Interesting video explains problems with the minimum wage.

[Neomalthusian]

This was relevant before minimum wage was put into effect - now that we've started it, we have to keep going. The moment you end that in Corporate America, the moment **** hits the fan. It's just not possible to do away with it - businesses are not that honest and people are not that smart.

We don't have to keep it going. Why is it not possible to do away with it? Maybe what you mean is that you think the negative effects of abolishing it would outweigh the positive effects. Well, what would the negative effects really be?

If there were no federal minimum wage, would anyone work for, say, a penny an hour? Generally, the easy answer is no, because a penny an hour can't buy the worker anything. What about a dollar an hour? Would anyone work full-time for $2,080 a year? Again, the easy answer is no, because that does not afford them anything.

Abolishing the minimum wage would leave it to float according to many variables. Some places the lowest wage in the area would be less than $7, and in others it might be well over $10. It would vary by region, industry, company, cost-of-living, and many other factors. But it would not result in people suddenly working for nickels. I assure you, the jobs I hire for... I would not be willing to LET someone work for me for minimum wage, because I need people I can trust doing this work, and frankly I wouldn't be able to trust a person who was willing to do the type of work I need them to do if they were willing to accept something so paltry in return.

Similarly, people who hire minimum wage workers often will not hire overqualified people... people are ASKING to work minimum wage jobs and, if they have advanced degrees for example, they are not even given a chance. That's because the minimum wage employer needs a worker who won't leave after 5 days or the moment they can find a higher paying one. They need someone who will be actually happy to work that job for a while, which often ends up being a high school student or someone who does not actually need much or any money to maintain their current living situation.

 

[cpwill]

I wanted you to try to see the actual people that those statistics represent...Apparently, you can't...

I can. That's half my wifes' family. Unfortunately, that half of my family is african american, mostly high school drop-outs, and one female in our group is 17 with an 18-month old. So if you raise the minimum wage to $10, then you are putting them out of work, as their labor is not worth $10 + taxes + costs of regulation + training + required minimum benefits + risk.

So I have to ask. Why do you want to put the poorer members of my family, including at least one unmarried teenage mother, out of work?

Are you aware that putting our at-risk populations out of the labor force was the intention of the minimum wage law? That it was put in place precisely to wipe out people like my sister in law?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

We don't have to keep it going. Why is it not possible to do away with it? Maybe what you mean is that you think the negative effects of abolishing it would outweigh the positive effects. Well, what would the negative effects really be?

If there were no federal minimum wage, would anyone work for, say, a penny an hour? Generally, the easy answer is no, because a penny an hour can't buy the worker anything. What about a dollar an hour? Would anyone work full-time for $2,080 a year? Again, the easy answer is no, because that does not afford them anything.

Abolishing the minimum wage would leave it to float according to many variables. Some places the lowest wage in the area would be less than $7, and in others it might be well over $10. It would vary by region, industry, company, cost-of-living, and many other factors. But it would not result in people suddenly working for nickels. I assure you, the jobs I hire for... I would not be willing to LET someone work for me for minimum wage, because I need people I can trust doing this work, and frankly I wouldn't be able to trust a person who was willing to do the type of work I need them to do if they were willing to accept something so paltry in return.

Similarly, people who hire minimum wage workers often will not hire overqualified people... people are ASKING to work minimum wage jobs and, if they have advanced degrees for example, they are not even given a chance. That's because the minimum wage employer needs a worker who won't leave after 5 days or the moment they can find a higher paying one. They need someone who will be actually happy to work that job for a while, which often ends up being a high school student or someone who does not actually need much or any money to maintain their current living situation.

I would need verifiable proof that the laundry list of potential issues wouldn't happen before I support doing away with it.

Which isn't possible. Everything you're stating is under the belief that "it won't" and "it can't" - which is not how reality works.

 

[Neomalthusian]

I wanted you to try to see the actual people that those statistics represent...Apparently, you can't...

It's easy to whip out the violin and play a sad song about struggling families, but it does not demonstrate a good reason for hiking the minimum wage.

