ICE fascist scumbags at it again.

[Grizzly Adams]

The woman will not be given a reason why she was deported,

She was given a reason. That reason, with almost 100% certainty, was that she was inadmissible pursuant to Section 212(a)(7)(A)(i)(I) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, intending immigrant without an immigrant visa. And she was almost certainly given even more than that.

and MAGA like... @Grizzly Adams

lol

their role is not to question Donald but to simply accept his edicts

I think it's hilarious that you think Donald Trump is looking at each of the approximately one million people who enter the US every day and issuing "edicts" about which of them can and cannot enter.

Besides, her skin was somewhat darker and she had tattoos so it's not like they want the likes of her anywhere near them anyway.

Never even saw a picture of her until someone posted a YouTube preview this morning. But it's cute that you're trying to play the "YOU'RE RACIIIIIIIIIIISSSST!!!!!!!!" card. It lets everyone know you've got nothing but pathetic, used up tropes to throw.

 

[devildavid]

Sorry, I disagree.

Non-violent revolutions have succeeded to some extent or another numerous times within the last century:

• The Indian Independence Movement
• The American Civil Rights Movement
• The Velvet Revolution
• The Singing Revolution
• The People Power Revolution
• The Orange Revolution
• The Rose Revolution
• The early part of the Tunisian Revolution
• The Berlin Wall Fall
• The Sudanese Revolution
• The early part of the Anti-Apartheid Movement

Where there's a will, there's a way. You are not powerless. You just need to find the will.

Of course, if you are really "powerless", why are you here? Why bother talking about this at all? Is it actually just a giant bitch fest, an opportunity to harvest dopamine by being ugly to each other? I really need to know.

Those examples do not apply. Many of them were in countries without any democratic process at all. Americans can’t suddenly change their ways and think that this is as drastic a situation as the ones for all the examples you provided. Most Americans are like the frogs in the water that is being slowly turned up. And a large part of the population voted for and support Trump and seem to revel in his corruption as if he is instead a great reformer. You should really be listing how dictatorships have often risen to power. We are more on that path, than any desparate path like those you listed. Those people were already being extremely repressed beyond what is happening right now in our country. We are actually more on the path of heading toward autocracy with the willing support of enough people while most don’t really believe it could happen here. There is no real feeling of panic that we are heading toward it. We always think the next election will correct our course.

Posting here is not a sign of having power, but just the opposite. It is blowing off steam because there literally is nothing that I or others can personally do that would not make our own lives worse and gain us nothing. Yes, this is just a giant bitch fest. The only power individuals have is their vote. It is that power that failed us and put us in this position. As long as future elections are held, we still have that power and can exercise it. We can’t impeach Trump or make Congress do it if they feel it will only hurt them politically. They can be voted out if their constituents think that they are not doing their job representing their interests. Our system is designed in such a way that protests and marches only get you so far. People have been bringing court cases against the Trump administration but we never had a case of an administration flouting the courts so brazenly. This is an unprecedented problem. The only thing the courts can now do is have officers of the law enforcement their decisions. Usually a president abides by Supreme Court decisions. But I can’t make the justice department use their officers to enforce the law to make Trump comply.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Say what now? I think you might not have understood what was being said. I wasn't talking about the victims, I was talking about the American "left", who seem content to simply bitch, without really doing anything.

Not every comment lends itself well to a Nazi analogy, you guys need to stop leaning on that so heavily.

Very weird post, bud. Maybe it wasn't meant for me?

I do not agree that there is such a thing as a unified "left". I do believe that the Democratic Party is not up to the task of saving democracy. What they want is to control; they are not into bipartisan anything unless it helps them gain power. It's what political parties lead to since they are nothing but sanctioned corruption.

But regardless, the MAGA government is not representing anyone but itself. And I am not your bud. And it should not be hard to figure out wtf I meant. I meant that there is a division between governments and the people. If there was an actual majority promoting this shit you would have a case. But I can tell you as someone who lives here, that it is far from reality.

 

[bomberfox]

Say what now? I think you might not have understood what was being said. I wasn't talking about the victims, I was talking about the American "left", who seem content to simply bitch, without really doing anything.

