I’m done caring about the Wall

[Fletch]

#WhataboutObama?

I know you guys like to pretend Obama never existed, but he did and his actions are relevant to this discussion whether you like it or not.

This is Trump. What is Trump offering the dems in exchange for the money he said would come from Mexico?

I have no idea, but he should offer something. I have no problem with that.

 

[jnug]

I know you guys like to pretend Obama never existed, but he did and his actions are relevant to this discussion whether you like it or not.

I have no idea, but he should offer something. I have no problem with that.

Irrelevant...in fact if a moderator catches up to your string of posts here you are likely to get tagged for it. Obama and ACA are irrelevant to Trump and Border Wall.

 

[iguanaman]

During those two years, no spending bills could get passed without some Dem votes. Add to that the fact that some Reps are committed to oppose Trump just as much as the Dems are, and there's your answer.

Imagine that. A Country that relies on votes to pass legislation. How archaic. Trump has a better way...just demand what you want and take the country hostage until he gets his way. Then we can just get rid of all the other branches and change our name to the United States of Trump. What could go wrong with that?

 

[Cordelier]

I still think there's a deal to be had... if the President wants to keep throwing tantrums and being unreasonable, why don't we make the same deal with Senate Republicans that Obama made in 2013?

Give them a crapload of money for border security - 20,000 new border agents, new surveillance equipment, etc.... biometrics, enhanced E-Verify... whatever the Republicans feel is needed (short of a wall) and in exchange for that we get a path to citizenship for the Dreamers, and an agricultural worker program.

It passed the Senate by a veto-proof 68-32 back then... but the House Republicans refused to take it up. Well, they're not an issue anymore, are they?

 

[Saladin4]

I know you guys like to pretend Obama never existed, but he did and his actions are relevant to this discussion whether you like it or not.

I have no idea, but he should offer something. I have no problem with that.

What About What About Obama....More excuses...trump still ain't getting any wall

 

[Saladin4]

I still think there's a deal to be had... if the President wants to keep throwing tantrums and being unreasonable, why don't we make the same deal with Senate Republicans that Obama made in 2013?

Give them a crapload of money for border security - 20,000 new border agents, new surveillance equipment, etc.... biometrics, enhanced E-Verify... whatever the Republicans feel is needed (short of a wall) andey'll need 4 in exchange for that we get a path to citizenship for the Dreamers, and an agricultural worker program.

It passed the Senate by a veto-proof 68-32 back then... but the House Republicans refused to take it up. Well, they're not an issue anymore, are they?

Won't work...This senate is under trump's thumb...3 have have hinted they have had enough but they'll need 4

 

[Cordelier]

Won't work...This senate is under trump's thumb...3 have have hinted they have had enough but they'll need 4

They're going to need more than that to get a veto-proof margin.... But if you go back to the voting record last February, the Common Sense Coalition managed to get some Republican movement in defiance of the President:

Alexander (TN)
Collins (ME)
Flake (AZ)
Gardner (CO)
Graham (SC)
Isakson (GA)
Murkowski (AK)
Rounds (SD)

Flake is obviously out of the picture, but McSally could easily support this kind of a deal. Maybe even Capito? The point is that eventually, as this situation goes on, and the President makes over-the-top threats about cutting into the Pentagon's Budget... you'll see a critical mass of Senate Republicans start looking at making a deal - with or without the President.

 

[Saladin4]

They're going to need more than that to get a veto-proof margin.... But if you go back to the voting record last February, the Common Sense Coalition managed to get some Republican movement in defiance of the President:

Alexander (TN)
Collins (ME)
Flake (AZ)
Gardner (CO)
Graham (SC)
Isakson (GA)
Murkowski (AK)
Rounds (SD)

Flake is obviously out of the picture, but McSally could easily support this kind of a deal. Maybe even Capito? The point is that eventually, as this situation goes on, and the President makes over-the-top threats about cutting into the Pentagon's Budget... you'll see a critical mass of Senate Republicans start looking at making a deal - with or without the President.

Just don't see it happening...These Republicans are frightened of trump and his base....But as the shut down drags on, maybe some will fold when their constituents cry for help

 

[eohrnberger]

If Chuck and Nancy cave, they'll get pilloried by their own nutjob Dems (pretty much their whole Party).

