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How large a threat do you view China?

Antiwar

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You're easily confused so I'll just say I've always liked the late Sen. Henry Jackson of Washington State who was a Democrat and Cold Warrior and a domestic liberal.

I was a Cold Warrior and a domestic liberal yet now I'm combatting American Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarian Rightists each of whom has become what we fought against successfully throughout the 20th century to defeat. My father and uncles fought fascism in The Big One and my mother did USN torpedo firing mechanisms (which became quite the headache for a while there).

So I'm a post yuppie Progressive instead of being a soft as a grape liberal bleeding heart, luv 'em all as I still do. I myself recall many peers such as yourself back in the day, ie, those who know it all while still having a lot to learn.
Ignoring the fluff and straw in your comment: Progressives aren't warriors, cold nor hot.
 

Antiwar

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You still desperately flail about trying to avoid facing the fact that China is committing genocide.
I'm not avoiding facing the "fact" because it's not a provable fact that the Chinese government is committing genocide, especially considering the issues with vary definitions of genocide, which you utilize to avoid being critical of America, it seems. You're avoiding questioning and testing your beliefs, and engaging in a good faith discussion/debate.
 

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ONLY because they were valuable property that made people wealthy. Was their culture respected? Hell no. They were taken from their culture declared subhuman and turned into slaves by inhumane people. While the term 'genocide' does bring up thoughts of massive amounts of murder, that's not the only characteristic. Has the Chinese government committed massive amounts of murder on the Uhygur people? As far as we know, no. Are the Uhygur people being mistreated worse than the chattel slaves were? I don't think so.

Doesn’t change the fact that no genocide occurred. Slavery is incredibly evil on its own; there’s zero reason to stretch the truth by claiming “genocide”.

Lol yes, one of the other characteristics is attempting to exterminate a culture, which is absolutely going on in Xinjiang.

Going “but people a hundred and fifty years ago were treated badly!” does not excuse a genocide happening now.
 

Tigerace117

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I'm not avoiding facing the "fact" because it's not a provable fact that the Chinese government is committing genocide, especially considering the issues with vary definitions of genocide, which you utilize to avoid being critical of America, it seems. You're avoiding questioning and testing your beliefs, and engaging in a good faith discussion/debate.

Except we have large amounts of evidence already proving it. If the efforts to wipe out Uighur culture don’t qualify as genocide in your book, then, quite frankly, neither can what happened to the Native Americans at reservation schools.

I am pointing out the simple fact that China is committing genocide in Xinjiang, and you are shrieking in horror and hurling anything you can think of at the wall in hopes it will stick. If being progressive means being an apologist for the genocidal thugs in Beijing, then perhaps it’s a good thing progressives keep losing.
 

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We've spent the last four decades decimating our domestic manufacturing and helping China become "the world's factory" so we could buy cheap and poorly made consumer goods at Walmart, and now suddenly we're going to blast them for our own greed and largesse?
Get back to me when we remember how to build durable American products that last for a decade or more to justify the higher prices, at a level where it once again SHIFTS consumer thinking in favor of domestically manufactured products enough that we do not NEED China's output and are no longer hostage to it.

If China is a threat it's because our own greed and shortsightedness HELPED them BECOME one.
We CANNOT duplicate China's manufacturing, but the solution is to do things the way they DON'T.

Consumers understand value in many different ways. And it's not difficult to reeducate them to appreciate different ways of expressing value.
Once upon a time the world bought consumer goods designed to last.
They were expensive but they were durable, well made and designed to be both repaired and upgraded.
Chinese consumer products are designed to be disposable.
 

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Progress on China's 3rd carrier. This one is a fair bit bigger than Liaoning and Shandong (Approx 85,000 to 100,000 tons) and features a flat deck with electromagnetic catapults.

