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Is Making Anti-Muslim Comments Bigoted[W:92,185]

calamity

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Seems a Fox host is being called a bigot for voicing some anti-Muslim opinions.
Bob Beckel: 'If It Were Up To Me, I Would Not Have Another Mosque Built In This Country Until We' Knew Who Were 'Terrorists' (VIDEO)

I'm not so sure.

Example1:
Shortly after the Boston Marathon bombings, Beckel said that Muslim students from abroad who wanted to study in the U.S. should be cut off from doing so, "so that we can at least absorb what we've got, look at what we've got and decide whether some of the people here should be sent back home or sent to prison."
I agree.

Example 2:
He referenced his previous comment about Muslim students on Tuesday during a discussion on a recent deadly attack on a Nigerian boarding school. The attack was believed to be carried out by militants who were Boko Haram Islamic radicals. "If it were up to me, I would not have another mosque built in this country until we got it worked out who was not a terrorist," Beckel added.
Unconstitutional. So that's a non-sequitor. But, what happened in that Nigerian school is one reason I personally would like to see radical Musllim groups like Boko Haram wiped off the face of the earth.

Is hating on radical Muslims bigoted? I think not. Is being suspicious of all Muslims until sure they are not radicals bigoted? Borderline issue, IMO.


Warning added by CaptainCourtesty at post #92.
 
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TheNextEra

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Is hating on radical Muslims bigoted? I think not. Is being suspicious of all Muslims until sure they are not radicals bigoted? Borderline issue, IMO.
No, hating radical Muslims is not bigoted. However, punishing ALL Muslims is bigoted.
 

davidtaylorjr

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Seems a Fox host is being called a bigot for voicing some anti-Muslim opinions.
Bob Beckel: 'If It Were Up To Me, I Would Not Have Another Mosque Built In This Country Until We' Knew Who Were 'Terrorists' (VIDEO)

I'm not so sure.

Example1:

I agree.

Example 2:

Unconstitutional. So that's a non-sequitor. But, what happened in that Nigerian school is one reason I personally would like to see radical Musllim groups like Boko Haram wiped off the face of the earth.

Is hating on radical Muslims bigoted? I think not. Is being suspicious of all Muslims until sure they are not radicals bigoted? Borderline issue, IMO.
1. I don't think that was hating Muslims, that was talking about figuring out who is here as a terrorist disguised as a peaceful Muslim.

2. I truly don't believe Islam is a religion of peace as they claim.

3. Bigoted, I guess yes by the very definition of the term, but wrong? No, I don't think so.
 

brothern

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Hating Muslims and attacking their freedom to worship, I would say is wrong and prejudice. Why? You are attacking people.

Hating Islam and attacking its tenets and practices is not. You are criticizing an idea. Ideas do not deserve protection from criticism.
 

German guy

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It's amazing that so many people fail to understand a very simple concept when it's about Muslims, although they perfectly understand it when it's about other groups such as Jews or blacks:

What bothers people about "islamophobia" is not that radical islamism is under attack. It's the broad-brushing of many that paint all Muslims with the same broad brush, or even all immigrants in general. And yes, that often happens.

Would be nice if we didn't stereotype groups, but instead focused more on the individuals.
 

Gardener

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The yardstick I use involves the distinction between what is voluntary and what is not. A persons race, ethnicity, sex and various other attributes are involuntary. An ideology, however, is a choice, so criticism of one ideology should be treated in similar fashion to criticism of any other.

As to bigotry, if criticism of the ideology is transfered to criticism of people, an those who follow it in varying degrees are all are treated the same, then the attitudes are bigoted since they do not allow for variences in individual interpretation.

As to Islam, specifically, my experience on these boads has made it clear that if one criticizes the ideology, and number of posters (especially British) will wag their fingers at you calling you an Islamophobe, even if you are quite careful to distinguish between Islamists and ordinary Muslims. Same goes when addressing Muslim beliefs as a whole, if one points out problematical beliefs that affect signifigant percentages of the population, be prepared to be accused of attacking ALL Muslims.
 

Sarcogito

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Criticizing Islam, or any religion or belief, is not bigoted. Denying people rights and privileges solely BECAUSE of their religion and beliefs, such as not allowing them to build a place of worship or to immigrate, IS bigoted.
 

ttwtt78640

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It's amazing that so many people fail to understand a very simple concept when it's about Muslims, although they perfectly understand it when it's about other groups such as Jews or blacks:

What bothers people about "islamophobia" is not that radical islamism is under attack. It's the broad-brushing of many that paint all Muslims with the same broad brush, or even all immigrants in general. And yes, that often happens.

