Is Palin finished as a Prez hopeful?

[haymarket]

Last night, on FOX of all places, Geraldo Rivera raised the subject of the Arizona shootings and their connection to the Sarah PAC ad and how it could end the political career of Sarah Palin.


Sarah Palin under fire as sheriff Clarence Dupnik blames political 'vitriol' for Arizona shooting | Mail Online


Sarah Palin under fire as sheriff Clarence Dupnik blames political 'vitriol' for Arizona shooting | Mail Online

Is Sarah Palin's Political Career Over After Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' Shooting and Other Deaths in Tucson, Arizona? - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

a small part of the third link

As Sarah Palin has become more strident, more vocal, more filled with hate-rhetoric and, yes, quite frankly crazier-sounding, many of us feared her violence-filled rhetoric would only end


in tragedy. Today that fear was borne out in the Tucson, Arizona shooting of Representative Gabrielle Giffords, one of the Democrats on a 'hit list' Sarah Palin published on her website late last year.

As well as that 'hit list', Sarah Palin in subsequent weeks also asked voters to 'reload and aim' at Democrats - Gabrielle Giffords being one of them. She even published a graphic of certain districts on a US map, with those districts covered over with a graphic of the crosshairs of a gun. One of those districts was that of Gabrielle Giffords. At the time, several prominent Democrats accused Palin of 'inciting violence'.

Now, with Palin connected to hate-filled rhetoric that could be partially responsible for today's shooting of Giffords, the death of a federal judge and a nine year old girl, as well as the deaths of four others, is Sarah Palin's political career over? Right-thinking individuals would hope so, but don't underestimate extreme right-wingers themselves, the Tea Party and its supporters in America today.

Unfortunately, in modern America, hate speech and hate rhetoric has gained a foothold in the media and has become somewhat 'acceptable'. Unlike in many other developed countries, where this type of speech is not protected under "free speech" and thus not allowed, in America it is. Fanned by the Tea Party, by 'personalities' like Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly, and by wanna-be political candidates like Sarah Palin, in recent months this hate speech has gone completely out of control. Many, like Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, now believe hate speech, a la Sarah Palin, on the radio and television is connected to the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords.

I am sixty-one years old and have been following presidential politics going back to the 1960 election. The ad for Sarah PAC, using gun imagery of target cross-hairs placed over states, and the name of Congresswoman Giffords on the hit list, is perhaps the most damaging single piece of material I have seen on any wannabe president. This has the potential to once and for all end the political career of Sarah Palin, at least in terms of being a viable candidate for President of the USA.

This is so devastating because it does exactly what Palin wanted it to do. It was flash, it was brash and it was controversial. It used the gun imagery that is so much a part of her own carefully crafted self image. And not it has come back to bite her firmly in the backside.

Those who love her, and those who love gun imagery, may find convoluted explanations as to why this is really not so bad. Thats fine and is irrelevant. They mean nothing since they are already in the bag. The people who count here are the 20% in the middle who identify as Independents. The voters who bounce back and forth between the parties and tell you they are voting for the best candidate regardless of party are the ones who matter here.

And this entire Sarah PAC cross-hairs hit list with the name of Giffords on it is going to disgust them as more and more of them are exposed to it. They will be so turned off by what Palin has done, regardless if the shooter ever admits to seeing it or not, that the effect will be devastating to Palin.

Make no mistake.... Palin could still win GOP primaries in 2012 given the increasingly extremist nature of the GOP base who turns out for such things. And while her chances of nomination today are far weaker than they were on Friday, she even could win the GOP nomination. But her chances to win the November 2012 election are now so long and so tiny that they are not even worth considering.

You are tempted to say that the entire Sarah PAC episode has resulted in Palin shooting herself in the foot. Keeping with the gun imagery that Palin herself loves, I think the self inflicted wound is much higher on the body.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I don't know why you thought she WAS a strong presidential hopeful to begin with :shrug:

Every-time I think of the notion I think of Pamela Finkelstein from the movie UHF

 

[Gardener]

I'm 56, and so just a little younger, but I can sure remember the political turmoil of the sixties. The militance of the racial rhetoric was escalating, and when M.L.K. was shot, it was only reasonable to question the motivation of the shooter. It was also only reasonable to question the militancy of the rhetoric surrounding civil rights and it was only reasonable to conclude that actions follow words.