Not every comment lends itself well to a Nazi analogy, you guys need to stop leaning on that so heavily.

Very weird post, bud. Maybe it wasn't meant for me?

Well considering i do a lot besides violence im not simply content. Its a recognition that the ruling capitalist class has completely taken over the state apparatus and has ensured that not even the justice system will challenge their power and will in fact make them immune as well as their enforcers immune.

 

[OlNate]

Well considering i do a lot besides violence im not simply content. Its a recognition that the ruling capitalist class has completely taken over the state apparatus and has ensured that not even the justice system will challenge their power and will in fact make them immune as well as their enforcers immune.

That is one convincing way to justify inaction.

Since someone brought up Nazis, you do know that their success was due as much to the self described "powerless" class as it was their supporters, right?

What would you say your access to power is today, compared to when you (America) threw off the British? Do you think you have more or less?

In terms of the non violent actions you are taking, how would you rate the results?

 

[OlNate]

I do not agree that there is such a thing as a unified "left". I do believe that the Democratic Party is not up to the task of saving democracy. What they want is to control; they are not into bipartisan anything unless it helps them gain power. It's what political parties lead to since they are nothing but sanctioned corruption.

But regardless, the MAGA government is not representing anyone but itself. And I am not your bud. And it should not be hard to figure out wtf I meant. I meant that there is a division between governments and the people. If there was an actual majority promoting this shit you would have a case. But I can tell you as someone who lives here, that it is far from reality.

You seem upset and I've already dealt with one angry person in this thread, come back when you can control your tone. I wasn't rude to you.

And everyone's my bud, bud, even those who are not. It's a Canadian thing, and my personal writing style, deal with it however you need to, up to and including putting me on ignore, trust me, my heart will go on... hehe

In the meantime, let your primary activism continue to be keyboard warrior shit on the Internet and dumb Nazi analogies, I'm sure it will solve everything, and your dedication to it highlights you as someone who really gives a **** about what they're supposedly standing up for. Good for you.

(See, i can be snarky too... lol)

By the way, i totally agree with you about the Democrat party. I mean, sure, they do appear to be the less harm choice, but really they're just a little nicer when they bend you over. Maybe it's time to demand something better? Or have you all just thrown in the towel? I bet you pick it up again when it really starts to impact you, rather than it falling on the rest of the world.

Or maybe not. It's been a minute since you guys have seemed overly interested in fighting anything other than each other.

 

[bomberfox]

That is one convincing way to justify inaction.

Since someone brought up Nazis, you do know that their success was due as much to the self described "powerless" class as it was their supporters, right?

What would you say your access to power is today, compared to when you (America) threw off the British? Do you think you have more or less?

In terms of the non violent actions you are taking, how would you rate the results?

Not really good which is why i am at the point i am at. The problem with your analogy is the nazis were a middle class and industrial magnate movement. I would say i have more because i dont have to bow down to a king who is really a nepo baby who was born into it. Capitalist democracy is a step up from feudalism and monarchy but now that the ruling class is filled with the biggest capitalists, we are returning to feudalism and now potentially dealing with monarchy like conditions. This is likely because we failed to suppress the power of capital.

Ive gone to several protests, helped run the KKK out of my town, done phone banking once a week for democratic campaigns, know what tear gas is like due to engaging in demonstrations, etc.

That said i dont think i could ever be angry with you .

 

[OlNate]

Those examples do not apply. Many of them were in countries without any democratic process at all. Americans can’t suddenly change their ways and think that this is as drastic a situation as the ones for all the examples you provided. Most Americans are like the frogs in the water that is being slowly turned up. And a large part of the population voted for and support Trump and seem to revel in his corruption as if he is instead a great reformer. You should really be listing how dictatorships have often risen to power. We are more on that path, than any desparate path like those you listed. Those people were already being extremely repressed beyond what is happening right now in our country. We are actually more on the path of heading toward autocracy with the willing support of enough people while most don’t really believe it could happen here. There is no real feeling of panic that we are heading toward it. We always think the next election will correct our course.

