Interesting video explains problems with the minimum wage.

[AngryOldGuy]

do I hear 100

 

[AngryOldGuy]

hah anyone that takes a job that pays minimum wage is prolly worthless but if they take that job and slam it like an old screen door they won't be making seven seventy five an hour for long?

 

[wbcoleman]

do I hear 100

I call your $100 and raise you to $125! We're in the process of wiping out poverty!

 

[AngryOldGuy]

$135 a company car and four weeks paid vacation!

 

[wbcoleman]

$135 a company car and four weeks paid vacation!

Six weeks!

 

[jimbo]

PITY? Where the hell did you get that idea from? If a person is worth $7.25 hr, they are worth $10.00 an hour at least..if not, fire their asses and hire someone that is....The Right to Work states have kept wages down, but everyone deserves a living wage....

Why would you think that if someone is worth $7.25, then they will be worth $10. RTW states allow each employer and employee to decide their worth, That is called the market system. That is how it should be. No one other than myself and a prospective employer have the right to make that call.

You are simply wrong about everyone deserving a living wage. The only "deserve" is the equal right to pursue a living wage.

 

[274ina]

Then there are countries like Germany which have zero minimum wage, and have very, very low unemployment.

There certainly are other factors, but when you insert a blanket minimum wage, you're locking out anybody whose value is worth than that level.

Germany has a all union workforce, and much better labor laws than USA.

How about we adopt in USA this "zero min wage" and ALL other German labor laws......LMAO

 

[spud_meister]

Then there are countries like Germany which have zero minimum wage, and have very, very low unemployment.

There certainly are other factors, but when you insert a blanket minimum wage, you're locking out anybody whose value is worth than that level.

Germany's unemployment is at 5.4, Australia's is at 5.7, America's is at 7.6.

Seems to me that there is very little correlation between minimum wage and unemployment on an international scale.

 

[Juanita]

Not at all. Clearly their labor is worth at least what they are being paid now, although I think one of them is probably going to end up doing much better for himself in the future. But not, however, if you are successful. Because their labor is not currently worth the additional floor that you wish to put on wages, you are moving the bottom rung of the ladder out of their grasp, and so he will never be able to climb.

If the prevailing wage today was $10.00 an hour, would they not still have the same jobs?

 

[Juanita]

That's an amazing piece of math. By the same logic, if they are worth $10, then aren't they worth $12.50 at least? Or is it done by inclusive percentage, and they would be worth 13.33 each? If the lower, if they are worth $12.50 an hour, aren't they worth $15 an hour at least? $17.50? Does the magical "at least" button stop working at some point, or is this the kind of thing that if only we realized its' power we could all be raking in $3


So you are in favor of creating permanent unemployment among our most vulnerable populations? And yet you try to use an emotional description of their plight to others?

Hey, my sister has made some bad decisions in her life, and they left her raising a baby in a tough spot. **** her, fire her ass, am I right? Thanks. :roll:



A nice sentiment that falls apart under investigation, and has painful consequences (mostly for the poor) when put into practice.

Why do you keep insisting that these people cannot do the jobs that they were hired to do? If they can do the job at one rate, they can continue to do their jobs at a higher rate....

 

[AngryOldGuy]

Six weeks!

ok my final offer $140 a company car and eight weeks paid vacation and all the State and Government holidays off
take it or I'll hire a half dozen wetbacks and pay them under the table.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

If the prevailing wage today was $10.00 an hour, would they not still have the same jobs?

No in fact with the new healthcare law just going into effect they just lost their jobs and the company brought in a temp agency.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'd say the video is an accurate summary of something.

Basic economic theory.

But it ignores the actual questions involved in the minimum wage debate, which are:

1. What is (or should be) the value of the services?

2. Can employers handle that increase in cost?

1. The value is set by the free market. Or at least it should be. When we determine what the value (what minimum wage should be) and ignore the market, we run the risk of what the video shows happening.

2. Employers can handle the increase in costs as long as their consumers can handle the increase in costs. If the consumers refuse to pay the increased costs, then the employer has to make a choice as to where to cut costs to get the price of the product/service down to an acceptable level by the consumer. The video covered that as well. It is also a reason that the market share of certain US made products is not as high as it used to be. Consumers would rather buy a cheaper foreign made product than the more expensive domestic product where the employer is required to pay higher wages due to unions or prevailing wage laws, and the material the employer has to buy to make his product are higher for the same reasons, making it impossible for the employer to lower his products cost to a level where they can regain market share. The problem with minimum wage in this scenario is that the products sold by most employers that pay minimum wage are also the employers that sell to lower wage earning consumers. Meaning that if the employer raises his prices to cover increased labor costs, his lower wage earning customers may not be able to afford the same products that they once could. Raising minimum wage will not raise all wages. It will actually reduce the purchase power of most lower wage jobs that are higher than minimum wage given that product costs will increase, but their income will not.

See the correlation?

Talking abstractly about what happens when people demand more compensation for services than the people paying benefit from those services does not saying anything about whether raising the minimum wage from X to Y will actually cause the effects it is talking about.

It isn't abstract. It's based on basic economic theory.

I would say it should be viewed as a cautionary video more than anything else.

I agree with that.

There are some here that focused on the $100.00 example in the video, without understanding it was what is called "reduction to the ridiculous" which a practice used to make complex theories and facts easier to understand.

I feel like an effective counter-point to this video would be to say, sure, homeowner may not want to pay $1 extra per hour to the person who mows his lawn. But if homeowner owns his home by virtue of, for example, his sale of discretionary (i.e. non-necessary) goods, think about how much more money he could make if every homeowner paid the people who mowed their lawns $1 more per hour. That would be a whole lot of people with more discretionary income to buy his products. The few dollars of extra cost to him could enable him to make hundreds of dollars of extra profit.