If you want to see whether I am able to "see" actual people who struggle, I would be happy to talk about them, their parents/families, mental illness, addiction issues, fetal exposure to substances, trauma, abuse, neglect, disabilities, crime, legal guardianship, foster care, family planning, education, marriage, welfare programs, health, medical care, health insurance, cultures and sub-cultures, and many other topics that play integrally into the individual lives of people across the country. And I can happily get down onto the individual psychological level and we could talk for hours about horrible things that have happened to people (not their fault) as well as choices they themselves made and the whole nine yards about actual people and the dynamic reasons they struggle.

But not in the context of a federal minimum wage law debate. That is not the appropriate context. How well one understands struggling people actually has relatively little bearing on whether hiking the federal minimum wage is a good idea.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

The video oversimplifies the issue

because it is a very simple issue, the gubbermint needs to stay the hell out of our businesses its as simple as that.

 

[Neomalthusian]

I would need verifiable proof that the laundry list of potential issues wouldn't happen before I support doing away with it.

Which isn't possible. Everything you're stating is under the belief that "it won't" and "it can't" - which is not how reality works.

Verifiable proof of future events is impossible no matter what policy route is chosen. You're right. It isn't possible.

In the end, I'm not actually trying to convince anyone to support eliminating the minimum wage altogether. I present it as a thought experiment to remind some people (not necessarily just you) of the self-regulatory aspects of trade (including trading labor for a wage). The market regulates penny-an-hour jobs out of existence because no one will work them, and finds its approximate market clearing price for labor. And in some cases, states and/or cities implement minimum wages (a number of them already do), and I am not suggesting that state or local governments should not be able to do this.

 

[Juanita]

I can. That's half my wifes' family. Unfortunately, that half of my family is african american, mostly high school drop-outs, and one female in our group is 17 with an 18-month old. So if you raise the minimum wage to $10, then you are putting them out of work, as their labor is not worth $10 + taxes + costs of regulation + training + required minimum benefits + risk.

So I have to ask. Why do you want to put the poorer members of my family, including at least one unmarried teenage mother, out of work?

Are you aware that putting our at-risk populations out of the labor force was the intention of the minimum wage law? That it was put in place precisely to wipe out people like my sister in law?

Are you saying that these family members have minimum wage jobs but are worthless? If they are working and doing such a worthless job, why haven't they been fired?

 

[AngryOldGuy]

what can a 17 year old mom do?

 

[Juanita]

We don't have to keep it going. Why is it not possible to do away with it? Maybe what you mean is that you think the negative effects of abolishing it would outweigh the positive effects. Well, what would the negative effects really be?

If there were no federal minimum wage, would anyone work for, say, a penny an hour? Generally, the easy answer is no, because a penny an hour can't buy the worker anything. What about a dollar an hour? Would anyone work full-time for $2,080 a year? Again, the easy answer is no, because that does not afford them anything.

Abolishing the minimum wage would leave it to float according to many variables. Some places the lowest wage in the area would be less than $7, and in others it might be well over $10. It would vary by region, industry, company, cost-of-living, and many other factors. But it would not result in people suddenly working for nickels. I assure you, the jobs I hire for... I would not be willing to LET someone work for me for minimum wage, because I need people I can trust doing this work, and frankly I wouldn't be able to trust a person who was willing to do the type of work I need them to do if they were willing to accept something so paltry in return.

Similarly, people who hire minimum wage workers often will not hire overqualified people... people are ASKING to work minimum wage jobs and, if they have advanced degrees for example, they are not even given a chance. That's because the minimum wage employer needs a worker who won't leave after 5 days or the moment they can find a higher paying one. They need someone who will be actually happy to work that job for a while, which often ends up being a high school student or someone who does not actually need much or any money to maintain their current living situation.

Overqualified people are "asking" for these minimum wage jobs? Gee, wasn't that one of my points--that educated people will take what they can get, even a minimum wage job, just to survive? Thank you..