True, but isn't that happening already? Just hours after the Dem freshmen congress was sworn in?

 

[Cordelier]

Just don't see it happening...These Republicans are frightened of trump and his base....But as the shut down drags on, maybe some will fold when their constituents cry for help

It's not obvious yet... but I'm starting to see the cracks forming in his base. This whole threat about declaring a National Emergency is putting a lot of stress on the Republican caucus. They may not come out and say it, but trust me... they're thinking it. Twenty-Two Republican Senate seats are up for grabs in 2020.... do they really want to chain themselves to Trump come election time?

I think it's about time to give things a shove.... start dividing Republicans who actually want to get things done from the Kool-Aid drinkers who will follow Trump to the end.

 

[Hedgology]

Exactly. They simply cannot give in to this asshole, especially on something that won't accomplish anything.

If it accomplishes nothing (which is a stretch in itself), then fighting over it is illogical.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

I know you guys like to pretend Obama never existed, but he did and his actions are relevant to this discussion whether you like it or not.

Really? The ACA is not the topic. IOW, not relevant.

I have no idea, but he should offer something. I have no problem with that.

Agreed. So far all we've seen from Trump is threat escalation. And silly Game of Thrones misreads (can't his peeps find someone who knows the plot?).

 

[Fletch]

Irrelevant...in fact if a moderator catches up to your string of posts here you are likely to get tagged for it. Obama and ACA are irrelevant to Trump and Border Wall.

Tagged for what?

 

[Tangmo]

I’ve hit my wall on the Wall. I like that.

Head first obviously.

With Trump right behind.

As if it weren't already a pileup.

 

[Fletch]

Really? The ACA is not the topic. IOW, not relevant.

The ACA isnt relevant, but Obamas threat to veto anything that didnt fully fund his priorities is no different than what Trump is doing now.

Agreed. So far all we've seen from Trump is threat escalation. And silly Game of Thrones misreads (can't his peeps find someone who knows the plot?).

I cant help out there. I stopped watching the show when the little girl with the deformed face was burned alive at the stake. That was it for me.

 

[Mach]

True, but isn't that happening already? Just hours after the Dem freshmen congress was sworn in?

I don't know, they all claimed Nancy was out, but then they happily voted her in once the rubber met the road.
Freshmen are freshmen, love change until they see the mountain of they have to climb.

 

[Lovebug]

Dems cave and Trump will use this repeatedly. I think it's rather short-sighted to approach it as if it's just about 5 billion for just part of his wall.

OTOH, the issue of uncontrolled illegal immigration goes deeper than who caves or any partisan nonsense. We need to sit down and discuss out nation, our sovereignty, our borders without D or R, without starting every discussion with "but Trump".
Why can't we show the world that we can be the United States of America and be compassionate at the same time. Right now, we look like childish fools.

 

[Fletch]

If it accomplishes nothing (which is a stretch in itself), then fighting over it is illogical.

I think the partisans are dug in on the issue, but I suspect that normal Americans will punish the side that shows no interest in compromising to solve the problem

 

[Mach]

OTOH, the issue of uncontrolled illegal immigration goes deeper than who caves or any partisan nonsense. We need to sit down and discuss out nation, our sovereignty, our borders without D or R, without starting every discussion with "but Trump".
Why can't we show the world that we can be the United States of America and be compassionate at the same time. Right now, we look like childish fools.

Republicans won't hear of it though. Bush tried to reform immigration, Republicans wouldn't hear of it.
Obama tried to reform immigration, Republicans weren't having it.

You know why this is right? What issue have the analytics driving Bannon(Brietbart), C.A., etc., identified as the key driver to get Republican votes? Immigration fears.
What has Trump pushed since his campaign, repeatedly, throughout all this time, and pushed front and center at the mid-terms (the Caravan!!), and is even now pushing to the fore *Again* with the Wall(tm)

Why would Trump/Republicans solve immigration, if they would be giving up their #1 wedge issue for the base? And many of the rich corporate donors that Republicans cater to, want that low cost labor?