Posting here is not a sign of having power, but just the opposite. It is blowing off steam because there literally is nothing that I or others can personally do that would not make our own lives worse and gain us nothing. Yes, this is just a giant bitch fest. The only power individuals have is their vote. It is that power that failed us and put us in this position. As long as future elections are held, we still have that power and can exercise it. We can’t impeach Trump or make Congress do it if they feel it will only hurt them politically. They can be voted out if their constituents think that they are not doing their job representing their interests. Our system is designed in such a way that protests and marches only get you so far. People have been bringing court cases against the Trump administration but we never had a case of an administration flouting the courts so brazenly. This is an unprecedented problem. The only thing the courts can now do is have officers of the law enforcement their decisions. Usually a president abides by Supreme Court decisions. But I can’t make the justice department use their officers to enforce the law to make Trump comply.

While i disagree that these examples "do not count", especially since America is on that list, you get the like for admitting the obvious - that this is nothing more than a giant bitch fest.

Given the way America has given in to the division that is the real driver behind your helplessness, do you think that Americans will ever recognize this and attempt to get on the same page? Because rejecting this division and turning your anger on the people who actually deserve it, aka your ruling class, is about the only way I see for you guys to get out from under this.

Is it time to give up on America, basically?

 

[bomberfox]

Now here’s the fun part. Were violent revolutions wrong for deposing the existing order or did they create more strife with their actions afterward? In the French revolution, the jacobins were not wrong in deposing the king and in a monarchy thats well the only way to unseat one. The problem happened after with the terror which also went insanely out of control.

I personally think violent revolutions against despots is not wrong, but you have to be extra careful what you do after the revolution. The problem with the American revolution is only one class of people were truly liberated which put them in power over everyone else.

 

[OlNate]

Not really good which is why i am at the point i am at. The problem with your analogy is the nazis were a middle class and industrial magnate movement. I would say i have more because i dont have to bow down to a king who is really a nepo baby who was born into it. Capitalist democracy is a step up from feudalism and monarchy but now that the ruling class is filled with the biggest capitalists, we are returning to feudalism and now potentially dealing with monarchy like conditions. This is likely because we failed to suppress the power of capital.

Ive gone to several protests, helped run the KKK out of my town, done phone banking once a week for democratic campaigns, know what tear gas is like due to engaging in demonstrations, etc.

That said i dont think i could ever be angry with you .

Props for getting real work done. And you better not be angry at me, I'm too adorable. I'm just doing the contrarian thing today because debating maga has simply gotten too mind numbingly boring.

That said, I think the real problem is outlined in, most recently, it's not like I haven't been hacking away at this windmill for a while now, in post 108. Division has you hamstrung, not the government. What do you think of that statement?

 

[bomberfox]

Props for getting real work done. And you better not be angry at me, I'm too adorable. I'm just doing the contrarian thing today because debating maga has simply gotten too mind numbingly boring.

That said, I think the real problem is outlined in, most recently, it's not like I haven't been hacking away at this windmill for a while now, in post 108. Division has you hamstrung, not the government. What do you think of that statement?

I think the government itself has us all hamstrung in many ways but not quite as much as division. Hell we dont even have class consciousness because we have a very long history of groveling to the richest Americans.

 

[OlNate]

Now here’s the fun part. Were violent revolutions wrong for deposing the existing order or did they create more strife with their actions afterward? In the French revolution, the jacobins were not wrong in deposing the king and in a monarchy thats well the only way to unseat one. The problem happened after with the terror which also went insanely out of control.

I would say no, they were not wrong, they were simply not evolved enough to employ better options - options that weren't available to them at the time.

But, as I posted earlier, in reference to your French revolution example, it did lead to more strife, if not directly creating it, so I guess what's the difference, in terms of deciding whether or not the same tactic should be employed today?

 

[devildavid]

You seem upset and I've already dealt with one angry person in this thread, come back when you can control your tone. I wasn't rude to you.

