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ICE fascist scumbags at it again.

There is no getting money out of politics without the ability to suppress the power of capital and i think that will require its overthrow in order to even get a smidgeon.

I do see capitalism as an underlying problem but I don’t realistically see any strong support coming from any social class to replace it with something better for everyone. I like the work of E.F. Schumacher and his idea of economics as if people mattered. There is no perfect system and capitalism produces so much dazzling wealth that people fail to notices how few people get to enjoy it except from afar. Human beings tend to look up those who lord it over them. The only thing that changes is how those lords get there. But they always make everyone believe that they deserved and earned it, no matter how predatory their path to it is really is.
 
The party of Jesus Christ just wants to inflict as much pain as possible.
 
My side is normal politics. I have no problem with it. I am not looking for a revolution. However, I was a supporter of Bernie Sanders and he would have tried to put things in place through the normal political process that some felt were too much. He wasn’t calling for an overthrow of the rich. He wasn’t calling for a revolution. He was calling for real representation of the people. That is what I want. Get big money out of politics. There is no side doing this, but one side is flaunting it in our faces and pretending they are the party of the people. And their followers truly believe it. Until they wake up, we can never get the right people in government who actually represent the people.

Hehe... I bet it's no surprise that I'm a huge Bernie fan. His sin was being born too early, as well as indulging in sensationalism from time to time.

So, what do you think the best way to "wake up" people up is? Do you think the kind of discussions that DP has primarily come to feature are the answer? If not, what would be? And is it worth it to try, if only here? If you see the problem being primarily with the right, what can the left do to help? Is that something the left even ponders sincerely, or is the brawl too seductive to leave behind, irrespective of the cost?
 
You seem upset and I've already dealt with one angry person in this thread, come back when you can control your tone. I wasn't rude to you.

And everyone's my bud, bud, even those who are not. :) It's a Canadian thing, and my personal writing style, deal with it however you need to, up to and including putting me on ignore, trust me, my heart will go on... hehe

In the meantime, let your primary activism continue to be keyboard warrior shit on the Internet and dumb Nazi analogies, I'm sure it will solve everything, and your dedication to it highlights you as someone who really gives a **** about what they're supposedly standing up for. Good for you.

(See, i can be snarky too... lol)

By the way, i totally agree with you about the Democrat party. I mean, sure, they do appear to be the less harm choice, but really they're just a little nicer when they bend you over. Maybe it's time to demand something better? Or have you all just thrown in the towel? I bet you pick it up again when it really starts to impact you, rather than it falling on the rest of the world.

Or maybe not. It's been a minute since you guys have seemed overly interested in fighting anything other than each other.
Do not think that I am upset just because I said shit you do not agree with. I expressed that my name is not Bud. If you cannot accept my wishes, that is rude and on you. When a debater uses the "You seem upset" bullshit it is a form of gaslighting. It is also taking the argument to the person. Simply a bad look.

This is a debate forum. I am not a keyboard warrior. Stop the immature name-calling. But thanks for showing that whatever your argument is, it is weak.

And I am demanding something better. And if you think your neighbors are going to throw in the towel, then you have no clue who we are. Have some damn respect. I voted against MAGA. I protested and still do. I contacted every politician who had an address.

It seems to me that you are just wanting to provoke Americans and not debate.

Most rational people would not accept a position that blamed blacks in South Africa for apartheid. Just like it is not rational to blame anyone but those who support MAGA.
 
Do not think that I am upset just because I said shit you do not agree with. I expressed that my name is not Bud. If you cannot accept my wishes, that is rude and on you. When a debater uses the "You seem upset" bullshit it is a form of gaslighting. It is also taking the argument to the person. Simply a bad look.

This is a debate forum. I am not a keyboard warrior. Stop the immature name-calling. But thanks for showing that whatever your argument is, it is weak.

And I am demanding something better. And if you think your neighbors are going to throw in the towel, then you have no clue who we are. Have some damn respect. I voted against MAGA. I protested and still do. I contacted every politician who had an address.