Type-003-close-up.jpg


 

Antiwar

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We've spent the last four decades decimating our domestic manufacturing and helping China become "the world's factory" so we could buy cheap and poorly made consumer goods at Walmart, and now suddenly we're going to blast them for our own greed and largesse?
Get back to me when we remember how to build durable American products that last for a decade or more to justify the higher prices, at a level where it once again SHIFTS consumer thinking in favor of domestically manufactured products enough that we do not NEED China's output and are no longer hostage to it.

If China is a threat it's because our own greed and shortsightedness HELPED them BECOME one.
We CANNOT duplicate China's manufacturing, but the solution is to do things the way they DON'T.

Consumers understand value in many different ways. And it's not difficult to reeducate them to appreciate different ways of expressing value.
Once upon a time the world bought consumer goods designed to last.
They were expensive but they were durable, well made and designed to be both repaired and upgraded.
Chinese consumer products are designed to be disposable.
Your durable item thing is pretty good. The environmental aspects of manufactured things is a big concern, so that should be a big part of making better stuff. I've heard that the reason that PV solar is being installed like it is is because the cost became favorable due to a lot of the components being made in China.

I didn't move my domestic manufacturing overseas.

Modern society in general is based on things being disposable.

One of the biggest things is that we don't need to think in terms of global competition. Much more cooperation needs to happen. A good portion of world problems are due to unhealthy competition. "Trust but verify" comes to mind.
 

Antiwar

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Except we have large amounts of evidence already proving it.
What specific pieces of evidence provide sufficient proof? GW and fiends said there was undeniable proof that there were WMDs, and that's highly questionable. Governments, media, people say a lot of unfounded stuff for different reasons. And I am going to keep using the word ALLEGED because of these things. I haven't denied that genocide is happening in China, not even once.

Even if there is 100% proof, the issue I'm discussing is: What is going to be done about it? As I keep saying, I'm for stopping (preferably preventing) all human rights abuses. Are you going to keep repeating your "No you're not!" canned response?

If the efforts to wipe out Uighur culture don’t qualify as genocide in your book, then, quite frankly, neither can what happened to the Native Americans at reservation schools.
Again, I've never said it's not genocide. You're the one that's saying chattel slavery and Native American abuse isn't genocide.

I am pointing out the simple fact that China is committing genocide in Xinjiang
Yes, you are.

and you are shrieking in horror and hurling anything you can think of at the wall in hopes it will stick.

I'm not doing any of that, that's your melodramatic shtick. I've been consistent in my views, and my views are solid.

If being progressive means being an apologist for the genocidal thugs in Beijing, then perhaps it’s a good thing progressives keep losing.

I'm glad you ~asked because that's not what being progressive means. Progressive policies are in the forefront. Progressive policy happens all the time. Parts of the ~founding of the US are progressive. The early Republican Party was a progressive third party. Progress is where it's at, or should be, but conservative people are trying to hold on to their power. It pretty much boils down to: Are we going to progress or are we going to go the way of the dodo? The planet and humanity is pretty effed up.
 

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Your durable item thing is pretty good. The environmental aspects of manufactured things is a big concern, so that should be a big part of making better stuff. I've heard that the reason that PV solar is being installed like it is is because the cost became favorable due to a lot of the components being made in China.

I didn't move my domestic manufacturing overseas.

Modern society in general is based on things being disposable.

One of the biggest things is that we don't need to think in terms of global competition. Much more cooperation needs to happen. A good portion of world problems are due to unhealthy competition. "Trust but verify" comes to mind.

If you want to see how American high quality high tech works, take a look at medical electronics, most of which ARE designed and manufactured here in the USA and always have been. That's what American consumer goods used to be like.

Yes, the stuff costs more, a lot more. The point is, if you can have a tech swap out modules or swap in upgrades, it is possible to keep stuff going for a decade or more and still have it perform well and even exceed expectations.

The entire "restomod" movement consists of taking old classic goods, usually CARS, and equipping them with modern engines, brakes, cooling systems and instrumentation all wrapped in a classic body and the end result is beautiful, and worth a small fortune.