And everyone's my bud, bud, even those who are not. It's a Canadian thing, and my personal writing style, deal with it however you need to, up to and including putting me on ignore, trust me, my heart will go on... hehe

In the meantime, let your primary activism continue to be keyboard warrior shit on the Internet and dumb Nazi analogies, I'm sure it will solve everything, and your dedication to it highlights you as someone who really gives a **** about what they're supposedly standing up for. Good for you.

(See, i can be snarky too... lol)

By the way, i totally agree with you about the Democrat party. I mean, sure, they do appear to be the less harm choice, but really they're just a little nicer when they bend you over. Maybe it's time to demand something better? Or have you all just thrown in the towel? I bet you pick it up again when it really starts to impact you, rather than it falling on the rest of the world.

Or maybe not. It's been a minute since you guys have seemed overly interested in fighting anything other than each other.

The Democratic Party has not been hijacked by a demagogue like Trump who shits on the Constitution and the rule of law. When Biden tried to relieve student debt the courts shot him down and he kept trying ways to work around them but eventually he had no choice and complied with them. The Democratic Party still follows the rules and traditions. This alone makes them a far superior party at this point. As long as Trump runs and owns the Republican Party they will be the party of demagoguery and corruption. They will be the party that openly favors big money and screws over the little guy. They will be the party that ignores the parts of the constitution that get in their way of doing what they want. I will never vote for Republicans in any federal elections again until they discard Trump, and more importantly, Trumpism. Trumpism is openly anti-American.

 

[bomberfox]

I would say no, they were not wrong, they were simply not evolved enough to employ better options - options that weren't available to them at the time.

But, as I posted earlier, in reference to your French revolution example, it did lead to more strife, if not directly creating it, so I guess what's the difference, in terms of deciding whether or not the same tactic should be employed today?

It lead to more strife because of what the jacobins did after the revolution IMO. Is it a matter of being more evolved? I dont know, in evolutionary theory there is no such thing as more evolved but colloquially maybe.

The difference could be in what we would use after such revolution. I think the absence of terror and a willingness to free all of the people might make things different.

 

[bomberfox]

The Democratic Party has not been hijacked by a demagogue like Trump who shits on the Constitution and the rule of law. When Biden tried to relieve student debt the courts shot him down and he kept trying ways to work around them but eventually he had no choice and complied with them. The Democratic Party still follows the rules and traditions. This alone makes them a far superior party at this point. As long as Trump runs and owns the Republican Party they will be the party of demagoguery and corruption. They will be the party that openly favors big money and screws over the little guy. They will be the party that ignores the parts of the constitution that get in their way of doing what they want. I will never vote for Republicans in any federal elections again until they discard Trump, and more importantly, Trumpism. Trumpism is openly anti-American.

I dont think ill ever vote for a republican ever again. I dont really forgive easily. Plus they exclusively serve class interests that are diametrically opposed to mine.

 

[OlNate]

I think the government itself has us all hamstrung in many ways but not quite as much as division. Hell we dont even have class consciousness because we have a very long history of groveling to the richest Americans.

K, you're making it hard to be contrarian when you drop truth like this... hehe

I couldn't agree more. So, with that in mind, do you think that the kind of "debates" we see here help or hinder your efforts? Or is it all just some weird, self defeating juxtaposition to that Rage Against the Machine song: **** you, I'm going to do what you tell me.

See, people keep saying that what goes down here doesn't matter, that it's "blowing off steam", etc. But to me it looks like a lot of DP members are content to have this be just one more platform to bolster that division. Is that wise? Would promoting more constructive discussions and ignoring trolls actually help to melt this division a little, at least for those of us that frequent this place? Do enough people have the self discipline to drive this change?

 

[devildavid]

While i disagree that these examples "do not count", especially since America is on that list, you get the like for admitting the obvious - that this is nothing more than a giant bitch fest.

Given the way America has given in to the division that is the real driver behind your helplessness, do you think that Americans will ever recognize this and attempt to get on the same page? Because rejecting this division and turning your anger on the people who actually deserve it, aka your ruling class, is about the only way I see for you guys to get out from under this.

Is it time to give up on America, basically?