It seems to me that you are just wanting to provoke Americans and not debate.

Most rational people would not accept a position that blamed blacks in South Africa for apartheid. Just like it is not rational to blame anyone but those who support MAGA.

Yeah, IDGAF, I've moved on and your approach is annoying.

Have a good one. I had the chat I wanted to have with the people I wanted to have it with.

(Look, I didn't even call ya bud...lol)
 
We can discuss some things in theory, so long as we recognize that there's no evidence supporting the claims beyond one person's say-so. SHould a CBP Officer have been "just yelling at the top of his lungs?" No. But I have my doubts that's what happened. Perhaps a raised voice in response to resistance to a command to follow the line structure. Is it possible it happened? Yes. Acceptable as described? No. Likely as described? Also, no.

Other aspects - the refusal itself or the holdover at the Honolulu FDC - are absolutely believable, and not at all outrageous. US law states (as cited earlier) that an alien bears the burden of proof when it comes to admissibility. CBP decided she had not met that burden and refused her admission. Is "too many clothes" a justification, by itself, to refuse an applicant for admission? I would say in almost all cases not. Could "too many clothes" be part of a broader collection of facts that contributed to the conclusion that she hadn't met her burden? Absolutely. Is it possible it happened? Yes. Acceptable as described? Probably not. Likely as described? Also, probably not. The story expands on the extent of the questioning, covering her employment, tattoos, and marriage. This is totally unsurprising and not even a little bit unjustified. Employment is a factor in considering ties to home country that compel her return; if she's unemployed, there's no motivation from that angle to return. If she's on a leave of absence, that's a little different. If she's on vacation time, that's even more different. I see nothing untoward in asking if her tattoos have a meaning. Having just seen an image of her sleeve in a post above, my first inclination would be to ask if she's an artist herself -- possibly seeking employment or performing work for hire. And it's entirely possible that's a standard question in that particular officer's process, as normal as asking about any criminal convictions or questions establishing alienage. And of course they're going to ask about her marriage -- that's a pretty strong motivator to not return home and instead attempt to adjust status (an intent for which at the time of application for admission makes a person inadmissible -- an intending immigrant -- and we've already established it's the alien's burden to overcome).

When it comes to the detention, I totally believe she was sent to the FDC for an overnight stay. According to CBP's Airport Wait Time page, "last Sunday" (5/18, based on the story's publication date of 5/23) saw the last passengers at HNL processed no later than noon. With no flights to work, they are extremely unlikely to have staff available to monitor her until her flight out the next day. Because the FDC is immediately adjacent to the airport it's far more cost-effective to park her there for the night than to pay two officers (at least, and probably more considering there was at least one other detainee awaiting a return flight) overtime all night until the next day's officers arrived. And it's possible she was held "with" murderers, as in "existed in the same detention facility as." The story clarifies that "she shared a cell with a woman from Fiji, who was also denied entry and waiting to be deported." I have a hard time getting worked up over the mere fact of co-existing within the same structure as "murder[ers] and drug offen[ders]." Is it possible it happened? Yes. Acceptable as described? Yes. Likely as described? Also, yes.

Was she denied phone contact with her family? Unknown. Should someone have made contact? Yes. Did it need to be her? Not necessarily. Is it possible it happened? Yes. Acceptable as described? No. Likely as described? Ehhhhhh, maybe even Steven.

Good post.

Nobody here knows what actually transpired with this woman. Because we are only hearing one side of the story. And the version being told by the woman is not passing the smell test.

Something happened. She was denied entry. But common sense suggests there are a lot of details missing from the story.

..
 
We {respectful snip, we're both kinda wordy}

hehe...see, this is why I like talking to you, Grizzly. I'm still trying to figure out how to do that without pissing you off, maybe I'm getting closer, but I really enjoyed reading this response, even though I'm still absolutely right and you're absolutely wrong. ;) lol

So, first I will say that I understand what you have said here, and I think I even understand how you came to land the way you have. It's not at all unreasonable, when partisan lens if factored in. In fact, with that taken into consideration, it's actually pretty open minded, you have given a lot more ground in the name of logic than I have experienced with a lot of conservative posters.

