that actually exist and give a sort of flavor to the national one. Like Hindu's in England whom have integrated properly, for the most part, in British life.
Welsh. Scottish. Irish. All of them part of what it is to be British and are/can give in as much as they benefit from it.

Or the Breton culture in France, which is very different from the rest of France. I know, I have relatives there. Or the Basque in Spain. Heck, I'll say it, even the gypsy.

So ... you think diversity is a problem when the frame transcends the national state, but you think even extreme diversity is no problem within a national state? How so? If diversity makes a European frame unfeasible, why doesn't it make a national British or Spanish identity unfeasible as well?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of replacing national or regional identities. I just don't see why adding another layer is a bad thing. I'm a proud Berlin citizen and love my home city, but this doesn't stand in the way of feeling German or European as well, for me.

 

[Rainman05]

I agree that an idea of collective identity has merits, as it allows solidarity between different kinds of people within a certain frame. But that doesn't have to be the classic national state.



Oh, I totally disagree that Europe is the most diverse continent on the planet. There is arguably much more diversity in the national state of India, or on the African continent. I guess it's only outgroup-homogeneity-bias that makes us think other continents are less diverse -- and this requires the realization that we in Europe are somehow closer to each other compared to others. When you take similarities for granted, you don't see them clearly and the remaining differences appear bigger than they actually are.

And in fact, when I look at other cultural regions/civilizations, such as the Muslim world, East Asia, sub-saharan Africa ... it seems obvious to me how similar we Europeans are to each other, compared to these other cultures and regions. We are all Western. All our national cultures are based on Greek-Roman ancient heritage, Christianity and later Enlightenment. We share the same political values since the fall of the Iron Curtain. We all watch the same movies and drink the same Coke. Considering this, the cultural differences between different EU countries seems rather superficial to me.

At least that's my impression about Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, UK and Poland ... but I can't imagine Romania and the Balkans are totally and fundamentally different in these regards.



So ... you think diversity is a problem when the frame transcends the national state, but you think even extreme diversity is no problem within a national state? How so? If diversity makes a European frame unfeasible, why doesn't it make a national British or Spanish identity unfeasible as well?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of replacing national or regional identities. I just don't see why adding another layer is a bad thing. I'm a proud Berlin citizen and love my home city, but this doesn't stand in the way of feeling German or European as well, for me.

Hey. so I have company now, I'll get back to you this evening. Don't think I've forgotten . You raise a few good points, can't wait to discuss them.

 

[Artevelde]

Considering how nationalism opens the door for abuse in favor of behavior that in the best case is silly, in the worst case is murderous, I applaud that.

Nationalism is a relatively recent construct. It was suited for a larger world in the 19th century, when travelling around the world in 80 days was considered science fiction, before phone, internet and other means for instant communication were invented, before airplanes and fast automobiles shortened the distance to travel from one place to another, and before trade and mass movement of people between the countries was common -- today's world is shrinking, so national states in Europe become small, too small for our needs. We need larger frames now. That's just a result of progress.

I disagree. Nationalism is actually an even more potent force today, precisely because globalisation and the rapid changes and unstability it brings about strengthens the need for a strong nationally based community to serve a an achor and source of solidarity. Besides, if you look at recent European history then more and more nations seek their own state.

 

[PeteEU]

Because multiculturalism in Europe is not the same. it's just a method of diluting national identity for the purpose of creating a cheaper, superficial version of what it means to be "european" for the purpose of integraing that cheaper, superficial notion into what is the EU.

You mean like how the hispanic's are diluting the national identity of the US, by turning Spanish into the most spoken language within the next decade or two? Or turning the US into a roman catholic nation?

 

[Artevelde]

You mean like how the hispanic's are diluting the national identity of the US, by turning Spanish into the most spoken language within the next decade or two? Or turning the US into a roman catholic nation?

Neither of those things is going to happen.

 

[PeteEU]

I live in a state where an overwhelmingly white population elected a man of Chinese parentage as our Governor. Twice. He's now the U.S. ambassador to China. I'd say he and his family assimilated quite well, wouldn't you? Once more you have proven your basic ignorance of life in the United States.

Gary Locke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes his family did it seems, so what? Does not change the fact that most Chinese (not all) live in concentrated areas of the US.

 

[PeteEU]

We are not a multi-cultural society. We are a country where many cultures exist but as part of the whole, not as separate entities.