Would be nice if we didn't stereotype groups, but instead focused more on the individuals.
This sounds all well and good in theory - yet that is very difficult to put into actual practice. Consider other "bad" ideas/movements in the course of world history, e.g. Nazism. Separating the bad guys from the good guys is not that easy, especially if they are not putting on a uniform and openly declaring their status. For example: if the general population (or a significant portion of it) offers support for the destructive efforts of the "bad cause" are they really still completely innocent? While a criminal is said to be individually (personally?) responsible for their criminal actions, we still do not allow others to remain balmeless if they hide or assist that individual in avoiding recognition/capture.
 

German guy

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The yardstick I use involves the distinction between what is voluntary and what is not. A persons race, ethnicity, sex and various other attributes are involuntary. An ideology, however, is a choice, so criticism of one ideology should be treated in similar fashion to criticism of any other.

As to bigotry, if criticism of the ideology is transfered to criticism of people, an those who follow it in varying degrees are all are treated the same, then the attitudes are bigoted since they do not allow for variences in individual interpretation.

As to Islam, specifically, my experience on these boads has made it clear that if one criticizes the ideology, and number of posters (especially British) will wag their fingers at you calling you an Islamophobe, even if you are quite careful to distinguish between Islamists and ordinary Muslims. Same goes when addressing Muslim beliefs as a whole, if one points out problematical beliefs that affect signifigant percentages of the population, be prepared to be accused of attacking ALL Muslims.
What about Jews? It's an ideology too, not a genetic trait, if we're not dealing with genetic arguments, but attacks on Israeli national identity/mindset and/or religion.

If someone said "Jews are a threat/I don't like Jews, because they believe they are ethnically superior and have a God-given right on Palestinian lands, and will never recognize non-Jews as equal" (which undoubtedly is indeed true for not few more conservative Israelis and their sympathizers), I'd consider that a bigoted over-generalization, as there are many Jews who don't fit that description.

I think the many attacks on Muslims are about equally true as that description of Jews. Hence I don't think it would be fair to stereotype either religious group.

There are many things I'd criticize about the religion of Islam, much like I'd criticize many things about Christianity. But when I look at the Christians and Muslims around, I see they're very diverse and don't necessarily share these religious believes either.
 

Gardener

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It's amazing that so many people fail to understand a very simple concept when it's about Muslims, although they perfectly understand it when it's about other groups such as Jews or blacks:

.
Equally amazing are all those who place the adherence to an ideology in the same class as that of race and ethnicity. The failure to distinguish does not display enough acumen to be able to truly understand the issue.
 

Gardener

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What about Jews? It's an ideology too, not a genetic trait
What absolute nonsense. Judaism may be a religion, but the majority of Jews are secular, their Jewishness defind by ethnicity, not religion.

Rather than your derailing the thread in order to try to make it about Jews and Israel, however, perhaps it would be better to stick to the subject.
 

MaggieD

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Seems a Fox host is being called a bigot for voicing some anti-Muslim opinions.
Bob Beckel: 'If It Were Up To Me, I Would Not Have Another Mosque Built In This Country Until We' Knew Who Were 'Terrorists' (VIDEO)

I'm not so sure.

Example1:

I agree.

Example 2:

Unconstitutional. So that's a non-sequitor. But, what happened in that Nigerian school is one reason I personally would like to see radical Musllim groups like Boko Haram wiped off the face of the earth.

Is hating on radical Muslims bigoted? I think not. Is being suspicious of all Muslims until sure they are not radicals bigoted? Borderline issue, IMO.
I would like to say this thinking is dead wrong. But I can't. This isn't about a people, it's about an ideology. There are radical Muslims that want to see us dead...want to see our way of life destroyed...want to destroy our country.

I don't condone what he said; neither do I agree with it. But I don't think he's being bigoted.
 

calamity

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1. I don't think that was hating Muslims, that was talking about figuring out who is here as a terrorist disguised as a peaceful Muslim.

2. I truly don't believe Islam is a religion of peace as they claim.

3. Bigoted, I guess yes by the very definition of the term, but wrong? No, I don't think so.
1. I agree

2. If it was the religion of peace, people would not be afraid to draw cartoons of Mohammed, and schools would not be firebombed with exits barricaded.