 

[Neomalthusian]

Are you saying that these family members have minimum wage jobs but are worthless? If they are working and doing such a worthless job, why haven't they been fired?

Of course he isn't saying any that. What in his post would have given you that idea? :roll:

Overqualified people are "asking" for these minimum wage jobs? Gee, wasn't that one of my points--that educated people will take what they can get, even a minimum wage job, just to survive? Thank you..

You're trying really hard to keep this discussion centered on a simple appeal to pity, despite the fact that much more compelling arguments have been presented.

 

[Juanita]

what can a 17 year old mom do?

Finish her education, find a babysitter and get a decent job...

 

[Juanita]

It's easy to whip out the violin and play a sad song about struggling families, but it does not demonstrate a good reason for hiking the minimum wage.

If you want to see whether I am able to "see" actual people who struggle, I would be happy to talk about them, their parents/families, mental illness, addiction issues, fetal exposure to substances, trauma, abuse, neglect, disabilities, crime, legal guardianship, foster care, family planning, education, marriage, welfare programs, health, medical care, health insurance, cultures and sub-cultures, and many other topics that play integrally into the individual lives of people across the country. And I can happily get down onto the individual psychological level and we could talk for hours about horrible things that have happened to people (not their fault) as well as choices they themselves made and the whole nine yards about actual people and the dynamic reasons they struggle.

But not in the context of a federal minimum wage law debate. That is not the appropriate context. How well one understands struggling people actually has relatively little bearing on whether hiking the federal minimum wage is a good idea.

I have not brought up social problems and was not talking about people with those sorts of problems.... I'm talking about those hard working people who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own due to businesses shipped overseas, downsizing, etc...

 

[Juanita]

Of course he isn't saying any that. What in his post would have given you that idea? :roll:



You're trying really hard to keep this discussion centered on a simple appeal to pity, despite the fact that much more compelling arguments have been presented.

PITY? Where the hell did you get that idea from? If a person is worth $7.25 hr, they are worth $10.00 an hour at least..if not, fire their asses and hire someone that is....The Right to Work states have kept wages down, but everyone deserves a living wage....

 

[cpwill]

Are you saying that these family members have minimum wage jobs but are worthless? If they are working and doing such a worthless job, why haven't they been fired?

Not at all. Clearly their labor is worth at least what they are being paid now, although I think one of them is probably going to end up doing much better for himself in the future. But not, however, if you are successful. Because their labor is not currently worth the additional floor that you wish to put on wages, you are moving the bottom rung of the ladder out of their grasp, and so he will never be able to climb.

 

[cpwill]

what can a 17 year old mom do?

As near as I can tell from her FB posts, work part time enough to earn money enough to go party with her friends on a regular basis


We offered to take / adopt and raise the child when she was born, and then we offered to make both of them my legal dependent so that they could move out to Okinawa with us, and she could finish her education, start working, build experience, and be ready to be an adult away from her mothers' house (you are never really an adult in your parents house), but :shrug: "I woulda lost the check", so.....

 

[cpwill]

PITY? Where the hell did you get that idea from? If a person is worth $7.25 hr, they are worth $10.00 an hour at least..

That's an amazing piece of math. By the same logic, if they are worth $10, then aren't they worth $12.50 at least? Or is it done by inclusive percentage, and they would be worth 13.33 each? If the lower, if they are worth $12.50 an hour, aren't they worth $15 an hour at least? $17.50? Does the magical "at least" button stop working at some point, or is this the kind of thing that if only we realized its' power we could all be raking in $3K / hour?

if not, fire their asses and hire someone that is...

So you are in favor of creating permanent unemployment among our most vulnerable populations? And yet you try to use an emotional description of their plight to others?

Hey, my sister has made some bad decisions in her life, and they left her raising a baby in a tough spot. **** her, fire her ass, am I right? Thanks. :roll:

The Right to Work states have kept wages down, but everyone deserves a living wage....