And, since we have established that we cannot really debate the topic, due to the rather convenient lack of available facts from the government's side, maybe you'll indulge me in looking at this from a different angle.

What is interesting to me in our exchange is that we are both coming at this from behind very different lenses, leading to potentially very different assumptions. Do you think it's possible that your assumptions are at all driven by your partisanship, in the same way mine would be driven by a lack of partisanship (seeing as I'm from a different country and am not bound to the American obligation of picking a side)? I mean, you have written a very long, detailed explanation of what you think happened, some of which I could make room for, some of which seems "shocking" (I'm neurodivergent, it's always shocking when someone disagrees with me, as I'm fairly certain I'm right all the time...lol), using the same information I have available, and we have come to totally different assumptions.

Is that an interesting enough tangent for you to participate in exploring? I would enjoy hearing your thoughts - especially if you keep writing like the above.
 
Good post.

Nobody here knows what actually transpired with this woman. Because we are only hearing one side of the story. And the version being told by the woman is not passing the smell test.

Something happened. She was denied entry. But common sense suggests there are a lot of details missing from the story.

..
Common sense can detect patterns of behavior and go from there.
 
To be fair, we're hearing (per the article headline) only her side of the story. It is still undetermined how they picked this particular tourist out of the line to do all this to. So I'm not going to start calling them names right now, but I am going to say that they sure have a lot of explaining to do!

I expect they can only mess with so many soldiers' spouses before somebody walks into the Russian embassy with a suitcase full of army technical manuals...
 
At least they didn't strip search her and throw her in jail for ten days without a phone call like Biden did. But that's a very low bar, and we can do better than this.
She was then put through a body cavity search before being paraded through the airport in handcuffs and taken to the federal detention center.
 
To be fair, we're hearing (per the article headline) only her side of the story. It is still undetermined how they picked this particular tourist out of the line to do all this to.
She was picked on before but now it seems they have permission to be more forceful with people with dark hair and tats


So I'm not going to start calling them names right now, but I am going to say that they sure have a lot of explaining to do!
That's fair
I expect they can only mess with so many soldiers' spouses before somebody walks into the Russian embassy with a suitcase full of army technical manuals...
Please explain.
 
Although foreign tourists’ spending in the US represents just 0.8 percent of GDP, travel tourism remains one of the country’s largest service exports. In December 2023 alone it accounted for 22.4 percent of all US service exports and 7.5 percent of total US exports (goods and services combined).

December 2023 International Inbound Visitor Spending

However, unless inbound travel disappears entirely, it is highly likely that this sector will be cut in half. Who wants to risk being detained without notification to family, spending their vacation weeks behind bars, and potentially forfeiting the $5,000 they’d earmarked for airfare and lodging? (I doubt the US refunds deported tourists for flights or hotels… Thay might even bill you for the time in prison :eek:) Even if the ordeal makes for an “unforgettable” story, it’s hardly the sort of experience anyone goes on vacation to enjoy. Moreover, who’s comfortable having all their private communications on their phone inspected and copied? Business travelers will almost certainly increase their use of interactive meetings and Install routines equal to those for travelling to dictatorships (burner phones and empty travelling computers) for the occasions they have to go to the US in person. And then there is that thing with the US Cloud Act that Trump installed last time he was president.... No way to turn a blind eye to that under current circumstances, I am guessing that plattforms like StarLeaf will skyrocket.
 