What I am getting at is, we can't do things the way China does them, we have to rethink HOW goods are made here and what the expectations are in the market.
American made high quality consumer goods can't sell at Walmart but they CAN sell at higher end stores ALL over the WORLD.
People pay a premium for whatever they think is high quality...that's why you have lines around the block at an Apple store.
 

Tangmo

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Progress on China's 3rd carrier. This one is a fair bit bigger than Liaoning and Shandong (Approx 85,000 to 100,000 tons) and features a flat deck with electromagnetic catapults.

Type-003-close-up.jpg



CCP-PRC Boyz in Beijing have reduced their carriers to 4 from the original plan of several years ago of 7 due to technical challenges and budget limitations not to mention personnel and competency issues of what has for centuries been a domestic riverboat built up coast guard the emperors called a navy. The CCP-PRC PLA Navy is not going to dominate anything locked inside Japanese islands and over its continental shelf with the South China Sea boxed in at all sides making it a Chinese lake of small defenseless islands the U.S. and Japan can demolish with ease.
 

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Ignoring the fluff and straw in your comment: Progressives aren't warriors, cold nor hot.

Tell me more about your life and experience during the Cold War and its nuclear balance of powers.

I'm interested in knowing more about your life as a China Fanboy.
 

Tangmo

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Here's a news bulletin for you as a CCP-PRC China Chauffer who always gives the DictatorTyrants in Beijing a free ride while you relentlessly attack the United States.

USA had 32 aircraft carrier battle groups in the Pacific during WW II.

CCP DictatorTyrants in Beijing have to settle for 4 carriers presently and foreseeably. This is due to Chinese lack of expertise and competence in making 'em, budgeting 'em and sending 'em out with inferior striking power and credibility.

USN has 11 carrier strike groups as they're called these dayze that assert American Naval power and global reach. With the Biden administration there are three carrier strike forces assigned to the western Pacific to include the South China Sea.

You yourself are a hard core China Fanboy who dismisses, denies, decries the USA that is the last best hope for mankind. Which means you are going down with the PLA Navy fleets when the time comes -- and come it will.

Bye.
 

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We've spent the last four decades decimating our domestic manufacturing and helping China become "the world's factory" so we could buy cheap and poorly made consumer goods at Walmart, and now suddenly we're going to blast them for our own greed and largesse?
Get back to me when we remember how to build durable American products that last for a decade or more to justify the higher prices, at a level where it once again SHIFTS consumer thinking in favor of domestically manufactured products enough that we do not NEED China's output and are no longer hostage to it.

If China is a threat it's because our own greed and shortsightedness HELPED them BECOME one.
We CANNOT duplicate China's manufacturing, but the solution is to do things the way they DON'T.

Consumers understand value in many different ways. And it's not difficult to reeducate them to appreciate different ways of expressing value.
Once upon a time the world bought consumer goods designed to last.
They were expensive but they were durable, well made and designed to be both repaired and upgraded.
Chinese consumer products are designed to be disposable.
One thing you must always keep in mind is that this system has largely been thrust upon us by the rich and powerful and their corporations who were enticed by cheap labour, and an absence of environmental and workplace regulation in developing countries, as well as the overwhelming majority of complicit politicos in both parties who were more than happy to take campaign funds and lobbyist dinners in exchange for aiding and abetting mass deindustrialization, globalization and export of manufacturing, and giving these entities a blank cheque to do as they pleased, while slashing their taxes, punching exploitable holes in tax law, and engaging in creeping and often dangerous deregulation.

I didn't choose to hollow out American manufacturing.

I didn't opt to turn from enduring quality to disposable quantity, nor from domestic manufacture to outsourcing; these were all decisions sourced from a wealthy elite who increasingly are the real power in politics, with only the progressive wing of the Democrats proving any kind of counterbalance or resistance.

Even in so far as you can saddle blame with the American populace for opting to purchase the cheap Chinese goods, culpability is limited, as economic inequality becomes historic, wages stagnant in real terms (again in large part thanks to this globalization), and the only thing keeping the working poor and declining middle class aloft are these cheap goods (oh and lots of debt), which they have little choice but to buy in practice.
 

