How much of what happened was due to direct, active complicity by law enforcement?

[joko104]

It's delusion to think that the defense of the Capitol is accomplished solely via a free-standing LE vacuum.

Where were the 2000+ Capital police that are run by the Sgt of Arms of the House (Pelosi) and Sgt of Arms of the Senate (McConnell)?

 

[SCrider]

I agree, and would extend that to any government official or agent (e.g. a city mayor) who issued a ‘stand down’ order to LEOs in any rioting, looting and/or arson event.

Apple to oranges.
But nice try at moderating the seriousness of what happened.

 

[What if...?]

I’m doubt that most (even on the right) see it as less of a big deal (as any single SJW or BLM based riot), but see it as less than the combined impact of those (leftist excused?) riots. After all, the Capitol ‘invasion’ lasted a few hours and the property damage was confined to a single public building, while the other riots (combined) lasted far longer and impacted much larger areas - often completely destroying entire city blocks thus putting many out of work (or business) for months.

Not really. There was a lot of ovulation disobedience. Blocking roads and whatnot. Quite a bit of damage in some places, but most of the dmage is broken windows and grafitti.

Three historic building were burned in my little hamlet of La Mesa. But the guy who did it was an anti-capitalist, not a BLM protester. So were those buildings burned by BLM? Did BLM loot shoe stores or was that just professional thieves getting their crime on in a pandemic? I saw one that was definitely just thieving.

And when i went to Seattle and Portland in September the damage was very concentrated. A few blocks affected in a city of 120 square mikes in the case of Portland. Houses right across the street from that park CHOP was centered around had almost no damage or signs of recent repair, and I did windows and doors and remodeling construction for years. You know you can usually tell when windows have been recently replaced or rrepairs made. Property damage in the surrounding business district was targeted. Big corporate chains were hit, small busniesses right next door untouched. Flyers from the black bloc explaining why that was.

In other words, groups that have been problematic to left wing protests for decades now were active at the BLM protests in both places.

I am not excusing violence and vandalism. I just want for everybody to be angry at the actual bad actors and have an accurate picture of what happened. And conservative media has painted a picture of the protests that doesn't reflect reality. Intentionally.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Apple to oranges.
But nice try at moderating the seriousness of what happened.

I see that as being the other way around. You consider the (4 hour?) occupation of and damage to a single building as being far worse (more serious?) than days of rioting, looting and arson covering entire city blocks.

 

[X Factor]

If you look, I've been saying that this protest was mostly peaceful. I even pointed out that the BLM movement has been complaining about outside agitators, vandalism tourists, etc all along.

It was bullshit when we said it, but perfectly plausible when your media tried to pin it on antifa. And failed, as the guy they were sure was antifa is like a retired colonel or some such.and the woman who was shot an over the top Qanon person. And of course there were outside agitators arrested by police at BLM protests.

Fair enough and for the record I immediately discarded the claim that the people who did this were really Antifa or some other infiltrator/instigator. Some things are just exactly what they appear to be.

 

[SCrider]

I see that as being the other way around. You consider the (4 hour?) occupation of and damage to a single building as being far worse (more serious?) than days of rioting, looting and arson covering entire city blocks.

The importance of that single building and the intent of the rioters make this far worse. This was not an attack just on the building it was an attack on the idea of democracy. This country is now weaker for it. To have a sitting president encourage his followers to act this way is truly worse than anything that happened during the riots over the summer. Both physically and intellectually.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Not really. There was a lot of ovulation disobedience. Blocking roads and whatnot. Quite a bit of damage in some places, but most of the dmage is broken windows and grafitti.

Three historic building were burned in my little hamlet of La Mesa. But the guy who did it was an anti-capitalist, not a BLM protester. So were those buildings burned by BLM? Did BLM loot shoe stores or was that just professional thieves getting their crime on in a pandemic? I saw one that was definitely just thieving.

And when i went to Seattle and Portland in September the damage was very concentrated. A few blocks affected in a city of 120 square mikes in the case of Portland. Houses right across the street from that park CHOP was centered around had almost no damage or signs of recent repair, and I did windows and doors and remodeling construction for years. You know you can usually tell when windows have been recently replaced or rrepairs made. Property damage in the surrounding business district was targeted. Big corporate chains were hit, small busniesses right next door untouched. Flyers from the black bloc explaining why that was.