So the whole of the US celebrates Ramadan, Kings day and so on? Do you have the day off on El Eid just as you have on Christmas? How about Chinese New Year.. is that a national holiday?

 

[PeteEU]

Neither of those things is going to happen.

So you dispute basic demographics? Within the next 2 decades "whites" will be a minority. That means Roman Catholics will become the dominant religion, since most Latinos are Roman Catholics.

 

[Artevelde]

So you dispute basic demographics? Within the next 2 decades "whites" will be a minority. That means Roman Catholics will become the dominant religion, since most Latinos are Roman Catholics.

This has very little to do with demographics and besides, demographic evolutions don't follow a predictable line over the long term.

Within two decades there will still be many more people in the US speaking English (or what passes for it) then people speaking Spanish (or what passes for it). And while the number of Roman Catholics may grow, it is very unlikely they will constitute an overall majority of all Christians, let alone of the whole population in the US.

 

[PeteEU]

Godammit. Sorry, Pete, I had a whole reply typed up that addressed most of your post and the browser at work ate it all up. I HATE internet explorer. I'm just going to address the more relevant parts to what started as your exchange with Gardener, because I'm short on time now.

hihihi

The way I see it, there is a difference. Multiculturalism = two or more cultures coexisting side by side and encouraging each culture to remain separate. Melting Pot = two or more cultures mixing up to create a brand new culture that borrows a little from each.

And I dont see a difference at all because in the so called melting pot of the US, cultures are coexisting side by side, far far far more than creating a new culture that borrows a little from each other. Lets put it this way... name one thing that the US as a whole has borrowed from another culture with in the last 200 years as their own?

For example the Chinese. They have been part of US society for 200+ years, and yet if it was a true melting pot, Chinese New Year.. the biggest day in Chinese society, would be an important part of US society... It aint. If it was a true melting pot, then the traditions of the Catholic faith would be far more integrated into US society.. like having their "Christmas" in January. It aint.

Fact is, the melting pot traditions of the US, were created at the start by the original settlers and is basically thanksgiving. Other than that, they imported the Christian traditions from non-Catholic parts of Europe and follow them today with very few add-ons or changes. So the "melting pot" idea in the US happened at the start with a limited amount of things to melt, and ever since that has been dominant with other traditions and ethnic minorities being allowed some what to do what they want in their small enclaves around the country. It was not long ago that Jewish traditions were banned in public in many areas, just as being Jewish barred you from certain public jobs and education. And now days, traditions of Muslims are being banned left right and center... does not sound much like a melting pot... and barely multi-culturalism.

And yes the US has created new holidays like Columbus day and Presidents day.. but is that culture or an excuse to take a day off?

 

[PeteEU]

This has very little to do with demographics and besides, demographic evolutions don't follow a predictable line over the long term.

hehe I agree, and your words are refreshing coming from an American.. considering how many Americans talk about Europe becoming Muslim in 20 years and all that crap.. and basing it on voodoo demographics.

Within two decades there will still be many more people in the US speaking English (or what passes for it) then people speaking Spanish (or what passes for it).

Depends on many factors, but it can go either way.

And while the number of Roman Catholics may grow, it is very unlikely they will constitute an overall majority of all Christians, let alone of the whole population in the US.

Considering that the Catholic Church is already the biggest denomination with over 68 million devoted, then chances are pretty good with more Latino immigration and higher birth rates among Latinos, that this will only grow and maybe even become a majority over the next few decades.

But as you said very nicely... demographic evolutions dont follow a predictable line over the long term, so we dont really know.. but it is a good debate

 

[Wiggen]

Yes his family did it seems, so what? Does not change the fact that most Chinese (not all) live in concentrated areas of the US.

Which proves what? that they haven't assimilated? Again, you demonstrate a profound ignorance of life in the U.S.

 

[Wiggen]

So the whole of the US celebrates Ramadan, Kings day and so on? Do you have the day off on El Eid just as you have on Christmas? How about Chinese New Year.. is that a national holiday?

Now you've moved from being ignorant about the United States to just being ridiculous. I love people who pontificate about life in the United States from places like you list as your 'location', revealing your lack of knowledge with every post. However, I do enjoy your posts. It's always fun watching someonerepeat their demonstration of their ignorance on almost a daily basis..