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How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent

Europe in general (there are 44 countries in Europe) hasn't eschewed masks or social distancing.
Interesting. Well, I may defer to your experience in proximatey, vs my looking from over the pond.

But I did get that from a recent article where it was claimed the virus is high once again in Europe, and much was made of the recent vacation & tourist seasons along with subsequent restrictions removals. There were several pics of Europeans enjoying the cafe and beach life in crowds without masks, so I picked-up on the article.

Are you saying maks & distancing are still de rigueur?
 
The discussion yesterday was that, like the flu shot (which I get every year), the COVID-19 shot will become an annual expectation. I'm curious why you don't get it when it has been largely demonstrated to be safe and effective. Only about 37% of the popuation gets the flu vaccine in any given year, which is why we still have 10s of thousands of unnecessary flu fatalities annually.
I remember a disaster called 'Swine Flu' back when it was the first one. Since then, I've been wary. But mainly, I simply don't see the need. I'm healthy, not in any risk group. I've had flu's before, and they were no big thing. So, I don't see a compelling need. It's basically how I feel about taking any drugs:

'"Do I have a compelling need?"[/i]

If 'not', I don't take it.
 
Dude I don't know what you're talking about. Europe has been BIG on masks and social distancing and as such has had far less infections and deaths per capita than the US. In Germany you can't go anywhere without a mask and it's been like this since March.
Yeah, I might be in error here. I responded to someone else above, concern this very thing. I read a recent article claiming Europe had escalating cases due to the tourist & vacation seasons, along with relaxed mitigation. There were several pics of crowded bars & beaches with no one wearing masks, and I apparently made a poor assumption.
 
How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent - CNN

But Europe can take some comfort from experience. Professor Mark Woolhouse, an epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, told CNN earlier this month that the initial lockdown was "never, ever going to solve the problem for us in Europe or anywhere else; it was simply deferring it."

----------------------------

I just don't know. If Europe, South Korea, New Zealand can't even open up without increasing case numbers, as strict, dedicated and cautious as they are ( especially compared to people in the United States), maybe this thing is going to beat us. Depressing news.

I highly recommend that you all look for some books on the Spanish flu pandemic. There are several, and any one will do.

I've read two, one nonfiction, one a fictional historical novel that appears to be historically accurate. We were still in the middle of WWI, when the press was muzzled and prevented from reporting on the disease outbreak. Military recruits were dying of flu in boot camp. So many people were dying that funeral homes could not handle all the dead; hence, burials in mass graves. President Wilson was preoccupied with the war, and dealing with the pandemic was left to localities. Those that imposed strict quarantine, social distancing, and mask wearing requirements had more success at keeping the spread of disease to a minimum than those that did little to nothing.

A parade in Philadelphia was followed by a spike in new cases days later.

And people did indeed rebel against constraints imposed on them by authorities.

i found the parallels between then and now downright eerie.

i also found it reassuring to realize that this too shall pass. Eventually, this outbreak will die down. Until then, this elderly diabetic will live carefully to minimize my risks. I’m fortunate that my husband and I are retired and have each other for company, and a steady retirement income. I order my groceries online for delivery and my hobby And volunteer groups are meeting via Zoom. The one place I go to is the gym, where they are downright obsessive about disinfecting everything. My personal trainer wipes down every piece of equipment that I’ve touched with a disinfecting wipe. I decided that going to the gym was worth it to keep my strength up.
 
I do recall the pasting that Sweden copped on here for their approach, currently they have a very low infection rate v the rest of Europe.
But when the rest of Europe was seeing their levels drop Sweden had a spike. But it is my understanding that they do not have a mask mandate and they never shut everything down including schools from K- 16 years of age to my knowledge. They also made the same blunder as many have in returning the elderly with Covid back to nursing homes. They do constantly encourage washing hands and social distance. Now their neighboring countries like Finland closed their schools yet their testing of positive cases in the children are pretty much equal with Sweden's who are open. Is there something we could learn from Sweden?
 