They do not count because they didn’t happen over a short time frame and they were not in democratic countries like the US. They were a long time coming in regimes that had long been repressive. It isn’t the ruling class who did this, it was the large number of the electorate who fell for a demagogue. The problem is the people and how they are easily manipulated to vote against their own self interest by a demagogue who inflames their hates, fears, and prejudices.

There will be a federal level midterm election in 2026 and the results of that will go a long way in determining the path America will take. It isn’t time to give up at all because a lot can change before then. Trump may lose momentum and interest in his job, like he usually does. If there is enough resistance he won’t be up to the hard work required to force his idiotic agenda on the country.

 

[devildavid]

I dont think ill ever vote for a republican ever again. I dont really forgive easily. Plus they exclusively serve class interests that are diametrically opposed to mine.

I only won’t vote Republican on the federal level. My state has had some decent Republican governors who were nothing like Trump and the new and corrupt federal Republicans.

 

[bomberfox]

K, you're making it hard to be contrarian when you drop truth like this... hehe

I couldn't agree more. So, with that in mind, do you think that the kind of "debates" we see here help or hinder your efforts? Or is it all just some weird, self defeating juxtaposition to that Rage Against the Machine song: **** you, I'm not going to do what you tell me.

See, people keep saying that what goes down here doesn't matter, that it's "blowing off steam", etc. But to me it looks like a lot of DP members are content to have this be just one more platform to bolster that division. Is that wise? Would promoting more constructive discussions and ignoring trolls actually help to melt this division a little, at least for those of us that frequent this place? Do enough people have the self discipline to drive this change?

Fixed . Personally i come here to see what is popping up in the news and vent. Yeah im in a hellova punk mood a lot of times and theres some truth in that song (that police miss) (some who work forces are the same that burn crosses). (I love political music).

I want these discussions, im not happy being worried and raging all the time. I dont have a need to have someone to rage at. If Trump died tomorrow and his admin overthrown i would breathe a huge sigh of relief and maybe my depression would get better.

 

[bomberfox]

They do not count because they didn’t happen over a short time frame and they were not in democratic countries like the US. They were a long time coming in regimes that had long been repressive. It isn’t the ruling class who did this, it was the large number of the electorate who fell for a demagogue. The problem is the people and how they are easily manipulated to vote against their own self interest by a demagogue who inflames their hates, fears, and prejudices.

There will be a federal level midterm election in 2026 and the results of that will go a long way in determining the path America will take. It isn’t time to give up at all because a lot can change before then. Trump may lose momentum and interest in his job, like he usually does. If there is enough resistance he won’t be up to the hard work required to force his idiotic agenda on the country.

The ruling class setup the systems so of course it is their fault. This ignores the fact that the ruling class here concocted schemes to attack our education on so many fronts.

Trump himself is not the end all be all of our problems. Our problems are ultimately systematic in nature.

 

[OlNate]

The Democratic Party has not been hijacked by a demagogue like Trump who shits on the Constitution and the rule of law. When Biden tried to relieve student debt the courts shot him down and he kept trying ways to work around them but eventually he had no choice and complied with them. The Democratic Party still follows the rules and traditions. This alone makes them a far superior party at this point. As long as Trump runs and owns the Republican Party they will be the party of demagoguery and corruption. They will be the party that openly favors big money and screws over the little guy. They will be the party that ignores the parts of the constitution that get in their way of doing what they want. I will never vote for Republicans in any federal elections again until they discard Trump, and more importantly, Trumpism. Trumpism is openly anti-American.

I mean, yes, obviously Trump is a phenomenon, and i think you'd be better off with a Bazooka Joe gum wrapper as your president, but I would challenge Americans (i think you do this, I'm not calling you out personally) to not allow the shit show that is the current GOP to distract you from scrutinizing your own side - again, universal yous in play, no need to be defensive, if you were starting to feel that way.

The fact is, you had problems with class disparity and prioritizing corporations and the super rich class over the average American citizen well before Trump entered politics, and under the Democrats' watch as much as under the Republicans' watch.

So, yeah, getting slapped in the face might be "superior" to getting kicked in the balls, but neither would be called good... well, unless one is into that sort of thing, I don't judge...

