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How large a threat do you view China?

The United Arab Republic. Unable to adapt to Israeli military advantages, and therefore defeat on the battlefield. led to the collapse of pan Arabism.
Yugoslavia, where advanced military technology, coupled with increased ethnic division, meant that the JNA was unable to successfully repress the various uprisings and hold the country together.
Biafra, which was unable to cope with the Nigerian Federal Government’s superior weaponry.

To name just three examples.
I think your (and his?) premise is insufficient. Your version is "nations which can’t adapt to changing military technology dying [die]." What does that really mean? Do all nations have to adapt to changing military technology or die? A few nations have? The US is one of the most alive governments/countries because it has one of the most powerful military forces? What about the old saying about empires dying?

Are you a believer in "Peace through superior firepower"?
 
I think your (and his?) premise is insufficient. Your version is "nations which can’t adapt to changing military technology dying [die]." What does that really mean? Do all nations have to adapt to changing military technology or die? A few nations have? The US is one of the most alive governments/countries because it has one of the most powerful military forces? What about the old saying about empires dying?

Are you a believer in "Peace through superior firepower"?

Nations which don’t adapt die or are conquered. Again, history shows that quite clearly. Pretending one can bury their head in the sand and conflict will never show up is incredibly foolish.

But that’s usual for you
 
Well IF they do get those Glass Lithium batteries perfected then they will be very dangerous. and China is a major player in that field
Yes SOSUS " was very good
I was an ST" O" when I first went in the navy then we became OT's we ran the SOSUS stations
( you sound like you may have been one too.)
and I can say it can be fun when you have 5 or 6 Foxtrots transiting by all at the same time,
watched them go to Cuba in 72/73
Have a nice night

No, but I am very well read on most things military, especially during the Cold War. I even grew up playing with an actual honest to god replica of a DEW line station. My dad back then worked for LITTON, and one of the things he got they were throwing away was a scale model of what such a station would look like, complete with roughly 1"x1"x3" replicas of 2 man RADAR consoles (I used to use my "green army men" inside of it). I had no idea what it was then, it was about 4 feet by 4 feet, made of wood, and looked really cool when I was 6. And years later I realized that the coffee mugs he had in his hutch at home were all from Cold War era RADAR and other defense programs he had been a part of. Plus I knew a guy that was a nuke tech on a Boomer in the 1990's (and another on a Nuke Fast Attack in the 1970's). A lot of talking with them over years also filled in a lot more gaps.

Things like how the latter one was almost dismissive of the capabilities of the Chinese nukes, and the joke among the SONAR operators was that they had to remove their headphones if they were around because they were so loud. The Soviets were better, but still nowhere near as good as our subs were. Tom Clancy himself (who was VERY well versed in Naval technology) once described trying to find a US sub as "finding a black hole at night". Look for the extra quiet spot in the background, and that is the US sub occluding the background noise just by being there.

But overall, it does not matter what fantasy technology China might develop. "Glass batteries", Unobtanium Batteries, or anything else. Batteries still have a set lifespan before they need recharging, and recharging takes power. And firing up diesel generators makes a hell of a racket. And with our SONAR capabilities, we will detect it unless it is very close to the Chinese mainland. And unlike the Soviets, China still does not have a "Blue Water Navy". Almost all Naval assets rarely venture very far outside of their territorial waters.

And in that case, we have other assets. Like the P-3 Orion and P-8 Poseidon. They would have to be at almost a crawl to get past the sonorbouys in passive mode, and there is nothing to be done if we throw some out in active mode. Not to mention it is impossible for them to avoid being detected by MAD. So they would have to pull a page out of "Red Storm Rising" and have their boats hiding on the bottom next to a known WWII era wreck in the hopes we sail over it to even hope to get past those kinds of defenses to put a fish into one of our ships.

They are not going to be a threat anywhere in the mid-Pacific, as their logistical ability to support subs on long cruises at sea largely does not exist. The Soviets were great at it, the Chinese have never cared about it. I take the Soviets much more seriously even 30 years ago than I do the Chinese today when it comes to the PLAN, because they have never shown any indication to use it in any way other than as an "upgunned coast guard".
 
It's simplistic because there's boatloads more to products made in China than whether or not Americans buy them.

And your point is what, exactly? Seems more to me that you are making excuses as to why we should continue to buy from China, no matter what.

Myself, I have long ago sworn off any that I can avoid. And the suppression of their press is even more so. The closing of their last free news agency for me just made that more important.
 