In other words, groups that have been problematic to left wing protests for decades now were active at the BLM protests in both places.

I am not excusing violence and vandalism. I just want for everybody to be angry at the actual bad actors and have an accurate picture of what happened. And conservative media has painted a picture of the protests that doesn't reflect reality. Intentionally.

I fully agree that there is almost always a difference between those only intent on peacefully protesting and those intent on rioting, looting and arson. That is why noting the fact that there are far more in the protesting group than in the destructive group is silly - especially when that is not stated (emphasized?) unless the MSM approves of the protestors’ cause.

 

[X Factor]

Apple to oranges.
But nice try at moderating the seriousness of what happened.

It’s not “apples to oranges” at all. Either city/state leaders are complicit in rioting when they have their police “stand down” or they’re not. What you cannot credibly do is say some riots are just ok to be left unchecked but not others.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

I don't think Trump directly had anything to do with the LE's slow, weak, pitiful response. I think over the next few months we're going to find out that many people in LE's AND the military simply agree with Trump's bigoted hateful message AND believe Qanon conspiracies that all Dems are satan worshippers and traffic kids for sex..

So they simply stepped aside and took their time arresting rioters and clearing out the buildings..

We're finding out everyday that many rioters were off duty cops, retired cops, military personal. Hell many of the Capitol police probably wished they were rioting arm in arm with their fellow QAnon 'brothers and sisters'.

With regard to your bolded: There is literally video evidence proving your point, where the cops remove the barriers and let the rioters in.

 

[SCrider]

It’s not “apples to oranges” at all. Either city/state leaders are complicit in rioting when they have their police “stand down” or they’re not. What you cannot credibly do is say some riots are just ok to be left unchecked but not others.

No one except you is saying that.

 

[What if...?]

I fully agree that there is almost always a difference between those only intent on peacefully protesting and those intent on rioting, looting and arson. That is why noting the fact that there are far more in the protesting group than in the destructive group is silly - especially when that is not stated (emphasized?) unless the MSM approves of the protestors’ cause.

There is a difference in location, scale and timing that makes the Capitol protest an event completely distinct from the BLM protests.

And the BLM protesters have a point. There is a problem with policing in this country. I have seen horrors with my own eyes.

The DC protest was the result of bald lies and propaganda. Those people actually believe the election was stolen. By pedophile cannibals in some cases.

 

[SCrider]

There is a difference in location, scale and timing that makes the Capitol protest an event completely distinct from the BLM protests.

And the BLM protesters have a point. There is a problem with policing in this country. I have seen horrors with my own eyes.

The DC protest was the result of bald lies and propaganda. Those people actually believe the election was stolen. By pedophile cannibals in some cases.

This whole flase comparison the the BLM protests is simply a weak attempt to mitigate the seditious actions of Trump and his followers by other trump followers.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The importance of that single building and the intent of the rioters make this far worse. This was not an attack just on the building it was an attack on the idea of democracy. This country is now weaker for it. To have a sitting president encourage his followers to act this way is truly worse than anything that happened during the riots over the summer. Both physically and intellectually.

That difference will (hopefully) be reflected in the criminal charges/sentences meted out to those responsible. The fact remains that criminal justice (arrest and prosecution of rioters) should not become criminal “just us” - selectively applied based on the targets of rioters. While we fully expect the Capitol Police to protect and serve those within theIr jurisdiction we also expect the city, county and/or state police to protect and serve those within their (respective) jurisdictions.

 

[ttwtt78640]

There is a difference in location, scale and timing that makes the Capitol protest an event completely distinct from the BLM protests.

And the BLM protesters have a point. There is a problem with policing in this country. I have seen horrors with my own eyes.

The DC protest was the result of bald lies and propaganda. Those people actually believe the election was stolen. By pedophile cannibals in some cases.

The idea that the message (cause?) of the protestors should have any impact on the criminal justice system’s response to those using it as cover to engage in rioting, looting and arson is ridiculous.