How many people have enough discretionary funds to pay off their house, or to sell to gain the finances to buy the home in the first place? The main difficulty in the scenario you propose is that the increases in labor cost to product cost are not consistent or proportional when divided across the population as a whole.

I do like your thought process however.

All that said, Since we already have a minimum wage law, I do think that minimum wage is too low. We just need to be prepared for the inevitable problems that will arise. Higher poverty rates and less buying power by the lower wage earners in society.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Germany has a all union workforce, and much better labor laws than USA.

How about we adopt in USA this "zero min wage" and ALL other German labor laws......LMAO

That is completely, and entirely incorrect. Germany does NOT have an all union workforce, and there are laws AGAINST compulsory union membership. Because they can't force people to join unions, the unions actually have to try to represent the people. They may VOLUNTARILY join a union, which will negotiate salaries.

So no, there is no minimum wage, no compulsory union membership, AND their unemployment is lower.

 

[cpwill]

If the prevailing wage today was $10.00 an hour, would they not still have the same jobs?

:shrug: probably not. They probably never would have been hired in the first place, in fact, and their lives would be harder than they even are now.

 

[cpwill]

Why do you keep insisting that these people cannot do the jobs that they were hired to do? If they can do the job at one rate, they can continue to do their jobs at a higher rate....

They could continue to do so, certainly. They could keep performing their labor at a million dollars an hour. What they can't do is provide value-added over the cost to hiring and maintaining them at those rates, meaning that employing them constitutes a loss for the employer, meaning that employers who hire them will lose in competition, watch their business fail, and have to fire all their workers.

But I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question. Why is your response to the fact that my sister is a low-education, low-skill worker just starting out in life who can't command higher salaries "well screw her, fire her ass"? Why shouldn't she (and her brothers) be given a chance to start working, gain skills and experience, self-improve, and move up lifes' ladder? Why are you so keen on trapping them at the bottom by moving the bottom rung of that ladder out of their reach?

 

[Hicup]

Because the video assumes that increasing labor costs mean a matching increase in goods/services cost. Without that matching increase, those who get higher wages from a minimum wage increase do in fact benefit with higher spending power. In point of fact, increases labor costs increase the end product/service cost, but not at a one to one ratio.

That's called exponential growth... You should stick to politics, economics isn't your forte...


Tim-

 

[Hicup]

This was relevant before minimum wage was put into effect - now that we've started it, we have to keep going. The moment you end that in Corporate America, the moment **** hits the fan. It's just not possible to do away with it - businesses are not that honest and people are not that smart.

To be honest, I argue the opposite. The best thing the liberals could do for the poor is to eliminate the minimum wage in a declining economy. Right now those evil bastards we call corporate America are riding the pines. Welfare and all of those 121 entitlements actually make working for minimum wage a losing proposition. Eliminating the MW would cause all those people to either go on welfare or take more welfare, and live off it exclusively like so many do. Now, when McDonald's can't hire anyone at the threshold of working for a living of sucking the teat for a living, what do you suppose ole McDonalds will be forced to do?

See, this is why liberals are always wrong headed about achieving their goals. You want higher wages, fine, eliminate the MW, and it will happen relatively quickly. Good way to suck in the republicans along with you, and they wouldn't know what hit them.. A double whammy for you liberal types.



Tim-

 

[Hicup]

By the way, anyone wanting to see what the true effects of manipulating the MW will do simply need to look at the costs of goods in Canada to that of the cost of goods in America? Take any electronics as an example.. Any produce, at the super market.. Are we to believe that a laptop make by HP, manufactured mostly in Asia costs more in Canada than it does in the US, when the dollar is almost on par?

Tim-

 

[radioman]

By the way, anyone wanting to see what the true effects of manipulating the MW will do simply need to look at the costs of goods in Canada to that of the cost of goods in America? Take any electronics as an example.. Any produce, at the super market.. Are we to believe that a laptop make by HP, manufactured mostly in Asia costs more in Canada than it does in the US, when the dollar is almost on par?

Tim-

--------------
I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Are you saying the same products cost more in Canada than the USA?
That this increased price is due to Canada's higher MW?

 

[radioman]

Now, when McDonald's can't hire anyone at the threshold of working for a living of sucking the teat for a living, what do you suppose ole McDonalds will be forced to do?






Tim-

----------------------
Hire illegal immigrants?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

To be honest, I argue the opposite. The best thing the liberals could do for the poor is to eliminate the minimum wage in a declining economy. Right now those evil bastards we call corporate America are riding the pines. Welfare and all of those 121 entitlements actually make working for minimum wage a losing proposition. Eliminating the MW would cause all those people to either go on welfare or take more welfare, and live off it exclusively like so many do. Now, when McDonald's can't hire anyone at the threshold of working for a living of sucking the teat for a living, what do you suppose ole McDonalds will be forced to do?

See, this is why liberals are always wrong headed about achieving their goals. You want higher wages, fine, eliminate the MW, and it will happen relatively quickly. Good way to suck in the republicans along with you, and they wouldn't know what hit them.. A double whammy for you liberal types.



Tim-

You're concluding that no one would be willing to work for less than minimum wage - already not true, people do it all the time.

 

[radioman]

Welfare and all of those 121 entitlements actually make working for minimum wage a losing proposition. Eliminating the MW would cause all those people to either go on welfare or take more welfare, and live off it exclusively like so many do.





Tim-

-------------------
????
You seem to be arguing against yourself.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

Is he winning or losing?

 

[Redress]

That's called exponential growth... You should stick to politics, economics isn't your forte...


Tim-

Actually it is not called exponential growth. Exponential growth involves growth at a rate over time. This is talking about the relative growth rates as the result of a discreet event. Nice try, but clearly economics isn't your forte...