Now, I wouldn't compare Giffords to M.L.K., of course, but the similarity here lies in the way we, as a nation, address the issue of militancy and threatening rhetoric. That Palin has encouraged her followers to "lock and load" while evoking imagery of snipers targets with her "hit lists" is absolutely unconscionable. Unreasonable people might rationalize or ignore this, and even attack those who reject it as being "partisan hacks", but if rejecting this disgusting behavior is that of a "partisan hack", what does that say about those rationalizing it?

What I am hoping comes out of this isn't necessarily the ending of Palin's carreer, but the realization among a few more Americans that there is a relationship between word and deed -- between the increasing militancy of rhetoric on a national level and the increasing militancy of actions to follow. Many senators on Palin's hit list have received death threats, and it is time, we as a people say "enough is enough!"

 

[Zyphlin]

Pathetic and despicable...

Your post, and the sheriff's comment, not necessarily Palin's commercial.

You have absolutely zero proof of any kind that Palin's commercial had an ounce to do with what happened, yet you are using the killing and maiming of a dozen individuals for your worthless, pathetic, hyper partisan agenda.

YOU and people like you are the ones that are making politics disgusting in this day and age with your complete and utter mindless adherence to nothing but your political agenda.

 

[Gardener]

Pathetic and despicable...

Your post, and the sheriff's comment, not necessarily Palin's commercial.

You have absolutely zero proof of any kind that Palin's commercial had an ounce to do with what happened, yet you are using the killing and maiming of a dozen individuals for your worthless, pathetic, hyper partisan agenda.

YOU and people like you are the ones that are making politics disgusting in this day and age with your complete and utter mindless adherence to nothing but your political agenda.

Why would you view an attempted assassination in any way OTHER than political, and why do you reserve these personal attacks for those looking for reasons for the killing spree and not those who encourage their followers to "lock and load"?

 

[Goshin]

The quantity and quality of partisan speculation and hyperbole surrounding this tragedy is insane.

The shooter was clearly nuts. We will not know all the specifics of his motivation for some time, if ever. Speculation is futile, and merely stokes the fires of partisan hackery.... which is probably exactly what some intend.

 

[Zyphlin]

Why would you view an attempted assassination in any way OTHER than political

Because a number of assassinations of political figures haven't been political. And beyond that, there is a difference between people legitimately looking at the motives of this guy to better understand him, and hyper partisan hacks that cherry pick information and use a situation like this with no care or desire to understand this man to stop ones like him but rather to simply attack, slander, and smear the other side and push a political agenda.

and why do you reserve these personal attacks for those looking for reasons for the killing spree and not those who encourage their followers to "lock and load"?

[/quote]

I reserve attacks on this kind of worthless political action and tact because its the lowest form of political discussions. I reserve my attacks for this because Palin's rhetoric, while idiotic, is not using the death of a ****ing 9 year old girl as the emotional brace to slander and attempt to smear people in hopes of pushing a political agenda. Palin isn't the one ****ting upon 15 dead or injured individuals while putting on n act like she really cares about the situation.

If you, or haymarket, HONESTLY gave a damn about finding out about "reasons" you'd look at ALL the various insinuations, you'd wait for actual FACTS to come out, you'd with hold twisting it IMMEDIATELY into pushing a political agenda you've been complaining about for some time to instead wait and see what actually came out that helped expose the "Reasons". This isn't anything new, haymarkets been saying this same bull**** for some time now....the only difference is that he has the death of a 9 year old and the maiming of a senator to use as an emotional cudgel to attempt to beat people over the head with it. He doesn't give a **** about the "reason" this happened, he just cares how he can use it. Which is obvious since IMMEDIATELY his first reaction is to ignore anything that goes against what he WANTS this to be, jumps to conclusions, and then pushes his same tired point.

Pathetic, disgusting, and everything that's wrong with politics today.

 

[haymarket]

What is disgusting is your narrow partisan reaction.
What is pathetic is your denial of obvious reality where Palin contributed to a poisonous atmosphere by placing cross hair targets on states and placing the names of the intended victims on her own political PAC website.
What is wrong with politics today is that people like you sense what is going to happen here and you are trying to delay the inevitable as long as possible.