Please explain.
A lot of American military people, living abroad so long, end up marrying abroad, and if all their spouses are really at risk of being denied access because a period of marital bliss in the U.S. doesn't qualify as "tourism", their loyalty is obviously going to be tested. There is clearly an element of inequality to this too: rich Americans can have their spouses with them all the time, but the right to be with your own wife is a privilege denied to the poor. So somebody is rubbing their noses in the fact that, despite being armed forces members, they're still nobodies. That has to take a bite out of morale. As I recall this particular husband is in Australia right now, and if he still has obligations to the military, it seems like he has a moral right to desert at this point. True, Australia isn't a hostile country - but that could change any time if Trump starts telling them they have to hand over the suspended land claims in Antarctica and the Antarctic sanctuary waters they had the Sea Shepherds out defending. This is just one case and nothing of the sort is likely to happen, but roll those dice enough times and you're bound to come up snake eyes. Why exactly, in the name of national security, can't we just allow at least all the military members and veterans to sponsor their wives in the U.S. just as if they actually had been paid real money?
 
Someone has no idea what ICE does (or doesn't do).
Or who does it.

I've heard that signing a binding document pledging your loyalty to Trump is a new requirement before they're issued a brown shirt and black face mask. They should be required to use a body camera like the police, but Trump's Staatspolizei need anonymity so they can't be held responsible for excess force, or violating the civil rights of citizens they deport by mistake...
 
I've heard that signing a binding document pledging your loyalty to Trump is a new requirement before they're issued a brown shirt and black face mask. They should be required to use a body camera like the police, but Trump's Staatspolizei need anonymity so they can't be held responsible for excess force, or violating the civil rights of citizens they deport by mistake...
Vilifying the ICE was the kind of tactic that gave Trump the election in the first place. If Biden had simply been willing to enforce the law more or less as written and respect the people who have to enforce it, then we would never have been in the position of having no vaccine and no researchers and no public health people and being about to see half the country die of avian flu while the Chinese and the Europeans gladly deploy their public health resources to save themselves. Was it worth it, to vilify a group of people we never talked to and never listened to?
 

ICE fascist scumbags at it again​


@Hari Seldon, I believe you have the wrong agency. Since this was at an airport—a port of entry—she probably encountered officers from U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
 
Vilifying the ICE was the kind of tactic that gave Trump the election in the first place. If Biden had simply been willing to enforce the law more or less as written and respect the people who have to enforce it, then we would never have been in the position of having no vaccine and no researchers and no public health people and being about to see half the country die of avian flu while the Chinese and the Europeans gladly deploy their public health resources to save themselves. Was it worth it, to vilify a group of people we never talked to and never listened to?
Many voted for Trump due to the number of immigrants coming into the US, not because ICE was vilified. Trump "killed the bipartisan border bill to save his campaign". And regarding, "no public health people", it's Trump who began, "mass layoffs at FDA, CDC, other US health agencies".

"The head of President Donald Trump’s immigration policy, Tom Homan, appears to have met with an associate of the Proud Boys on at least four separate occasions". Connections between Trump's administration and Neo-Nazi groups, ICE's "negligent" medical care, "unsafe and filthy" conditions, racist abuse of detainees and their use of black masks makes vilifying them appropriate...
 
Many voted for Trump due to the number of immigrants coming into the US, not because ICE was vilified. Trump "killed the bipartisan border bill to save his campaign". And regarding, "no public health people", it's Trump who began, "mass layoffs at FDA, CDC, other US health agencies".
The Biden administration made no secret of its intent to basically ignore and sabotage immigration laws. This was a combination of the anti-ICE sentiment and broad executive decisions. That same playbook is now being carried out against the CDC and all science, by people who wouldn't have won the election if they weren't protesting against another administration that wasn't following the laws.
 
In the meantime, let your primary activism continue to be keyboard warrior shit on the Internet
The belief that conversation is useless is a terrible fallacy that has gotten us where we are now. I don't know who pushed this idea, but it has had friends in high places. It has tainted many groups of people one after another. There was a moment when it tainted the Anarchists, right after the Chinese-backed Revolutionary Communist Party rebranded and moved its people in to the field. There was a little cartoon everywhere on the internet with a cat and "Direct Action Gets The Goods". But no, direct action doesn't get the goods. The disaster we're seeing now is what a philosophy shortage looks like. Pity people can't make a living doing philosophy, eh? Is that something we have to accept with Capitalism? The Anarchists became a group of goose-steppers in black uniforms, enforcing laws against wearing fur and doing biomedical research.