Our problems with China are almost one hundred percent self-inflicted.
Half a century ago, Russia was doing the "Let's you and him fight" gambit, trying to push USA into a war with China so they could get us off their back.
Our biggest mistake was to respond by flipping the script and then making overtures to China that included lucrative trade agreements that basically resembled an FLDS Mormon pimping off a fourteen year old daughter to a 60 year old polygamous friend for marriage.
We gave them everything they wanted, they gave us nothing in return other than poorly made disposable cheap consumer goods.
Today, our domestic manufacturing is on life support because China is now "the world's factory" and the legacy of solidly built high quality American goods is something no one born after 1975 even remembers.

And we helped make that possible by opening up the US market with pretty much zero restrictions.
Entire US industries no longer exist because we trained American consumers to absolutely LOVE cheap crap Made in China.

PS: A recent survey by the Boston Consulting Group found that 80 percent of 5,000 consumers were willing to pay more for products made in America, including electronics.
The same study found Chinese consumers were also willing to pay more for American-made products.

(Beach Boys composer Brian Wilson with a McIntosh 240 and a Scully 280 reel to reel tape deck - both made in USA)

brian-wilson-mc240.ashx
 
No, but I am very well read on most things military, especially during the Cold War. I even grew up playing with an actual honest to god replica of a DEW line station. My dad back then worked for LITTON, and one of the things he got they were throwing away was a scale model of what such a station would look like, complete with roughly 1"x1"x3" replicas of 2 man RADAR consoles (I used to use my "green army men" inside of it). I had no idea what it was then, it was about 4 feet by 4 feet, made of wood, and looked really cool when I was 6. And years later I realized that the coffee mugs he had in his hutch at home were all from Cold War era RADAR and other defense programs he had been a part of. Plus I knew a guy that was a nuke tech on a Boomer in the 1990's (and another on a Nuke Fast Attack in the 1970's). A lot of talking with them over years also filled in a lot more gaps.

Things like how the latter one was almost dismissive of the capabilities of the Chinese nukes, and the joke among the SONAR operators was that they had to remove their headphones if they were around because they were so loud. The Soviets were better, but still nowhere near as good as our subs were. Tom Clancy himself (who was VERY well versed in Naval technology) once described trying to find a US sub as "finding a black hole at night". Look for the extra quiet spot in the background, and that is the US sub occluding the background noise just by being there.

But overall, it does not matter what fantasy technology China might develop. "Glass batteries", Unobtanium Batteries, or anything else. Batteries still have a set lifespan before they need recharging, and recharging takes power. And firing up diesel generators makes a hell of a racket. And with our SONAR capabilities, we will detect it unless it is very close to the Chinese mainland. And unlike the Soviets, China still does not have a "Blue Water Navy". Almost all Naval assets rarely venture very far outside of their territorial waters.

And in that case, we have other assets. Like the P-3 Orion and P-8 Poseidon. They would have to be at almost a crawl to get past the sonorbouys in passive mode, and there is nothing to be done if we throw some out in active mode. Not to mention it is impossible for them to avoid being detected by MAD. So they would have to pull a page out of "Red Storm Rising" and have their boats hiding on the bottom next to a known WWII era wreck in the hopes we sail over it to even hope to get past those kinds of defenses to put a fish into one of our ships.

They are not going to be a threat anywhere in the mid-Pacific, as their logistical ability to support subs on long cruises at sea largely does not exist. The Soviets were great at it, the Chinese have never cared about it. I take the Soviets much more seriously even 30 years ago than I do the Chinese today when it comes to the PLAN, because they have never shown any indication to use it in any way other than as an "upgunned coast guard".
Well before Jonny Walker red sold us out it was no problem finding and tracking any of the Russian subs.
He sold them info on SOSUS not necessarily how it worked ( still secret ) but what it was capable of , so after that they started making their subs more quiet and harder to detect
and that is when we up graded SOSUS and still could find them .it was harder but we did a pretty good job
and if it wasn't for the D/E subs.having to run their engines to charge their batteries they would be a lot harder to find
as I said if this new Battery works out as they say it is
at the same size as the batteries in a sub now these batteries could go for days and days with out charging and when they did have to charge and the charging time is as short as they are saying we could find them at that spot then and they would be gone in no time
we would have to get a sub or like you say a P3 on them right away
and the old P3's are getting phased out too old but did do a really good job working with SOSUS
we would find the Russian sub and send the info in so they could get a P3 on them
Have a nice day
 
Just a short answer. I belive China is not equipped politically to be threat. While their weapons "may" be workable they have shot themseleves in the foot diplomatically. Their biggest problem right now is feeding their people.
 