Zyphlin, if you do not like this thread , then please stay out of it. This thread is about the obvious connection between Sarah Palin and her PAC site and what happened yesterday and the obvious damage it is going to do to her as a 2012 hopeful.

Zyphlin... many on your conservative right side are infected with a disease far worse than syphilis or any other VD. They are infected with HATE pure and simple. And people like Palin have attempted to channel and use this HATE for their own narrow partisan political purposes. You want to play high and mighty today and pretend it did not happen the way it did, fine. But this thread is a clear and unapologetic discussion of the implications of the actions of Sarah Palin in the PAC crosshairs ad and her own political future. You don't like it? Fine - that is your right. And so it is mine to discuss it.

 

[Zyphlin]

Let me perhaps be a bit more clear.

If someone's honest desire was to find out the "Reason" about this...they'd be doing that. They would not be starting a thread about whether or not Palin is finished as Prez. They would not decide to focus only on reports that hint towards right wing tendencies but dismiss all that hint towards left wing tendencies. They would not listen to rhetoric from talking heads about what MAY'VE inspired this man when said rhetoric is based off of not a single solitary bit of factual information regarding the case. They would be aware of history with similar type "politically charged" situations and know that speculation runs rampant, and usually wrong, early with facts coming later and thus any "reason" will take some time to find out. They would hesitate to make declarations of what's to blame, or what must change, or what should be condemned until there is actually clear evidence that those things had anything at all to do with this situation.

None of the above can be contributed to the OP or many others who have immediately jumped onto the "blame Palin, blame Beck, blame Limbaugh" express.

 

[Zyphlin]

Zyphlin, if you do not like this thread , then please stay out of it. This thread is about the obvious connection between Sarah Palin and her PAC site and what happened yesterday and the obvious damage it is going to do to her as a 2012 hopeful.

The only thing obvious here is your lack of understanding of what the definition of obvious is.

Zyphlin... many on your conservative right side are infected with a disease far worse than syphilis or any other VD. They are infected with HATE pure and simple.

Funny, I thought "hate" is a rather equal opportunity disease. You know, the type of thing that spurs people to use the tragic events that included the death of a 9 y/o to immediately start banging the same political drum they were banging right before hand based off nothing but baseless and factless assumptions that they pretend are "obvious facts".

You're free to discuss it. I'm free to disagree with you.

 

[haymarket]

The only thing obvious here is your lack of understanding of what the definition of obvious is.



Funny, I thought "hate" is a rather equal opportunity disease. You know, the type of thing that spurs people to use the tragic events that included the death of a 9 y/o to immediately start banging the same political drum they were banging right before hand based off nothing but baseless and factless assumptions that they pretend are "obvious facts".

You're free to discuss it. I'm free to disagree with you.

The cost of hate is indeed across all ideologies and wavers back and forth like the pendulum on a grandfather clock. Today, 2011, we are in a period of right wing ascendency and the hate is coming from them with severe consequences.

 

[Redress]

Zyphlin, if you do not like this thread , then please stay out of it. This thread is about the obvious connection between Sarah Palin and her PAC site and what happened yesterday and the obvious damage it is going to do to her as a 2012 hopeful.

There is no such obvious connection. There may be a connection, but at this point in time it is impossible to say.

Zyphlin... many on your conservative right side are infected with a disease far worse than syphilis or any other VD. They are infected with HATE pure and simple.

Do you know what irony is?

 

[Gardener]

You're free to discuss it. I'm free to disagree with you.

But you are attacking him personally in doing so.

Such attacks indicate to me that as far as partisan agendas are concerned, you may wish to consider your own.

 

[haymarket]

If anyone here from the right wants to try to be honest for just a single minute, lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say that Barack Obama put out a map with cross-hairs on it of his main opponents he has targeted to get rid of. And on the bottom he put the names of the intended victims he wanted to get rid of. One of them being Eric Cantor. And yesterday somebody shot Cantor and 18 other folks killing six of them.

We would right now have over 300 pages of rank vitriol on this very site from the usual right wing suspects demanding the head of Barack Obama.

And anyone with an ounce of honesty knows it .