 

[SCrider]

The idea that the message (cause?) of the protestors should have any impact on the criminal justice system’s response to those using it as cover to engage in rioting, looting and arson is ridiculous.

Why are you so sure that the riots committing crimes during other protests have not been caught and arrested? You seem to think that they got a free pass or something?
The ones arrested after Wednesday are making the news because its a much more dramatic story.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Why are you so sure that the riots committing crimes during other protests have not been caught and arrested? You seem to think that they got a free pass or something?
The ones arrested after Wednesday are making the news because its a much more dramatic story.

Are you seriously unaware of ‘stand down’ orders having been given to LEOs during other riots?

Louisville shop sues city for damages amid protests, alleges mayor gave 'stand down' order

JJ Wig Shop said in the lawsuit that it had security footage of its glass being smashed by looters shortly before midnight on May 29.

www.courier-journal.com

Sheriff: 'I Was Sick To My Stomach' After Being Told To Stand Down

baltimore.cbslocal.com

Minneapolis Mayor Defends Stand-Down Order As Rioters Take Over & Burn Police Precinct | NewsRadio 740 KTRH | Michael Berry

Minneapolis Mayor Defends Stand-Down Order As Rioters Take Over & Burn Police Precinct

ktrh.iheart.com

 

[SCrider]

Are you seriously unaware of ‘stand down’ orders having been given to LEOs during other riots?

Louisville shop sues city for damages amid protests, alleges mayor gave 'stand down' order

JJ Wig Shop said in the lawsuit that it had security footage of its glass being smashed by looters shortly before midnight on May 29.

www.courier-journal.com

Sheriff: 'I Was Sick To My Stomach' After Being Told To Stand Down

baltimore.cbslocal.com

Minneapolis Mayor Defends Stand-Down Order As Rioters Take Over & Burn Police Precinct | NewsRadio 740 KTRH | Michael Berry

Minneapolis Mayor Defends Stand-Down Order As Rioters Take Over & Burn Police Precinct

ktrh.iheart.com

Yes, I am. Sometimes it's the most prudent policy.

 

[What if...?]

This whole flase comparison the the BLM protests is simply a weak attempt to mitigate the seditious actions of Trump and his followers by other trump followers.

That it is.

And another teaching moment missed.

Like when the BLM protests caused no spikes, instead of being encouraged by this meaning being outside and mostly masked does indeed reduce the risk of catching the virus, they ignored it in favor of their anti-BLM messaging.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yes, I am. Sometimes it's the most prudent policy.

Yep, giving rioters, looters and arsonists a free pass is seen by you as “most prudent” - unless, of course, it is given to those who you disagree with politically.

 

[What if...?]

The idea that the message (cause?) of the protestors should have any impact on the criminal justice system’s response to those using it as cover to engage in rioting, looting and arson is ridiculous.

But what are peaceful protesters supposed to do about violent infiltrators? I have seen video of them trying. Lots of them.

This is one of those things that ends up out of the "frame" when narratives are created. When demonizing a movement, never even mention any mitigating elements. Like any effort to lionize a movement never includes the warts and errors.

This is propaganda at work. And we need to think about it.

Because at the end of the day, the DC protest was in response to a bald faced lie, cleverly sold to an audience conditioned to accept anything they are told and reject any information to the contrary out of hand.

I ran with the hippy crowd for a while. And at a Rainbow Gathering I ran into some kids involved in the WTO protests. I asked them about the vandals that seemed to be taking all the attention away from their efforts.

They told me that the vandals aren't part of the protests. Nobody knows them. They go to no meetings or any other organizing efforts. They do show up to eat if food is being provided. They move with the protests, break off and tear shit up, then blend back in when the cops show up. They are aggressive and violent, so there's not a lot a bunch of peaceniks are able to do about them. Law enforcement is aware and acknowledges this is going on.

But I have never heard this mentioned in any conservative media or in any of the narratives carried here by the TRCs. Because it is nuance. Propaganda is never about nuance.

 

[ttwtt78640]

But what are peaceful protesters supposed to do about violent infiltrators? I have seen video of them trying. Lots of them.

This is one of those things that ends up out of the "frame" when narratives are created. When demonizing a movement, never even mention any mitigating elements. Like any effort to lionize a movement never includes the warts and errors.