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What specific pieces of evidence provide sufficient proof? GW and fiends said there was undeniable proof that there were WMDs, and that's highly questionable. Governments, media, people say a lot of unfounded stuff for different reasons. And I am going to keep using the word ALLEGED because of these things. I haven't denied that genocide is happening in China, not even once.

Even if there is 100% proof, the issue I'm discussing is: What is going to be done about it? As I keep saying, I'm for stopping (preferably preventing) all human rights abuses. Are you going to keep repeating your "No you're not!" canned response?


Again, I've never said it's not genocide. You're is pretty effed up.
To use just a few examples....(part one)

“According to an analysis from The Guardian, over one-third of mosques and religious sites in China suffered "significant structural damage" between 2016 and 2018, with nearly one-sixth of all mosques and shrines completely razed.[135] This included the tomb of Imam Asim, a mud tomb in the Taklamakan Desert, and the Ordam shrine at the mazar of Ali Arslan Khan.[136]

“In August 2018, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination decried the "broad definition of terrorism and vague references to extremism" used by Chinese legislation, noting that there were numerous reports of detention of large numbers of ethnic Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities on the "pretext of countering terrorism".[128]

“Sayragul Sauytbay, an ethnic Kazakh teacher who later fled China, described how she was forced to teach at an internment camp, saying the camp was "cramped and unhygienic" with her detainee students given only basic sustenance. Sauytbay added that authorities forced the detainees to learn Chinese, sit through indoctrination classes, and make public confessions. Furthermore, she mentioned that rape and torture were commonplace and that authorities forced detainees to take a particular medicine that left some individuals sterile or cognitively impaired.[145]

“The Uyghur Human Rights Project has identified at least 386 Uyghur intellectuals who have been imprisoned, detained, or disappeared. They were detained and have disappeared since early 2017 as victims of the massive campaign of ethnoreligious repression carried out by the Chinese government in the Uyghur homeland.[146]

“In September 2019, Agence France-Presse (AFP) visited 13 destroyed cemeteries across four cities and witnessed exposed bones remaining in four of them. Through an examination of satellite images, the press agency determined that the grave destruction campaign had been ongoing for more than a decade.[150] According to a previous AFP report, three cemeteries in Xayar County were among dozens of Uyghur cemeteries destroyed in Xinjiang between 2017 and 2019. The unearthed human bones from the cemeteries in Xayar County were discarded.[151][152] In January 2020, a CNN report based on an analysis of Google Maps satellite imagery said that Chinese authorities have destroyed more than 100 graveyards in Xinjiang, primarily Uyghur ones. CNN has linked the destruction of the cemeteries to the government's campaign to control the Uyghurs and Muslims more broadly.”
 

Tigerace117

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What specific pieces of evidence provide sufficient proof? GW and fiends said there was undeniable proof that there were WMDs, and that's highly questionable.


Part Two

“In 2018, United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination vice chairperson Gay McDougall indicated that around 1 million Uyghurs were being held in internment camps.[5] In September 2020, a Chinese government white paper revealed that an average of 1.29 million workers went through "vocational training" per year between 2014 and 2019, though it does not specify how many of the people received the training in camps or how many times they went through training. Adrian Zenz stated that this "gives us a possible scope of coercive labor" occurring in Xinjiang.[177] There have been multiple reports that mass deaths have occurred inside the camps.[178][179][180][181][182][183][184][185][186]

“According to 2020 study by Joanne Smith Finley, "political re-education involves coercive Sinicization, deaths in the camps through malnutrition, unsanitary conditions, withheld medical care, and violence (beatings); rape of male and female prisoners; and, since the end of 2018, transfers of the most recalcitrant prisoners – usually young, religious males – to high-security prisons in Xinjiang or inner China. Other camp "graduates" have been sent into securitized forced labour. Those who remain outside the camps have been terrified into religious and cultural self-censorship through the threat of internment."[12]

Ethan Gutmann estimated in December 2020 that 5 to 10 percent of detainees have died each year in the camps.[190]
BBC News and other sources reported accounts of organized mass rapeand sexual torture carried out by Chinese authorities in the internment camps.[29][218][219][220][221][222]
 

Tigerace117

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What specific pieces of evidence provide sufficient proof? GW and fiends said there was undeniable proof that there were WMDs, and that's highly questionable. Governments, media, people say a lot of unfounded p.