Well before Jonny Walker red sold us out it was no problem finding and tracking any of the Russian subs.
He sold them info on SOSUS not necessarily how it worked ( still secret ) but what it was capable of , so after that they started making their subs more quiet and harder to detect
and that is when we up graded SOSUS and still could find them .it was harder but we did a pretty good job
and if it wasn't for the D/E subs.having to run their engines to charge their batteries they would be a lot harder to find
as I said if this new Battery works out as they say it is
at the same size as the batteries in a sub now these batteries could go for days and days with out charging and when they did have to charge and the charging time is as short as they are saying we could find them at that spot then and they would be gone in no time
we would have to get a sub or like you say a P3 on them right away
and the old P3's are getting phased out too old but did do a really good job working with SOSUS
we would find the Russian sub and send the info in so they could get a P3 on them
Have a nice day

Go back to what I said before about "Conservation of Energy".

A battery is just a storage device, you still have to produce the energy to put into it. If you have a battery that will take a huge charge, you are going to need a source to provide a huge amount of energy into it.

If the charging time was shortened, that will mandate absolutely huge generators in order to do so. Which means a huge amount of noise. Noise that will be a giant red flag to any SONAR operator within thousands of miles. The fact that it will be shorter does not matter, they will be able to triangulate the area it came from, and know where to start hunting.

This is what many seem to fail to grasp. This is not accurate, but imagine a battery can store 100,000 watts of power. Well, you still have to get that 100,000 watts into it. You can run a 10,000 watt energy source for 10 hours, or a 100,000 watt energy source for 1 hour. Or a 1,000 watt energy source for 100 hours. Either way, you have to run generators for a period of time to put that energy in. The faster you do it, the louder the generators creating that energy are going to be. Batteries do not "make" energy, they only store it.

This is why most WWII subs actually spent most of their time on the surface. They could not store a lot of energy in their batteries, and were constantly recharging them. They are indeed better now, but you still need generators, and even DE subs tend to put in smaller generators than they can, in order to reduce the acoustic profile. Rising to snorkel depth at night and using as quiet of a generator as they can, even if that means spending 10 hours doing it then moving at a crawl the next day in order to make the battery last the next day.

And what John Walker sold was primarily information on how US Navy cryptography equipment worked. Which is why in 1968 North Korea seized the USS Pueblo. Almost all of the crypto gear on board went immediately to the Soviets, so they could verify that Walker had been telling them the truth.
 
Go back to what I said before about "Conservation of Energy".

A battery is just a storage device, you still have to produce the energy to put into it. If you have a battery that will take a huge charge, you are going to need a source to provide a huge amount of energy into it.

If the charging time was shortened, that will mandate absolutely huge generators in order to do so. Which means a huge amount of noise. Noise that will be a giant red flag to any SONAR operator within thousands of miles. The fact that it will be shorter does not matter, they will be able to triangulate the area it came from, and know where to start hunting.

This is what many seem to fail to grasp. This is not accurate, but imagine a battery can store 100,000 watts of power. Well, you still have to get that 100,000 watts into it. You can run a 10,000 watt energy source for 10 hours, or a 100,000 watt energy source for 1 hour. Or a 1,000 watt energy source for 100 hours. Either way, you have to run generators for a period of time to put that energy in. The faster you do it, the louder the generators creating that energy are going to be. Batteries do not "make" energy, they only store it.

This is why most WWII subs actually spent most of their time on the surface. They could not store a lot of energy in their batteries, and were constantly recharging them. They are indeed better now, but you still need generators, and even DE subs tend to put in smaller generators than they can, in order to reduce the acoustic profile. Rising to snorkel depth at night and using as quiet of a generator as they can, even if that means spending 10 hours doing it then moving at a crawl the next day in order to make the battery last the next day.

And what John Walker sold was primarily information on how US Navy cryptography equipment worked. Which is why in 1968 North Korea seized the USS Pueblo. Almost all of the crypto gear on board went immediately to the Soviets, so they could verify that Walker had been telling them the truth.
Well I have to agree with you on most things
what I am saying is they are working with this glass lith. battery and IF the do get it to do what they are saying it will do they can have some real dangerous D/E subs
as I said IF
they say they can charge in a short time and run 10 to 15 times longer then old ones
as For walker He did everything you said and also sold the Sosus info tell the Russians that their subs were very noise and that Sosus could detect them thousands of miles away not just hundreds like they though
as I said I was in the Sosus system in 70 and that wasn't too long after we figured out all the damage he did
Have a nice day
 
America is, sadly, a dying empire. Were it not the Chinese someone else would be overtaking us. I'm more concerned with the rot at home than with which foreign power is benefiting from it.