Immigration has for Republicans
- appeals to working class/rural folks who emotionally feel reducing immigration may bring back the jobs
- """ will cost them less in taxes (even if they don't really pay...)
- appears to their xenophobia/racial predudices
- has a "crisis" element that makes people fearful, and angry...two strong motivators for irrational support.

No, there have been many attempts to reform immigration, I don't see how modern Republicans will ever consider really sitting down on this issue. I sure hope I'm wrong.

 

[Lovebug]

Republicans won't hear of it though. Bush tried to reform immigration, Republicans wouldn't hear of it.
Obama tried to reform immigration, Republicans weren't having it.

You know why this is right? What issue have the analytics driving Bannon(Brietbart), C.A., etc., identified as the key driver to get Republican votes? Immigration fears.
What has Trump pushed since his campaign, repeatedly, throughout all this time, and pushed front and center at the mid-terms (the Caravan!!), and is even now pushing to the fore *Again* with the Wall(tm)

Why would Trump/Republicans solve immigration, if they would be giving up their #1 wedge issue for the base? And many of the rich corporate donors that Republicans cater to, want that low cost labor?

Immigration has for Republicans
- appeals to working class/rural folks who emotionally feel reducing immigration may bring back the jobs
- """ will cost them less in taxes (even if they don't really pay...)
- appears to their xenophobia/racial predudices
- has a "crisis" element that makes people fearful, and angry...two strong motivators for irrational support.

No, there have been many attempts to reform immigration, I don't see how modern Republicans will ever consider really sitting down on this issue. I sure hope I'm wrong.

Oh just stop with the partisan nonsense. We are being played by both sides. No need to defend that.

 

[Hedgology]

I think the partisans are dug in on the issue, but I suspect that normal Americans will punish the side that shows no interest in compromising to solve the problem

Prehaps. The only real problem is that the Government is not operating at full capacity and Americans usually do not know who to really blame for that happening.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

The ACA isnt relevant, but Obamas threat to veto anything that didnt fully fund his priorities is no different than what Trump is doing now.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Read this (I don't feel like regurgitating history):
https://www.quora.com/Why-could-Oba...Trump-to-do-that-over-his-promise-border-wall

 

[eohrnberger]

I don't know, they all claimed Nancy was out, but then they happily voted her in once the rubber met the road.
Freshmen are freshmen, love change until they see the mountain of they have to climb.

Fair enough.

Pelosi's going to have quite a challenge riding herd on the freshmen and their extremist leftism, internecine warfare is what it looks like.

 

[iguanaman]

Shutdowns happen, but this isn’t a normal one. Yeah, Trump has two others but they were just over the weekend and Trump didn’t “win” those.

But the Wall was the foundation of Trump’s campaign. Him backing down on it will make him look foolish to his base, which is something Trump cares very much about. If Trump takes the hit and gives up on the wall that would be a bigger personal sacrifice than the Democrats would be sacrificing if they caved first. For the Dems it is an issue. For Trump it is THE issue.

I get it. The Dem base may punish the Dems for giving in and the same for the Republicans, which is why the side that takes the bullet will get a kudos from me. Not that I think that matters to them.

Boo Hoo Trump got called on one of his foolish fantasy promises and now the Dems should bail him out because poor Trump. Rumple Trumpkiin needs to get used to losing and so do his supporters. Its going to be a very tough year for him. Probably the worst year of his coddled life. I say we make the GOP Senators bail him out by passing a clean bill with more than 66 votes. Trump can still say he gave it his all.

 

[Xelor]

I’m done with the Wall as an issue. Both sides have blown this thing way out of proportion. I don’t believe it is going to curb illegal immigration to a significant amount. And I don’t believe the Wall will hurt us as a nation either.

Yeah, it is a dumb waste of money IMO, but we waste more money on dumber things that people don’t freak out over.

The only real harm will be to the landowner’s property rights along the border. The courts will handle those eminent domain cases. But again, eminent domain cases aren’t something that typically makes the whole country freak out.

So whichever side “caves” first, is going to get a kudos from me. I won’t view them as a loser or weak. I will view them as the side that finally decided to put the good of the country before winning on this stupid issue.

I’m done pissing off both sides now.

Red:
Would you provide some examples of $20B+ wastes of money that are "dumb things that people don't freak over?"