But when the rest of Europe was seeing their levels drop Sweden had a spike. But it is my understanding that they do not have a mask mandate and they never shut everything down including schools from K- 16 years of age to my knowledge. They also made the same blunder as many have in returning the elderly with Covid back to nursing homes. They do constantly encourage washing hands and social distance. Now their neighboring countries like Finland closed their schools yet their testing of positive cases in the children are pretty much equal with Sweden's who are open. Is there something we could learn from Sweden?

Yeah, don't be as lax as they were. Human lives are more important than going to the bar.
 
I highly recommend that you all look for some books on the Spanish flu pandemic. There are several, and any one will do.

I've read two, one nonfiction, one a fictional historical novel that appears to be historically accurate. We were still in the middle of WWI, when the press was muzzled and prevented from reporting on the disease outbreak. Military recruits were dying of flu in boot camp. So many people were dying that funeral homes could not handle all the dead; hence, burials in mass graves. President Wilson was preoccupied with the war, and dealing with the pandemic was left to localities. Those that imposed strict quarantine, social distancing, and mask wearing requirements had more success at keeping the spread of disease to a minimum than those that did little to nothing.

A parade in Philadelphia was followed by a spike in new cases days later.

And people did indeed rebel against constraints imposed on them by authorities.

i found the parallels between then and now downright eerie.

i also found it reassuring to realize that this too shall pass. Eventually, this outbreak will die down. Until then, this elderly diabetic will live carefully to minimize my risks. I’m fortunate that my husband and I are retired and have each other for company, and a steady retirement income. I order my groceries online for delivery and my hobby And volunteer groups are meeting via Zoom. The one place I go to is the gym, where they are downright obsessive about disinfecting everything. My personal trainer wipes down every piece of equipment that I’ve touched with a disinfecting wipe. I decided that going to the gym was worth it to keep my strength up.
Thank you for the discussion. I too hope this passes.
 
The impending wave of seasonal flu may amplify Cov19. Researchers from MPI-IB have reconstructed the pandemic and found that with the end of the flu wave in spring, the course of Cov19 has lost strength. This is related to the fact that influenza viruses cause increased production of receptors that the coronavirus needs to dock to human cells.

https://www.mpiib-berlin.mpg.de/2034513/news_publication_15373608_transferred

If this is even remotely true, hygiene and the wearing of masks will become even more important.
 
Interesting. Well, I may defer to your experience in proximatey, vs my looking from over the pond.

But I did get that from a recent article where it was claimed the virus is high once again in Europe, and much was made of the recent vacation & tourist seasons along with subsequent restrictions removals. There were several pics of Europeans enjoying the cafe and beach life in crowds without masks, so I picked-up on the article.

Are you saying maks & distancing are still de rigueur?

If I go to a supermarket or shopping mall, 99% of people will be wearing masks. I can only speak for my country, but as far as I know, masks are mandated in indoor settings in most European countries. Obviously, wearing a mask while at a cafe would result in not being able to eat the food!
 
Interesting. Well, I may defer to your experience in proximatey, vs my looking from over the pond.

But I did get that from a recent article where it was claimed the virus is high once again in Europe, and much was made of the recent vacation & tourist seasons along with subsequent restrictions removals. There were several pics of Europeans enjoying the cafe and beach life in crowds without masks, so I picked-up on the article.

Are you saying maks & distancing are still de rigueur?

Guessing the article you read was made by a right wing rag because it is not true. Sounds like it anyways, blaming migration and foreigners. Germany analysed their cases and found only around 3% or something like that was due to Germans going on vacation to Spain/Italy/France.

The outbreak in Spain is due to opening up too fast in Aragon and parts of Catalonia basically. They did not have it under full control in an agriculture region or main city (can debate where the original cluster came from), and that spread from there when the companies were shut down and migrant (Spanish) workers returned home in the surrounding regions. Basically the local authorities ****ed up (not that they would admit it).

Add in the Spanish being a very social people and you got a problem. The spread here is in homes and jobs basically (due to spread in homes). I personally know of at least 2 family gatherings that have resulted in a dozen infections and all because of a birthday. Also have heard of funerals causing mass outbreaks due to the "wake" afterwards and such things.