3. I never considered that sometimes being bigoted is not wrong. Food for thought. Thanks.
 

ttwtt78640

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What about Jews? It's an ideology too, not a genetic trait, if we're not dealing with genetic arguments, but attacks on Israeli national identity/mindset and/or religion.

If someone said "Jews are a threat/I don't like Jews, because they believe they are ethnically superior and have a God-given right on Palestinian lands, and will never recognize non-Jews as equal" (which undoubtedly is indeed true for not few more conservative Israelis and their sympathizers), I'd consider that a bigoted over-generalization, as there are many Jews who don't fit that description.

I think the many attacks on Muslims are about equally true as that description of Jews. Hence I don't think it would be fair to stereotype either religious group.

There are many things I'd criticize about the religion of Islam, much like I'd criticize many things about Christianity. But when I look at the Christians and Muslims around, I see they're very diverse and don't necessarily share these religious believes either.
Although not a perfect analogy, consider fire ants. You may not care about all fire ants in general but you surely don't want them in your yard. You can say that only a very tiny percentage of them will ever do you harm, but unless you destroy the entire colony they will persist to make your life miserable. ;)
 

davidtaylorjr

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1. I agree

2. If it was the religion of peace, people would not be afraid to draw cartoons of Mohammed, and schools would not be firebombed with exits barricaded.

3. I never considered that sometimes being bigoted is not wrong. Food for thought. Thanks.
Everyone always assumes that being bigoted is bad in every case. The fact is, most of society is bigoted toward murderers, rapists, but you don't hear people screaming "you bigot" for hating and talking against those people.
 

Redress

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Seems a Fox host is being called a bigot for voicing some anti-Muslim opinions.
Bob Beckel: 'If It Were Up To Me, I Would Not Have Another Mosque Built In This Country Until We' Knew Who Were 'Terrorists' (VIDEO)

I'm not so sure.

Example1:

I agree.

Example 2:

Unconstitutional. So that's a non-sequitor. But, what happened in that Nigerian school is one reason I personally would like to see radical Musllim groups like Boko Haram wiped off the face of the earth.

Is hating on radical Muslims bigoted? I think not. Is being suspicious of all Muslims until sure they are not radicals bigoted? Borderline issue, IMO.
He is not hating on radical Muslims, he is hating on all of Muslims. In neither quote does he make a distinction.

As for your question, let's draw a parallel that might be illustrative. Most abortion clinic bombings and threats and shootings are done by radical Christians. Now leave aside whether you think that is really comparable to Muslim terrorism as that is irrelevant for what I am going for. If, because of those bombings and violence, some one suggested that no more Christians should be allowed in the US and no more churches should he built in order to investigate what we already have here and worked out which ones where terrorists, would you consider that bigoted?
 

Papa bull

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Seems a Fox host is being called a bigot for voicing some anti-Muslim opinions.
Bob Beckel: 'If It Were Up To Me, I Would Not Have Another Mosque Built In This Country Until We' Knew Who Were 'Terrorists' (VIDEO)

I'm not so sure.

Example1:

I agree.

Example 2:

Unconstitutional. So that's a non-sequitor. But, what happened in that Nigerian school is one reason I personally would like to see radical Musllim groups like Boko Haram wiped off the face of the earth.

Is hating on radical Muslims bigoted? I think not. Is being suspicious of all Muslims until sure they are not radicals bigoted? Borderline issue, IMO.
Is hating radical Muslims bigoted? No. Hating radical Muslims is a reasonable emotional reaction to the realization that they want to cut off your head or watch you disappear into a bloody mist in an explosion they triggered. It is reasonable emotional reaction to knowing they rejoice as they did the same with your wife, daughter, mother, father or son. It is not bigotry if it is reasonable.

Is being suspicious of Muslims until you know they are not radical bigoted? No. Since only 4 out of 5 American Muslims say that suicide bombings against civilian targets are never justified, I think it is reasonable to be suspicious of Muslims, in general. The incidence of terrorist sympathy is so high that it is reasonable to be suspicious. Of course, if one is NOT a bigot, one would keep an open mind and treat people like individuals, but let's not confuse being cautious and wary from assuming the worst and not being open or willing to change your mind. You're not a bigot if you approach a pit bull with caution even though you are aware that most are very people-friendly dogs. You don't have to think they're all like that to be reasonable in caution with any one you don't know.

