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How large a threat do you view China?

Sagittarius83 said:
NATO seems quite concerned.

Nato warns of military challenge posed by China https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57466210
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I don't think this is news at all.
China is the main rival of the United States on the world stage.
Personally, I think the United States will lose the race of competition with China... to my disappointment, of course, I write this. I am not a fan of the United States and I am not one of those Russians who worship American sacred democracy, but the values of the West are much closer to me than the Chinese ones.
 
AmNat said:
America is, sadly, a dying empire. Were it not the Chinese someone else would be overtaking us. I'm more concerned with the rot at home than with which foreign power is benefiting from it.
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It may be time for the EU to undertake it’s own military defense. It seems that China’s animosity is with the US.

I think the 21st century will produce powerful regional powers and the time of true international military power may be over.
 
Sagittarius83 said:
It may be time for the EU to undertake it’s own military defense. It seems that China’s animosity is with the US.

I think the 21st century will produce powerful regional powers and the time of true international military power may be over.
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NATO has long been a muzzle for the EU.
With the collapse of the USSR, the essence of this military alliance became exactly the opposite of the original goal. Today, this is exactly a muzzle for the EU, depriving most of the countries of the bloc of a defense army for each country independently. Their military forces are "integrated" into the overall NATO defense scheme, and the participating countries are extremely dependent on decisions from the United States and are absolutely untenable if the United States does not want something.
The only exceptions are the largest countries of the bloc, such as France, England and Turkey, which have retained the semblance of independent armed forces.
 
Fabiusbile said:
NATO has long been a muzzle for the EU.
With the collapse of the USSR, the essence of this military alliance became exactly the opposite of the original goal. Today, this is exactly a muzzle for the EU, depriving most of the countries of the bloc of a defense army for each country independently. Their military forces are "integrated" into the overall NATO defense scheme, and the participating countries are extremely dependent on decisions from the United States and are absolutely untenable if the United States does not want something.
The only exceptions are the largest countries of the bloc, such as France, England and Turkey, which have retained the semblance of independent armed forces.
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Russia has given NATO a renewed purpose...but the goal is still the same.

NATO countries include....Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States.

An attack on one is an attack on all.
 
Moot said:
An attack on one is an attack on all.
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Well, Turkey will attack Greece, what will you do?
Leave this Musketeer pathos from Dumas to the children.
By
 
Fabiusbile said:
NATO has long been a muzzle for the EU.
With the collapse of the USSR, the essence of this military alliance became exactly the opposite of the original goal. Today, this is exactly a muzzle for the EU, depriving most of the countries of the bloc of a defense army for each country independently. Their military forces are "integrated" into the overall NATO defense scheme, and the participating countries are extremely dependent on decisions from the United States and are absolutely untenable if the United States does not want something.
The only exceptions are the largest countries of the bloc, such as France, England and Turkey, which have retained the semblance of independent armed forces.
Click to expand...
Turkey may wind up on the outs and may be the beginning of the unraveling of NATO as it may ally itself with a loose coalition of Muslim states.
The UK may have to make a final decision about it’s allegiance. Up til now it’s loyalty has been to the US or Europe as it has benefited them.

I see a three tiered world with China the undisputed regional leader in Asia (Japan will be a wild card), Russia the undisputed leader in Eastern Europe up through Ukraine but no further and in a loose alliance with the Shia states in the Middle East. And the US which will likely dominate north and South America.

I think Africa may be the disputed zone as the US and China fight for minerals that can be found nowhere else. Unless there is an all out war China will get what they want there as they are investing heavily there.

I don’t know how the US debt to China will be dealt with but it may be a huge complication.

That leaves the EU which may unite not so much as a regional power but as a defensive organization comprising western and Central Europe. There may be some ties to Israel.
 
Fabiusbile said:
Well, Turkey will attack Greece, what will you do?
Leave this Musketeer pathos from Dumas to the children.
By
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Nothing...because Turkey isn't going to attack Greece.
 
Moot said:
Nothing...because Turkey isn't going to attack Greece.
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Just like they wasn't going to Cyprus 4 decades ago.
They have enough disputed territories and waters to start a conflict... and your self-confidence suggests that you know absolutely nothing about the so-called allies
 
Not really. They’ll want greater influence in their sphere; with a history of being colonised they’ll want foreign powers to stay out of their business. With regard to human rights they’ll continue to clamp down on their own and those under their influence - like Russia not much we cab do about that except complain and sanction. In trade and resources they’ll continue to invest in Africa. A skilful Diplomatic strategy should be able to keep them in a position where both sides get another of what they want. Like the Cold War it’s not a zero sum game.
 
It should be interesting to see how China will continue to deal with the Muslim areas to it’s west.

Religious fomented agitation has been so much of it’s history that China is on guard. People forget they share a border with Afghanistan for example and I doubt Afghanistan will be mucking about with China. China can expend way more soldiers than Afghanistan can deal with.
 
I think that China is very dependent on the U.S. and Europe as markets, and so it is in the best interest of China that the U.S. and Europe have stable economies - so that they can continue to buy cheap Chinese products.
 
AH YES, the Red Menace.

Fear of the Red Menace brought ya wars in Vietnam and Korea.

YET - let's all buy our jeans from China and ship them our hazardous waste.

THERE ARE solutions y'all - such as bolstering our alliances in the Pacific - example would be the TPP - but having Trump nix it sure didn't help our cause to box in China.
 