Tourism was relatively small and we did not see any major nutso outbreaks that were linked to tourism. The only one remotely linked and that I am aware of is in Marbella among the uber wealthy and that was linked to a couple of nightclubs... yes big mistake in opening them up.

Masks are and have been mandatory outdoors and especially indoors for months, with the exception of the UK and Scandinavian countries. They have followed suit now, minus Sweden of course.

Point being, the main problem with spread in Europe (as stated elsewhere) is private homes and functions with businesses following right after (usually because of the private homes/functions). Outdoor spread, spread via shopping or public transport is rare as hell and the problem people are anti-maskers and letting your guard down in familiar family/friend environments.

But lets be clear here... the 2nd wave numbers depend on city/region and taking whole country numbers would be a mistake. Asturias in Spain has some of the lowest infection rates in Europe, where as Madrid has some of the highest. Infection rates where I am are considerably lower than say the whole of the UK at the moment.
 
Interesting. Well, I may defer to your experience in proximatey, vs my looking from over the pond.

But I did get that from a recent article where it was claimed the virus is high once again in Europe, and much was made of the recent vacation & tourist seasons along with subsequent restrictions removals. There were several pics of Europeans enjoying the cafe and beach life in crowds without masks, so I picked-up on the article.

Are you saying maks & distancing are still de rigueur?
It all depends on the country and the restrictions imposed by their respective governments. In Britain we're facing renewed restrictions due to irresponsible and ignorant people who can't be bothered to keep themselves and others safe. We are also coming into the virus' favourite seasons; autumn and winter. All the gains we made during summer may well be lost unless the government gets really serious about clamping down on idiots refusing to comply with restrictions. They need to be hit by heavy fines; a penalty that hurts. If they refuse to pay, lock them away.

Edit; PM Boris Johnson has just announced that people must work from home if they can, and fines for mask wearing non-compliant first-offenders will be raised to £200. He said restrictions on more than six people gathering will be in place for at least six months. It will be illegal not to wear a mask in stores, taxis and public transport. We can thank our version of 'libertarians' for that, with the rates of infection among the 20-30 year-olds showing the sharpest increases.
 
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If I go to a supermarket or shopping mall, 99% of people will be wearing masks. I can only speak for my country, but as far as I know, masks are mandated in indoor settings in most European countries. Obviously, wearing a mask while at a cafe would result in not being able to eat the food!

Difficult but not impossible. I for one would like to see some restaurants get creative and come up with entire menus that can be ingested via a large straw!
 
currently as in recently / not overall

Note how much better that Norway and Finland did than the very similar Sweden. But please, don't let the facts get in your accelerationist way. 🤷
 
Guessing the article you read was made by a right wing rag because it is not true. Sounds like it anyways, blaming migration and foreigners. Germany analysed their cases and found only around 3% or something like that was due to Germans going on vacation to Spain/Italy/France.

The outbreak in Spain is due to opening up too fast in Aragon and parts of Catalonia basically. They did not have it under full control in an agriculture region or main city (can debate where the original cluster came from), and that spread from there when the companies were shut down and migrant (Spanish) workers returned home in the surrounding regions. Basically the local authorities ****ed up (not that they would admit it).

Add in the Spanish being a very social people and you got a problem. The spread here is in homes and jobs basically (due to spread in homes). I personally know of at least 2 family gatherings that have resulted in a dozen infections and all because of a birthday. Also have heard of funerals causing mass outbreaks due to the "wake" afterwards and such things.

Tourism was relatively small and we did not see any major nutso outbreaks that were linked to tourism. The only one remotely linked and that I am aware of is in Marbella among the uber wealthy and that was linked to a couple of nightclubs... yes big mistake in opening them up.

Masks are and have been mandatory outdoors and especially indoors for months, with the exception of the UK and Scandinavian countries. They have followed suit now, minus Sweden of course.

Point being, the main problem with spread in Europe (as stated elsewhere) is private homes and functions with businesses following right after (usually because of the private homes/functions). Outdoor spread, spread via shopping or public transport is rare as hell and the problem people are anti-maskers and letting your guard down in familiar family/friend environments.