 

[winston53660]

If anyone here from the right wants to try to be honest for just a single minute, lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say that Barack Obama put out a map with cross-hairs on it of his main opponents he has targeted to get rid of. And on the bottom he put the names of the intended victims he wanted to get rid of. One of them being Eric Cantor. And yesterday somebody shot Cantor and 18 other folks killing six of them.

We would right now have over 300 pages of rank vitriol on this very site from the usual right wing suspects demanding the head of Barack Obama.

And anyone with an ounce of honesty knows it .

I've been reminded of Neal Horsely's Nuremberg Files website where he published the names and addresses of abortion providers:

The Nuremberg Files is a website that displays the names and locations of various doctors who perform abortions throughout the United States. They came under fire as controversial because they provided photos, addresses, and other personal data of abortion providers. They also updated the listings of those doctors who had been injured or murdered by "pro-life" individuals, indicating their approval for the elimination of the provider.
While the original site was shut down in 2002, it has reappeared more than once on other ISPs. Horsley has been forced to change his Internet service provider numerous times due to the site's content, and his website has been hacked on several occasions.
It has been stated that information from the Nuremberg Files site was used by James Charles Kopp to track down and kill Buffalo doctor Barnett Slepian in 1998. [2] Kopp fled the country (becoming a fugitive in Canada) but allegedly maintained contact with Horsley while on the run. Kopp was later arrested in France and extradited to New York, where he is serving a 25-year prison sentence.
After Slepian's murder, Planned Parenthood's president Gloria Feldt denounced Horsley's website at a press conference. The publicity generated hundreds of thousands of hits (Horsley claims 400,000). Horsley was named as a co-conspirator in a successful civil suit, Planned Parenthood v. American Coalition of Life Activists,[4] filed by Planned Parenthood over the information compiled by him and "Unwanted Posters" of doctors, which was judged by the court to constitute a threat of violence, even without an explicit call to violence. The U.S. Supreme court has twice refused to hear the case, upholding the ruling, but asking that the punitive damages be reconsidered.[3] Punitive damages were reduced from $108 million to $4.7 million. The ruling also provides for $11 million in treble damages and $526,000 in compensatory damages.[4][5]
As part of the judgment, Horsley was to take down the "Nuremberg Files" section of his website. The verdict was later overturned on appeal, and the files returned. The case was reheard en banc, and the court determined that the files constituted constitutionally unprotected "true threats". Karin Spaink ran a mirror of the site in the Netherlands for about a week after the district court decision. She ultimately decided to remove the mirror.


Neal Horsley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Redress]

If anyone here from the right wants to try to be honest for just a single minute, lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say that Barack Obama put out a map with cross-hairs on it of his main opponents he has targeted to get rid of. And on the bottom he put the names of the intended victims he wanted to get rid of. One of them being Eric Cantor. And yesterday somebody shot Cantor and 18 other folks killing six of them.

We would right now have over 300 pages of rank vitriol on this very site from the usual right wing suspects demanding the head of Barack Obama.

And anyone with an ounce of honesty knows it .

And I would be saying the same thing I am saying now. Why is what others might possibly do an excuse for you to do something? You decry the over the top rhetoric, while engaging in the same.

 

[Renae]

Sarah Palin is pro-gun. She uses "Gun talk" in some of her ads to show she's about kick'in political butt and getting things done. Someone shoots someone on one of Palin's list. OMG IT'S SARAH PALINS FAULT!!! Are people REALLY that ****ing stupid to follow that sort of logic? No, I don't think ANYONE is.

So what's the real motive here? Hyper-partisanism! (did I just coin a new term?)