If there wasn't such a widespread willingness to commit or support violence it would be different. As it stands, being cautious is reasonable.
 

Gardener

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He is not hating on radical Muslims, he is hating on all of Muslims. In neither quote does he make a distinction.

As for your question, let's draw a parallel that might be illustrative. Most abortion clinic bombings and threats and shootings are done by radical Christians. Now leave aside whether you think that is really comparable to Muslim terrorism as that is irrelevant for what I am going for. If, because of those bombings and violence, some one suggested that no more Christians should be allowed in the US and no more churches should he built in order to investigate what we already have here and worked out which ones where terrorists, would you consider that bigoted?
In making any analogy, there should be a certain responsibility placed upon the one doing to to ensure a certain sense of equitability. How many fellow Christians support Abortion clinic killings and how many Muslims support terrorism? How many Christians support the complete implementation of Christian law and how many Muslims want Sharia?

I'm not saying his comments are not bigoted, but it is specious to make analogies when one attitude is prevalent in one population and the same attitude quite rare in another. It suggests a sense of moral equivalence that does not exist in reality, and so is the product of apologia rather than any real attempt at understanding.
 

Papa bull

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Everyone always assumes that being bigoted is bad in every case. The fact is, most of society is bigoted toward murderers, rapists, but you don't hear people screaming "you bigot" for hating and talking against those people.
It is not bigotry to have antipathy for murderers and rapists. It is a judgment based on individual behavior and is reasonable; not a stubborn narrow-mindedness toward other belief systems that is in effect.
 

davidtaylorjr

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It is not bigotry to have antipathy for murderers and rapists. It is a judgment based on individual behavior and is reasonable; not a stubborn narrow-mindedness toward other belief systems that is in effect.
Let me clarify, people who support murder, and rape, or lust after children, or whatever. You don't hear people screaming bigots at people who hate those kinds of people.
 

Papa bull

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Let me clarify, people who support murder, and rape, or lust after children, or whatever. You don't hear people screaming bigots at people who hate those kinds of people.
That's because it is not a closed-minded prejudice and hatred toward people with different beliefs that is in play. It is an antipathy toward people that support despicable acts of violence and depravity.
 

Redress

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In making any analogy, there should be a certain responsibility placed upon the one doing to to ensure a certain sense of equitability. How many fellow Christians support Abortion clinic killings and how many Muslims support terrorism? How many Christians support the complete implementation of Christian law and how many Muslims want Sharia?

I'm not saying his comments are not bigoted, but it is specious to make analogies when one attitude is prevalent in one population and the same attitude quite rare in another. It suggests a sense of moral equivalence that does not exist in reality, and so is the product of apologia rather than any real attempt at understanding.
None of that is relevant to the comparison I made. I knew you would have a bull**** complaint though. Excuses are just that, excuses.
 

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What absolute nonsense. Judaism may be a religion, but the majority of Jews are secular, their Jewishness defind by ethnicity, not religion.

Rather than your derailing the thread in order to try to make it about Jews and Israel, however, perhaps it would be better to stick to the subject.
The majority of Muslims I know is secular too, despite this self-description.

And yeah, the analogy to Jews is probably not entirely fitting. Yet being Jewish is not just a genetic trait, but in many cases, it's a chosen national and/or cultural identity on top of a religious identity.
 

davidtaylorjr

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That's because it is not a closed-minded prejudice and hatred toward people with different beliefs that is in play. It is an antipathy toward people that support despicable acts of violence and depravity.
Many would argue that is the same with Islam though. That is my point. The Koran calls for them to kill the infidel where they stand.
 

calamity

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He is not hating on radical Muslims, he is hating on all of Muslims. In neither quote does he make a distinction.

As for your question, let's draw a parallel that might be illustrative. Most abortion clinic bombings and threats and shootings are done by radical Christians. Now leave aside whether you think that is really comparable to Muslim terrorism as that is irrelevant for what I am going for. If, because of those bombings and violence, some one suggested that no more Christians should be allowed in the US and no more churches should he built in order to investigate what we already have here and worked out which ones where terrorists, would you consider that bigoted?
If a higher percentage of Christians condoned abortion clinic bombings perhaps it would be justified.

When a Christian bombs or kills innocent people, he's rather quickly condemned by Christians. Muslims do not speak out against their radicals. Therefore, IMO, Muslims condone such actions. This then makes them all suspect.
 
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