Fabiusbile said:
Just like they wasn't going to Cyprus 4 decades ago.
They have enough disputed territories and waters to start a conflict... and your self-confidence suggests that you know absolutely nothing about the so-called allies
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There is nothin that you know about the conflict that can't be researched on the internet and learned in a few minutes. So get off your high horse before you fall off. A lot has changed in 40 years....Cyprus is a recognized sovereign nation now and a member of the EU and can invoke the EU’s mutual defense clause if they need to.

thecritic.co.uk

How much longer can Greece and Turkey avoid war? | John Psaropoulos | The Critic Magazine

Last summer, Greece and Turkey came closer to war than they have done since 1974, when Turkey invaded Cyprus. The drama began to unfold on 21 July, when Turkey announced it was sending a seismic…
thecritic.co.uk thecritic.co.uk

The allies don't seem particularly fond of Turkey, do they?
 
Sagittarius83 said:
NATO seems quite concerned.

Nato warns of military challenge posed by China https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57466210
Click to expand...
China is the modern day Evil Empire and should be treated and regarded as such; it is a brutal totalitarian society that tyrannizes its people, aggressively leverages its economic and military might to domineer discourse and destroy freedom worldwide, and is currently persecuting multiple and unspeakably heinous genocides. Hopefully Biden will be able to unify the West to contain and mitigate the serious long term threat it poses to democracy and freedom worldwide.

SNOWFLAKE said:
AH YES, the Red Menace.

Fear of the Red Menace brought ya wars in Vietnam and Korea.

YET - let's all buy our jeans from China and ship them our hazardous waste.

THERE ARE solutions y'all - such as bolstering our alliances in the Pacific - example would be the TPP - but having Trump nix it sure didn't help our cause to box in China.
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While I approve of a diplomatic approach that unifies the West and our allies in the East against China to contain and negate its power, Trump may have been right to nix the TPP. At the very least it was in sore need of a complete rework: as it existed, far more than anything else, it represented an unacceptably massive and even dystopian increment to multinational corporate power; unifying against China does not, should not, and must not necessitate or require massive giveaways of power and autonomy to plutocrats.
 
Surrealistik said:
China is the modern day Evil Empire and should be treated and regarded as such; it is a brutal totalitarian society that tyrannizes its people, aggressively leverages its economic and military might to domineer discourse and destroy freedom worldwide, and is currently persecuting multiple and unspeakably heinous genocides. Hopefully Biden will be able to unify the West to contain and mitigate the serious long term threat it poses to democracy and freedom worldwide.


While I approve of a diplomatic approach that unifies the West and our allies in the East against China to contain and negate its power, Trump may have been right to nix the TPP. At the very least it was in sore need of a complete rework: as it existed, far more than anything else, it represented an unacceptably massive and even dystopian increment to multinational corporate power; unifying against China does not, should not, and must not necessitate or require massive giveaways of power and autonomy to plutocrats.
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China is not a system that anyone who has lived under it would admire.

Let the west listen to the voices that have gotten out.
 
Surrealistik said:
Hopefully Biden will be able to unify the West to contain
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Nice sentiment, but how? Militarily again?
Surrealistik said:
Trump may have been right to nix the TPP.
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If a deal is flawed, work with it, don't nix it.
Check out China's Silk Road and construction projects in Africa.
While the U.S. sets up military bases around the world, China is expanding it's economic influence and winning hearts with construction projects.
 
SNOWFLAKE said:
Nice sentiment, but how? Militarily again?

If a deal is flawed, work with it, don't nix it.
Check out China's Silk Road and construction projects in Africa.
While the U.S. sets up military bases around the world, China is expanding it's economic influence and winning hearts with construction projects.
Click to expand...
Yes it is a seduction and a down payment on ownership and control.
Did you think it was a gesture of love and the brotherhood of man?
No government is interested in anything but control.
 
Well with the dysfunctional divide in America not much chance we will put up a real policy to defuse the China problem. The G7 showed that very clearly. They are very happy that Biden has replaced Trump. But with Mitch McConnell and Joe Manchin blocking everything Biden tries to do they don't see much help coming from America. And who knows Trump or someone like him could easily be back in control in a few years.
 
Looks like China is eyeing the idea of threatening the US from both the Atlantic and Pacific.

And the African Atlantic bases being considered are closer to the US than their Pacific bases.

To what end?

www.the-sun.com

China to dominate Atlantic with navy bases across Africa, warns US general

CHINA is posing a growing threat in Africa and is looking to set up naval bases there to dominate the Atlantic, a top US general has warned. U.S. Gen. Stephen Townsend said Beijing is looking to e…
www.the-sun.com www.the-sun.com
 
SNOWFLAKE said:
Nice sentiment, but how? Militarily again?

If a deal is flawed, work with it, don't nix it.
Check out China's Silk Road and construction projects in Africa.
While the U.S. sets up military bases around the world, China is expanding it's economic influence and winning hearts with construction projects.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that the TPP should have been reworked, but if the choice came down to passing it as it was, and nixing it, I'd have to go with the latter.

And yes, cooperative economic projects are a great way to foment the unity needed to properly contain China and its dire ambitions. Chinese containment should run the full gamut: militarily (the South China Sea is a pretty good example of what happens if you don't), politically and economically.
 
The
rickc said:
Well with the dysfunctional divide in America not much chance we will put up a real policy to defuse the China problem. The G7 showed that very clearly. They are very happy that Biden has replaced Trump. But with Mitch McConnell and Joe Manchin blocking everything Biden tries to do they don't see much help coming from America. And who knows Trump or someone like him could easily be back in control in a few years.
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The US Democrats control the presidency and both houses of Congress. Legislation can not even be voted on unless the Democratic committees allow it.

US it is time to stop adolescently blaming Trump when everything is in the Democratic lap. It was convenient before but now it is the US Democrat’s game to win or lose.

It is their responsibility alone.
 
Moot said:
Nothing...because Turkey isn't going to attack Greece.
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China might attack Turkey from the rear with Greece
 
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