 

[bomberfox]

I mean, yes, obviously Trump is a phenomenon, and i think you'd be better off with a Bazooka Joe gum wrapper as your president, but I would challenge Americans (i think you do this, I'm not calling you out personally) to not allow the shit show that is the current GOP to distract you from scrutinizing your own side - again, universal yous in play, no need to be defensive, if you were starting to feel that way.

The fact is, you had problems with class disparity and prioritizing corporations and the super rich class over the average American citizen well before Trump entered politics, and under the Democrats' watch as much as under the Republicans' watch.

So, yeah, getting slapped in the face might be "superior" to getting kicked in the balls, but neither would be called good... well, unless one is into that sort of thing, I don't judge...

I think America is just systematically incapable of bringing about different results and liberals only believe in whittling around the edges :|

 

[devildavid]

I mean, yes, obviously Trump is a phenomenon, and i think you'd be better off with a Bazooka Joe gum wrapper as your president, but I would challenge Americans (i think you do this, I'm not calling you out personally) to not allow the shit show that is the current GOP to distract you from scrutinizing your own side - again, universal yous in play, no need to be defensive, if you were starting to feel that way.

The fact is, you had problems with class disparity and prioritizing corporations and the super rich class over the average American citizen well before Trump entered politics, and under the Democrats' watch as much as under the Republicans' watch.

So, yeah, getting slapped in the face might be "superior" to getting kicked in the balls, but neither would be called good... well, unless one is into that sort of thing, I don't judge...

My side is normal politics. I have no problem with it. I am not looking for a revolution. However, I was a supporter of Bernie Sanders and he would have tried to put things in place through the normal political process that some felt were too much. He wasn’t calling for an overthrow of the rich. He wasn’t calling for a revolution. He was calling for real representation of the people. That is what I want. Get big money out of politics. There is no side doing this, but one side is flaunting it in our faces and pretending they are the party of the people. And their followers truly believe it. Until they wake up, we can never get the right people in government who actually represent the people.

 

[bomberfox]

My side is normal politics. I have no problem with it. I am not looking for a revolution. However, I was a supporter of Bernie Sanders and he would have tried to put things in place through the normal political process that some felt were too much. He wasn’t calling for an overthrow of the rich. He wasn’t calling for a revolution. He was calling for real representation of the people. That is what I want. Get big money out of politics. There is no side doing this, but one side is flaunting it in our faces and pretending they are the party of the people. And their followers truly believe it. Until they wake up, we can never get the right people in government who actually represent the people.

There is no getting money out of politics without the ability to suppress the power of capital and i think that will require its overthrow in order to even get a smidgeon.

 

[OlNate]

Fixed . Personally i come here to see what is popping up in the news and vent. Yeah im in a hellova punk mood a lot of times and theres some truth in that song (that police miss) (some who work forces are the same that burn crosses). (I love political music).

I want these discussions, im not happy being worried and raging all the time. I dont have a need to have someone to rage at. If Trump died tomorrow and his admin overthrown i would breathe a huge sigh of relief and maybe my depression would get better.

Your fix ****ed my point, I'm able to be mad at you again... Maybe I was being too vague in what I was trying to say.

I feel you. And I do sympathize.

But my very real concern is that the American left can come up with all kinds of reasons, some of which are even valid, why they just can't do anything about what's going on, while your country is impacting the rest of the world in some pretty harmful ways. We sit and chat and give each other the business, but right now someone is telling their family that they don't have a job, or someone is trying to find their wife because of what this thread is about, etc. We indulge in these discussions, but we don't even pay the issues enough respect to use the privilege that allows us to discuss these things calmly to discuss them calmly, to where real solutions don't seem to even matter - certainly not as much as knocking one's enemy over the head with some keyboard warrior jab. And let me be clear, I don't miss myself with these reproaches.

I guess I'm on the part of this journey where this bothers me. Maybe it's because I was reminded of my own marginalization and powerlessness this week - not wanting to go into details, but I think you're aware of my "stuff". Too many people think online outrage and lip service is doing something. It's just not. And if it's not, how does one figure they get to be superior? That their side is superior? Certainly one cannot say that based off of any results metric.