 

[Renae]

I've been reminded of Neal Horsely's Nuremberg Files website where he published the names and addresses of abortion providers:

The Nuremberg Files is a website that displays the names and locations of various doctors who perform abortions throughout the United States. They came under fire as controversial because they provided photos, addresses, and other personal data of abortion providers. They also updated the listings of those doctors who had been injured or murdered by "pro-life" individuals, indicating their approval for the elimination of the provider.
While the original site was shut down in 2002, it has reappeared more than once on other ISPs. Horsley has been forced to change his Internet service provider numerous times due to the site's content, and his website has been hacked on several occasions.
It has been stated that information from the Nuremberg Files site was used by James Charles Kopp to track down and kill Buffalo doctor Barnett Slepian in 1998. [2] Kopp fled the country (becoming a fugitive in Canada) but allegedly maintained contact with Horsley while on the run. Kopp was later arrested in France and extradited to New York, where he is serving a 25-year prison sentence.
After Slepian's murder, Planned Parenthood's president Gloria Feldt denounced Horsley's website at a press conference. The publicity generated hundreds of thousands of hits (Horsley claims 400,000). Horsley was named as a co-conspirator in a successful civil suit, Planned Parenthood v. American Coalition of Life Activists,[4] filed by Planned Parenthood over the information compiled by him and "Unwanted Posters" of doctors, which was judged by the court to constitute a threat of violence, even without an explicit call to violence. The U.S. Supreme court has twice refused to hear the case, upholding the ruling, but asking that the punitive damages be reconsidered.[3] Punitive damages were reduced from $108 million to $4.7 million. The ruling also provides for $11 million in treble damages and $526,000 in compensatory damages.[4][5]
As part of the judgment, Horsley was to take down the "Nuremberg Files" section of his website. The verdict was later overturned on appeal, and the files returned. The case was reheard en banc, and the court determined that the files constituted constitutionally unprotected "true threats". Karin Spaink ran a mirror of the site in the Netherlands for about a week after the district court decision. She ultimately decided to remove the mirror.


Neal Horsley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quite disturbing. Of you that is to make that connection. I always thought you were somewhat reasonable.

 

[Zyphlin]

If anyone here from the right wants to try to be honest for just a single minute, lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say that Barack Obama put out a map with cross-hairs on it of his main opponents he has targeted to get rid of. And on the bottom he put the names of the intended victims he wanted to get rid of. One of them being Eric Cantor. And yesterday somebody shot Cantor and 18 other folks killing six of them.

We would right now have over 300 pages of rank vitriol on this very site from the usual right wing suspects demanding the head of Barack Obama.

And anyone with an ounce of honesty knows it .

I'm sure we would have your hyper partisan equivalent on the right doing the same thing you're doing. That doesn't make it right, that just highlights that the disgusting political tactic is found on all sides.

And I would be saying the same thing I am now. Which is the same thing I said when the guy crashed his plane into the building. And the same thing I said with the Census worker that was hung. And the same thing I said about the "B" woman. And the same thing I said about the Fort Hood Killer. And the same thing I say everytime we have one of these incidents that are immediately tied to politics and the hyper partisan hacks flood out of the woodwork to immediately use the tragedy to push their same tired agenda.

This is why I frankly don't give a **** what you, or gardner, worthlessly want to bitch about me in regards to my "partisanship" because I've got a proven and linkable track record of saying the exact same thing regardless of which side the speculation is initially going after.....

Wait for actual FACTS to come out, actually look at the entire body of facts, and don't start throwing out comments and accusations as if they're unquestionably legitimate based off nothing but speculation and primarily partisan cherry picking.

 

[winston53660]

Quite disturbing. Of you that is to make that connection. I always thought you were somewhat reasonable.

It is just a similar situation

 

[X Factor]

If anyone here from the right wants to try to be honest for just a single minute, lets put the shoe on the other foot. Lets say that Barack Obama put out a map with cross-hairs on it of his main opponents he has targeted to get rid of. And on the bottom he put the names of the intended victims he wanted to get rid of. One of them being Eric Cantor. And yesterday somebody shot Cantor and 18 other folks killing six of them.

We would right now have over 300 pages of rank vitriol on this very site from the usual right wing suspects demanding the head of Barack Obama.

And anyone with an ounce of honesty knows it .

This is easily proven. Cantor's office was shot into like a year ago. Where's the 300 page thread?

 

[winston53660]

This is easily proven. Cantor's office was shot into like a year ago. Where's the 300 page thread?

Why don't you check the archives. I do remember it being discussed here.

 

[X Factor]

Haymarket's made the assertion. He can show me the thread.

 

[Renae]

It is just a similar situation

Not in the least. but I suppose you're that kinda guy. Good to know, will file that away for future discussions.

 

[Gardener]

This is why I frankly don't give a ****

about civility.