Part Three

“In November 2020, Gutmann told Radio Free Asia that a former hospital in Atsu, China, which had been converted into a Xinjiang internment camp, would allow local officials to streamline the organ harvesting process and provide a steady stream of harvested organs from Uyghurs.[258] Later, in December 2020, human rights activists and independent researchers told Haaretz that individuals detained in the Xinjiang internment camps "are being murdered and their organs harvested."[248] At that time, Gutmann told Haaretz that he estimates that at least 25,000 Uyghurs are killed in Xinjiang for their organs each year and that crematoria have been recently built in the province in order to more easily dispose of victims' bodies. Gutmann said that "fast lanes" were created for the movement of human organs in local airports.[248][25

“The use of the full "genocide" term did not gain traction until after the publication of a report by Adrian Zenz for the Jamestown Foundation and an article by the Associated Press in late June 2020 on forced sterilizations.[12]

In July 2020, Zenz said an interview with National Public Radio (NPR) that he had previously argued that the actions of the Chinese government are a cultural genocide, not a "literal genocide", but that one of the five criteria from the Genocide Convention was satisfied by more recent developments concerning the suppression of birth rates so "we do need to probably call it a genocide".[301]

All from this source

 

Antiwar

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Here's a news bulletin for you as a CCP-PRC China Chauffer who always gives the DictatorTyrants in Beijing a free ride while you relentlessly attack the United States.

USA had 32 aircraft carrier battle groups in the Pacific during WW II.

CCP DictatorTyrants in Beijing have to settle for 4 carriers presently and foreseeably. This is due to Chinese lack of expertise and competence in making 'em, budgeting 'em and sending 'em out with inferior striking power and credibility.

USN has 11 carrier strike groups as they're called these dayze that assert American Naval power and global reach. With the Biden administration there are three carrier strike forces assigned to the western Pacific to include the South China Sea.

You yourself are a hard core China Fanboy who dismisses, denies, decries the USA that is the last best hope for mankind. Which means you are going down with the PLA Navy fleets when the time comes -- and come it will.

Bye.
Chuckle.
 

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There
What specific pieces of evidence provide sufficient proof? GW and fiends said there was undeniable proof that there were WMDs, and that's highly questionable. Governments, media, people say a lot of unfounded stuff for different reasons. And I am going to keep using the word ALLEGED because of these things. I haven't denied that genocide is happening in China, not even once.

Even if there is 100% proof, the issue I'm discussing is: What is going to be done about it? As I keep saying, I'm for stopping (preferably preventing) all human rights abuses. Are you going to keep repeating your "No you're not!" canned response?


Again, I've never said it's not genocide. You're the one that's saying chattel slavery and Native American abuse isn't genocide.


Yes, you are.



I'm not doing any of that, that's your melodramatic shtick. I've been consistent in my views, and my views are solid.



I'm glad you ~asked because that's not what being progressive means. Progressive policies are in the forefront. Progressive policy happens all the time. Parts of the ~founding of the US are progressive. The early Republican Party was a progressive third party. Progress is where it's at, or should be, but conservative people are trying to hold on to their power. It pretty much boils down to: Are we going to progress or are we going to go the way of the dodo? The planet and humanity is pretty effed up.

Therefore, as has been made quite clear, there is absolutely no doubt that the CPC is committing genocide. But I get you are going to continue frantically trying to deny that fact.

Lol, you most certainly aren’t, as your desperation to deny the ongoing genocide and your shrieks of outrage over the genocidal thugs being held accountable shows quite clearly.


Again, slavery does not automatically equate to genocide, no matter how much that hurts your feelings.