But of course it didn't stay there. Obama got in power with Organizing for America, but right after he went in office the worm turned. Nobody in the Democratic Party wanted to hear that their voters thought marijuana legalization was a good idea. From then on they put all their chips on NGP-Van and a policy of just going to remind people to vote, never debating, never persuading with their volunteers.

And by then, well, we've seen all the online forums that have gone away under threats from Democrats and Republicans alike in Congress, like SESTA-FOSTA, and banks playing internet overlords. Mostly the Democrats sowed these seeds, making it ironic for them to complain about Trump's ample censorship now.

But when we have migrated specifically to one of the RARE forums online that doesn't immediately ban you for being on one side or the other, we're not going to rise to the bait of being told that conversation is useless. A place like this is a last stand of "keyboard warriors" and actual thought. Apart from that, the only thinking going on is being done in conversations with the AIs.
 
The belief that conversation is useless is a terrible fallacy that has gotten us where we are now. I don't know who pushed this idea, but it has had friends in high places. It has tainted many groups of people one after another. There was a moment when it tainted the Anarchists, right after the Chinese-backed Revolutionary Communist Party rebranded and moved its people in to the field. There was a little cartoon everywhere on the internet with a cat and "Direct Action Gets The Goods". But no, direct action doesn't get the goods. The disaster we're seeing now is what a philosophy shortage looks like. Pity people can't make a living doing philosophy, eh? Is that something we have to accept with Capitalism? The Anarchists became a group of goose-steppers in black uniforms, enforcing laws against wearing fur and doing biomedical research.

But of course it didn't stay there. Obama got in power with Organizing for America, but right after he went in office the worm turned. Nobody in the Democratic Party wanted to hear that their voters thought marijuana legalization was a good idea. From then on they put all their chips on NGP-Van and a policy of just going to remind people to vote, never debating, never persuading with their volunteers.

And by then, well, we've seen all the online forums that have gone away under threats from Democrats and Republicans alike in Congress, like SESTA-FOSTA, and banks playing internet overlords. Mostly the Democrats sowed these seeds, making it ironic for them to complain about Trump's ample censorship now.

But when we have migrated specifically to one of the RARE forums online that doesn't immediately ban you for being on one side or the other, we're not going to rise to the bait of being told that conversation is useless. A place like this is a last stand of "keyboard warriors" and actual thought. Apart from that, the only thinking going on is being done in conversations with the AIs.

There's no thought involved in being a keyboard warrior, it's as noble and intellectual as a 5 year old's temper tantrum.

Conversation, on the other hand, is the most urgently needed factor to take us out of the shit storm we find ourselves in.

Keyboard warrior shit is the enemy of conversation, and is only useful for dopamine and the lolz.

If you want to have a conversation with me, I'm down. If you want to engage in keyboard warrior shit with me, you'll either get dismissed or absolutely messed with, depending on my mood, but it will never be seen as useful or noble.
 
If you want to have a conversation with me, I'm down. If you want to engage in keyboard warrior shit with me, you'll either get dismissed or absolutely messed with, depending on my mood, but it will never be seen as useful or noble.
Most likely you're using that phrase in a different, more restricted way than I've encountered. Your comments (such as about nonviolent revolutions) do seem perceptive.
 
Most likely you're using that phrase in a different, more restricted way than I've encountered. Your comments (such as about nonviolent revolutions) do seem perceptive.

Yeah, I just noticed you're new, you'll get used to me, I'm not super into following "the script"... ;)

The downside is that everyone hates me from time to time... but on the plus side everyone loves me from time to time, so there's that. Hehe

Welcome to DP, bud, it's a gong show, but I like it. :)
 
There are two sides to every story. At this point, I have only one, so before drawing any conclusions I’d like to get CBP’s version.
Bet you never get it.
 
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