This is propaganda at work. And we need to think about it.

Because at the end of the day, the DC protest was in response to a bald faced lie, cleverly sold to an audience conditioned to accept anything they are told and reject any information to the contrary out of hand.

I ran with the hippy crowd for a while. And at a Rainbow Gathering I ran into some kids involved in the WTO protests. I asked them about the vandals that seemed to be taking all the attention away from their efforts.

They told me that the vandals aren't part of the protests. Nobody knows them. They go to no meetings or any other organizing efforts. They do show up to eat if food is being provided. They move with the protests, break off and tear shit up, then blend back in when the cops show up. They are aggressive and violent, so there's not a lot a bunch of peaceniks are able to do about them. Law enforcement is aware and acknowledges this is going on.

But I have never heard this mentioned in any conservative media or in any of the narratives carried here by the TRCs. Because it is nuance. Propaganda is never about nuance.

Take pictures, note license plate numbers, call police and offer to testify as a witness. Basically, what anyone is expected to do when they witness a crime being committed.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Full disclosure; I'm about as far from a conspiracy theorist as anyone in this world but the absolutely STUNNING failure of law enforcement to respond to the events unfolding in the Capital last Wed. suggests that there may well have been a plan or at least an agreement to let this go on unfettered by aggressive interference by the authorities. A couple of points...
1) Nothing that occurred was unexpected or not telegraphed for weeks in advance
2) Even if one was to assume there was a surprise aspect to these events, there was virtually no response for hours in a city with arguably the largest LE presence in the United States
My thinking is that Donald J. Simpleton put the word out (though surrogates, of course) to hogtie LE and let "his patriots" have their day.

This horror simply could not have occurred as it did without some form of assistance from very high places.

This coup was uncoordinated, disorganized, and amateurish.

The next one might not be.

 

[roguenuke]

There does not need to be conspiracy for a group that thinks alike to act alike and there are not enough good apples to keep the whole barrel from spoiling.

I think this is a bad way to put it though. I think it only takes a few, maybe even 10% of these officers to be "bad", especially one or two in charge (and it definitely seems that the Chief was), to cause enough of a problem that it makes this sort of situation just hopeless for the rest. There are definitely examples where you can see multiple and/or large groups of officers fighting back and trying to hold the lines, the doors. But then there are other places where it appears as if those officers were almost ordered to "stand aside", to assist in allowing this to happen.

Some examples I can think of involving contrasting officer actions are seeing the phalanx of officers with riot shields trying to prevent entry into that one corridor. There seemed to be maybe a dozen officers there able to hold back a crowd throwing things at them and pushing them inside for at least a while, definitely putting effort in, from getting into that particular entrance. However, there is other videos on a different entrance, where there is a set of doors that swing out, and it does look like those were peacefully opened for people to come in (this is where the W.Va delegate appears to film his video going through and there is another video out there showing this from a slightly different view). There are about 6 officers standing to the side in that hallway as rioters are passing by, with at least one on the right looking like he says something to them, almost like he may support them, while at least one or two off to the left look absolutely pissed, like someone told them they had to let them inside, open the doors. I think all these things need to be investigated.

I will say, when I first saw the video of the 3 officers in front of the door, where Babbitt was shot, I thought they simply turned and walked away. Then I watched it again and saw some commentary and a little bit more of an angle on it, and realized they were leaving not because the guy had told them to move, but because they had orders that they basically had backup there and were being evacuated themselves. Personally, I think that was a horrible move and it gave the rioters a chance to take advantage of that move, as they were ushered out by those other officers with rifles and swat gear, but it turns out they didn't just abandon their post.

 

[Bonnot]

A lot of it.

 

[phoenix2020]

Take pictures, note license plate numbers, call police and offer to testify as a witness. Basically, what anyone is expected to do when they witness a crime being committed.

I agree. Whether someone is looting a small store during a BLM protest, or charging a federal building after a Trump rally, we have a responsibility to document, report and testify against it, regardless of their purported cause. I suspect there is a bit of a double standard here, since in all fairness I haven't heard much about said looters, vandals etc. this summer being brought to justice. But perhaps they are and the issue is that it is not being reported. I don’t know either way.