But lets be clear here... the 2nd wave numbers depend on city/region and taking whole country numbers would be a mistake. Asturias in Spain has some of the lowest infection rates in Europe, where as Madrid has some of the highest. Infection rates where I am are considerably lower than say the whole of the UK at the moment.
Thanks for the detailed response, PeteEU.
 
It all depends on the country and the restrictions imposed by their respective governments. In Britain we're facing renewed restrictions due to irresponsible and ignorant people who can't be bothered to keep themselves and others safe. We are also coming into the virus' favourite seasons; autumn and winter. All the gains we made during summer may well be lost unless the government gets really serious about clamping down on idiots refusing to comply with restrictions. They need to be hit by heavy fines; a penalty that hurts. If they refuse to pay, lock them away.

Edit; PM Boris Johnson has just announced that people must work from home if they can, and fines for mask wearing non-compliant first-offenders will be raised to £200. He said restrictions on more than six people gathering will be in place for at least six months. It will be illegal not to wear a mask in stores, taxis and public transport. We can thank our version of 'libertarians' for that, with the rates of infection among the 20-30 year-olds showing the sharpest increases.
Yeah, I've been following the happenings in Britain. Johnson sounds like a mini-Trump. I hope he learned a lesson from his hospital stay.
 
CDC Director Redfield said it flat out the other day under oath before Congress ... masks and social distancing are the best tools we currently have for protection.
 
Yeah, I've been following the happenings in Britain. Johnson sounds like a mini-Trump. I hope he learned a lesson from his hospital stay.

He did not. He makes mistake after mistake and his government lies like there is no tomorrow.

The Health Minister claims 100+k tests being done, and when the media investigates it is in reality half of that at best. How did he get the 100k tests? Oh yea, you see, the British send out testing kits to people, and that is registered as 1 test.. it is not registered as a test when it is received at a testing centre and is actually you know.. tested. The infuriating part is that the British media has not kept calling the Boris government out on this shit, and continue to allow the government ministers to spread their bs without much of a push back..

Government says there are enough tests, and yet people are being directed 100s km to test centres. Tory member of Parliament asks the Health Minister for help for more tests in his constituency. Minister says yes they are building a new testing centre... MP asks, in my town.. Minister says well... in X town, which is 100 km away. Yes that was a conversation that happened a few days ago.

Basically every country has its problems and governments are doing poorly or good, depending on how that country is set up and realities on the ground and of course politics. But for the most part their policies are some what logical and based on science. But the worst country in Western Europe is by far the UK. The absolute incompetence of the conservative government under Boris Johnston is staggering. They dont even have a track and trace system up and running that works.....Everything is run from London so there is zero local knowledge. One could compare their system to a call centre in India... and that might be more effective. Or the fact that the UK did not stop traveling to the UK before May or June, and then put in idiotic rules that were not enforced and are still pretty much not enforced.. All other countries stopped international travel in February or March. The list of incompetence goes on and on.. and yes it almost makes Trump look professional... almost..
 
Note how much better that Norway and Finland did than the very similar Sweden. But please, don't let the facts get in your accelerationist way. 🤷

The facts are Sweden are doing better than both of those countries right now.
 
We wil get a second wave.

Bookmark this thread.
 
The facts are Sweden are doing better than both of those countries right now.
No, Sweden is emphatically not doing better than her neighbours, despite what your right-wing media is telling you, and they have suffered much higher death rates than their Scandinavian friends across the borders.


 
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No, Sweden is emphatically not doing better than her neighbours, despite what your right-wing media is telling you.



don’t need media, just looked at what is going on in the last bunch of weeks on worldometer
 
If I go to a supermarket or shopping mall, 99% of people will be wearing masks. I can only speak for my country, but as far as I know, masks are mandated in indoor settings in most European countries. Obviously, wearing a mask while at a cafe would result in not being able to eat the food!

That's good to hear about the retail experience, but how has at been with pubs? I remember reading that there were issues with compliance in that particular type of business.
 
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