A nice sentiment that falls apart under investigation, and has painful consequences (mostly for the poor) when put into practice.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

When you employ someone, you will make a profit or you will discontinue their employment
anything that makes that employee most expensive is either money you can not add to the bottomline
or have paid in a higher wage to purchase a higher quality employee. Government interference always
seems to have unintended consequences but they are not. The minimum wage serves to keep
a class of people unemployed and dependent on the government. Now that the 40 work week is under assault
by Obamacare and people being converted to part time hah just you wait and see.

 

[Cameron]

It will sound too simplistic to some to be true, but it is a very accurate summary. Thanks for posting it.

I'd say the video is an accurate summary of something. But it ignores the actual questions involved in the minimum wage debate, which are:

1. What is (or should be) the value of the services?

2. Can employers handle that increase in cost?

Talking abstractly about what happens when people demand more compensation for services than the people paying benefit from those services does not saying anything about whether raising the minimum wage from X to Y will actually cause the effects it is talking about.

I would say it should be viewed as a cautionary video more than anything else.

I feel like an effective counter-point to this video would be to say, sure, homeowner may not want to pay $1 extra per hour to the person who mows his lawn. But if homeowner owns his home by virtue of, for example, his sale of discretionary (i.e. non-necessary) goods, think about how much more money he could make if every homeowner paid the people who mowed their lawns $1 more per hour. That would be a whole lot of people with more discretionary income to buy his products. The few dollars of extra cost to him could enable him to make hundreds of dollars of extra profit.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

There's a hell of a lot more involved than just this. The problem with the video is it is far too simplistic. There are countries with high minimum wages that have lower unemployment than countries with a low minimum wage, the economical effects of a minimum wage are greater than what's presented in a single biased video.

Then there are countries like Germany which have zero minimum wage, and have very, very low unemployment.

There certainly are other factors, but when you insert a blanket minimum wage, you're locking out anybody whose value is worth than that level.

 

[274ina]

Why bother with modern propoganda?

This issue was settled in the 1880 to 1920 era.

If you dont like it, go to your slave haven of CHina or India.

And the flip side argument is, what makes a bunch of peper pushers in Wall Street worth $200mil year each?

Labor arbitrage is not a skill...............

 

[Neomalthusian]

PITY? Where the hell did you get that idea from? If a person is worth $7.25 hr, they are worth $10.00 an hour at least..

His post made no comment about what they were worth as people. This entire discussion has nothing to do with the value of human beings. Wages are not the value placed on human lives. Wages are the value of the labor/tasks one party trades for money. The value of the tasks they are agreeing to complete are worth that much (to the person paying that wage). As for the pity question,

I provided a link to a description of what an appeal to pity (or argumentum ad misericordiam) is. Check it out. It's your entire argument on this topic (so far).

everyone deserves a living wage....

This is not a real concept though. It only exists in theory.

 

[Neomalthusian]

I have not brought up social problems and was not talking about people with those sorts of problems.... I'm talking about those hard working people who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own due to businesses shipped overseas, downsizing, etc...

Haha, so you want me to really "see" and understand who these individuals are, how sad their story is, etc., but don't want any of the issues I mentioned to be permissible in the discussion. I see. That is weak.

Let me help you. The only halfway solid argument in favor the minimum wage hike is a macroeconomic analysis. Not a series of appeals to pity about the sadness and struggle of individuals.

 

[YoungConserv]

Why bother with modern propoganda?

This issue was settled in the 1880 to 1920 era.

If you dont like it, go to your slave haven of CHina or India.

And the flip side argument is, what makes a bunch of peper pushers in Wall Street worth $200mil year each?

Labor arbitrage is not a skill...............

There's no such thing as settled law.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

everyone deserves a living wage.....

and I deserve a Corvette and a Swedish supermodel mistress (but the wife won't approve the mistress)

 

[wbcoleman]

PITY? Where the hell did you get that idea from? If a person is worth $7.25 hr, they are worth $10.00 an hour at least..if not, fire their asses and hire someone that is....The Right to Work states have kept wages down, but everyone deserves a living wage....

Hell, they're worth $50/hour, at least! Probably $75!