I agree America is a decaying empire, but I don’t think China will be ascendent. They’re in a giant demographic sink right now. Their military and economic power is likely at its Zenith now, and their previous one child policy leading to a 130 to 100 boy girl ratio is not just a numbers problem on a spreadsheet, it means that women are a scarce commodity and so they end up dating for a decade just like us and having no or few children
 
I agree America is a decaying empire, but I don’t think China will be ascendent. They’re in a giant demographic sink right now. Their military and economic power is likely at its Zenith now, and their previous one child policy leading to a 130 to 100 boy girl ratio is not just a numbers problem on a spreadsheet, it means that women are a scarce commodity and so they end up dating for a decade just like us and having no or few children
/// "I agree America is a decaying empire......" /// <---This from the guy who posted earlier that animals are property, and has no problem with them being treated, and disposed of like trash. Geez, I wonder if you realize you are part of the problem, as opposed to being part of the solution. :rolleyes: (n)(n)
 
/// "I agree America is a decaying empire......" /// <---This from the guy who posted earlier that animals are property, and has no problem with them being treated, and disposed of like trash. Geez, I wonder if you realize you are part of the problem, as opposed to being part of the solution. :rolleyes: (n)(n)
Animals, at least domesticated ones owned by people, are property.

Maybe you’re a doctrinaire vegan, but virtually everyone wears shoes or clothing made with leather and eats meat or eggs or other animal products
 
Animals, at least domesticated ones owned by people, are property.

Maybe you’re a doctrinaire vegan, but virtually everyone wears shoes or clothing made with leather and eats meat or eggs or other animal products
Just a reminder, in case you flunked biology 101 in Jr. High School. Homo Sapiens/ Human Beings are "animals." Correct?
 
Just a reminder, in case you flunked biology 101 in Jr. High School. Homo Sapiens/ Human Beings are "animals." Correct?
No, we are humans.

Humans are not animals, animals are not humans. Although it doesn’t surprise me you would would take the line of the scientistic religion.
 
No, we are humans.

Humans are not animals, animals are not humans. Although it doesn’t surprise me you would would take the line of the scientistic religion.
So it appears you did flunk Biology 101. There are two 'primary' Kingdoms in biology. Animals and Plant. Which of the two do 'humans' belong to? lol.... 🍿/// scientific religion /// 😄
 
So it appears you did flunk Biology 101. There are two 'primary' Kingdoms in biology. Animals and Plant. Which of the two do 'humans' belong to? lol.... 🍿/// scientific religion /// 😄
We are not animals in the sense dogs and cows and mosquitos are animals.

We are capable of moral thought, animals are not
 
We are not animals in the sense dogs and cows and mosquitos are animals.

We are capable of moral thought, animals are not
Please keep moving those goalposts, EMN. That helps us discern your ignorance of basic 'facts' as you peel back those layers of ignorance for us, one post at a time. But points for admitting you were incorrect, and admitting Humans/Homo Sapiens are indeed 'animals.'
 
Please keep moving those goalposts, EMN. That helps us discern your ignorance of basic 'facts' as you peel back those layers of ignorance for us, one post at a time. But points for admitting you were incorrect, and admitting Humans/Homo Sapiens are indeed 'animals.'
I don’t believe we are animals. There’s a reason we don’t use the term animal to refer to humans in colloquial speech

I reject the idea we should put humans in the plant or animal kingdom. We are neither
 
I don’t believe we are animals. There’s a reason we don’t use the term animal to refer to humans in colloquial speech

I reject the idea we should put humans in the plant or animal kingdom. We are neither
Your feelings/beliefs are irrelevant to facts, FYI.
 
Bullshit. Thanks for peeling back yet another layer of that ignorance.
No, it’s not.

Humans have moral agency, animals do not. There’s a clear distinction
 
Nations which don’t adapt die or are conquered. Again, history shows that quite clearly.
How many nations have died in the past 100 years because they didn't keep up with the technological advances of military violence? You're trying to apply an old idea to modern times and you're trying to apply it to every nation. The US military could basically destroy the whole world by detonating its nuclear arsenal. Is the US going to be the only country that survives? I'm not talking about surviving nuclear stupidity, I'm talking about your premise that every nation has to keep up with military technology or die. Nonsense.

Pretending one can bury their head in the sand and conflict will never show up is incredibly foolish.

But that’s usual for you
Straw man melodramatic nonsense.
 
How many nations have died in the past 100 years because they didn't keep up with the technological advances of military violence? You're trying to apply an old idea to modern times and you're trying to apply it to every nation. The US military could basically destroy the whole world by detonating its nuclear arsenal. Is the US going to be the only country that survives? I'm not talking about surviving nuclear stupidity, I'm talking about your premise that every nation has to keep up with military technology or die. Nonsense.


Straw man melodramatic nonsense.

I literally already gave you multiple examples. And that’s not even counting nations which didn’t “die”, per se, but were conquered or became a puppet state as a result of their enemy’s having superior weaponry.

Not every problem can be solved by deploying nukes. Nukes ensure that the US will never be invaded and prevent nations such as China from attacking US allies, but they aren’t the solution to every issue.....and don’t eliminate the danger of falling behind technologically in other areas.

And no amount of sobbing about “reactionaries” can change that
 
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