You have consistently tried to deny the facts about the ongoing genocide, yes.

As I said before, if being progressive means covering for the genocidal thugs in Beijing then perhaps it’s a good thing progressives keep losing.
 

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You're easily confused so I'll just say I've always liked the late Sen. Henry Jackson of Washington State who was a Democrat and Cold Warrior and a domestic liberal.

I was a Cold Warrior and a domestic liberal yet now I'm combatting American Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarian Rightists each of whom has become what we fought against successfully throughout the 20th century to defeat. My father and uncles fought fascism in The Big One and my mother did USN torpedo firing mechanisms (which became quite the headache for a while there).

So I'm a post yuppie Progressive instead of being a soft as a grape liberal bleeding heart, luv 'em all as I still do. I myself recall many peers such as yourself back in the day, ie, those who know it all while still having a lot to learn.

You forgot to add "shitty white progressives". 🤣
You know the kind, like Glenn Greenwald and Jimmy Dore?

"The best part of being a shitty white male "progressive" is never admitting you were wrong.
When Greenwald finally says he's voting for a Republican, all of his little shitty white "progressive" fanboys are going to both blame us for "forcing" Greenwald to do it and say it's not really wrong because something something "Democrats are just as bad" blablabla."
(hat tip to Justin Rosario)
 

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In other sounds you have zero substantive reply or answer.

You are a Chauffer of the CCP while you expend your considerable Chauffer's free time and focus on assailing the United States.

Your are a China Chauffer because you 100% give the CCP-PRC a free ride while attacking the United States always and only.

You are a China Fanboy. Completely and always no matter what.
 

Tangmo

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You forgot to add "shitty white progressives". 🤣
You know the kind, like Glenn Greenwald and Jimmy Dore?

"The best part of being a shitty white male "progressive" is never admitting you were wrong.
When Greenwald finally says he's voting for a Republican, all of his little shitty white "progressive" fanboys are going to both blame us for "forcing" Greenwald to do it and say it's not really wrong because something something "Democrats are just as bad" blablabla."
(hat tip to Justin Rosario)

Kindly get back to me when you can be coherent, make some sense and be comprehensible thx

I'm not optimistic about it btw.

So whatever, anything you once had is lost and gone as you repeatedly make no sense at all, sorry to say.

I recall when you used to be good among us.

No more.

Sad and I hope you can recover and come back to us.
 

Antiwar

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To use just a few examples....(part one)

and (part two)
And here's your previous answer for what to do about the alleged genocide:
Tigerace117 said:
At the end of the day, the best the outside world can do for the victims of the genocide in Xinjiang is opposing the CPC’s crimes at every turn ...
 

Antiwar

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In other sounds you have zero substantive reply or answer.

You are a Chauffer of the CCP while you expend your considerable Chauffer's free time and focus on assailing the United States.

Your are a China Chauffer because you 100% give the CCP-PRC a free ride while attacking the United States always and only.

You are a China Fanboy. Completely and always no matter what.
Your commentary is getting worse.
 

Tangmo

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Man, those Indians sure screwed over the European settlers.


View attachment 67338807
----


"The genocide of indigenous peoples is the mass destruction of entire communities of indigenous peoples.[Note 1] Indigenous peoples are understood to be people whose historical and current territory has become occupied by colonial expansion, or the formation of a state by a dominant group such as a colonial power.[1]

...

Some scholars, among them Lemkin, have argued that cultural genocide, sometimes called ethnocide, should also be recognized. A people group may continue to exist, but if it is prevented from perpetuating its group identity by prohibitions of its cultural and religious practices, practices which are the basis of its group identity, this may also be considered a form of genocide. Examples of this form of genocide include the treatment of Tibetans and Uyghurs by the Government of China, and Native Americans by the government of the United States and First Nations peoples by the Canadian government.[7][8][9][10]"


Giving CCP-PRC Chinese dynasties a free ride as always and each and every time.

You are a China Fanboy.

America hater.
 
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