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How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent

HennyBogan said:
There are quite a few countries in Europe ahead of Sweden on death rate, and those countries are exploding again!
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Sweden has the 5th highest death rate in Europe (exluding micronations).
 
HennyBogan said:
There are quite a few countries in Europe ahead of Sweden on death rate, and those countries are exploding again!
Click to expand...

Almost no one, except health care workers, wears masks in Sweden. Social distancing is recommended 1.5 m. We have no 'second wave' - yet?
 
Metric Mouse said:
How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent - CNN

But Europe can take some comfort from experience. Professor Mark Woolhouse, an epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, told CNN earlier this month that the initial lockdown was "never, ever going to solve the problem for us in Europe or anywhere else; it was simply deferring it."
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If that was the case, then why bother with lockdowns? The strategy should have been herd immunity from the start.
 
Aristaeus said:
Sweden has the 5th highest death rate in Europe (exluding micronations).
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that’s a long way from one of the highest, just exclude them all and you can give Sweden the gold medal, lmfao your narrative is total nonsense
 
Chomsky said:
Like you, I never do flu shots or vaccines. I won't rush out for the vaccine, that's for sure. But if a year from now we're still in the same bind, and the vaccine has a good track-record of being safe & reasonably effective, I might consider it.

But frankly, I'm thinking we'll be in much better shape come the end of next year.
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The discussion yesterday was that, like the flu shot (which I get every year), the COVID-19 shot will become an annual expectation. I'm curious why you don't get it when it has been largely demonstrated to be safe and effective. Only about 37% of the popuation gets the flu vaccine in any given year, which is why we still have 10s of thousands of unnecessary flu fatalities annually.
 
NWRatCon said:
The discussion yesterday was that, like the flu shot (which I get every year), the COVID-19 shot will become an annual expectation. I'm curious why you don't get it when it has been largely demonstrated to be safe and effective. Only about 37% of the popuation gets the flu vaccine in any given year, which is why we still have 10s of thousands of unnecessary flu fatalities annually.
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I don't believe this is the case. The flu vaccine changes each year because which virus goes around changes each year. Additionally, sometimes the virus makers guess wrong which means that the vaccine isn't "effective" that year and cases are worse.
 
Metric Mouse said:
How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent - CNN

But Europe can take some comfort from experience. Professor Mark Woolhouse, an epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, told CNN earlier this month that the initial lockdown was "never, ever going to solve the problem for us in Europe or anywhere else; it was simply deferring it."

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I just don't know. If Europe, South Korea, New Zealand can't even open up without increasing case numbers, as strict, dedicated and cautious as they are ( especially compared to people in the United States), maybe this thing is going to beat us. Depressing news.
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The United States is still on the first wave, and has mismanaged it completely.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
I don't believe this is the case. The flu vaccine changes each year because which virus goes around changes each year. Additionally, sometimes the virus makers guess wrong which means that the vaccine isn't "effective" that year and cases are worse.
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I'm not sure what "I don't believe this is the case" is in reference to, so don't know what to respond to.

The annual flu vaccine effectiveness varies from year to year, it is true (depending on the strain and how well projections have been addressed), but that never means it is "ineffective". Seat belts, for example, only reduce traffic fatalities, they don't "eliminate" them. Does that mean that they are "ineffective"? No.

If flu vaccines were universal, some strains of flu would simply die out - think polio and smallpox. I think there needs to be a better understanding of what "herd immunity" really means.
 
Metric Mouse said:
How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent - CNN

But Europe can take some comfort from experience. Professor Mark Woolhouse, an epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, told CNN earlier this month that the initial lockdown was "never, ever going to solve the problem for us in Europe or anywhere else; it was simply deferring it."

----------------------------

I just don't know. If Europe, South Korea, New Zealand can't even open up without increasing case numbers, as strict, dedicated and cautious as they are ( especially compared to people in the United States), maybe this thing is going to beat us. Depressing news.
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No. Not as compared to the US. Compared to the US, SK and NZ are incomparably better with SK yesterday having 82 new cases and 5 new deaths out of 51M people and NZ having 4 and 0 out of 5M people. Europe, having many countries, with most countries doing better than the US. France and Spain not, UK and Germany better. The diff is, the better performing countries make a big deal out of the slightest uptick and get on it. The US has the Public Health Threat-in-Chief Trump who believes in benign neglect of the virus and his herd mentality following cling to that ignorant non-response.
 
ElChupacabra said:
I think it's possible to open up, the question is how much is opened up since the greater the exposure, the more likely there will be a large surge. So far the northeastern US has managed to open up parts of its economy and managed to maintain the numbers down. One of the things which didn't help is the increase in travel seen in Europe with people going on holiday once they were able to. Of course, the other factor is how careful people were while on holiday. I had a similar concern with the start of the summer vacation period in NY and NJ, but things didn't go sideways fortunately. This fall is going to be a big test since the outdoor option will disappear for a lot of businesses and activities.
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With "opening up" come more risks, that is just simple logic (I know, a challenge for many of us). The critical factor, I think, is how seriously people take and keep mitigation efforts up while they do so. I got a haircut, yesterday. Both I and the stylist wore masks, they had removed all (but one) of the chairs from the waiting area and marked the lobby for social distancing. Since my stylist was unavailable for about 30 minutes, I waited in my car until she was ready.

I watched the Seahawks-Patriots game yesterday. The NFL has a plan in place, which is working so far. Most major sports leagues have as well. Life can go on.

It is evident that in Europe, and in the United States, where people have relaxed their guard, infections have spiked. Events like weddings, Trump rallies and Sturgis have been "super spreader" events. Now is not the time to relax our guards.
 
PoS said:
If that was the case, then why bother with lockdowns? The strategy should have been herd immunity from the start.
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Which should save us in the long run by getting rid of the infirm, as well as most conservative voters. No?
 
Metric Mouse said:
How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent - CNN

But Europe can take some comfort from experience. Professor Mark Woolhouse, an epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, told CNN earlier this month that the initial lockdown was "never, ever going to solve the problem for us in Europe or anywhere else; it was simply deferring it."

----------------------------

I just don't know. If Europe, South Korea, New Zealand can't even open up without increasing case numbers, as strict, dedicated and cautious as they are ( especially compared to people in the United States), maybe this thing is going to beat us. Depressing news.
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Why would it beat us? Lets say worst case is even 10% of everyone dies. 90% dont. The virus can not win because it doesnt want to. It wants to survive so the versions of the virus that dont kill its host will survive.
 
Here are some Australian stats I find informative as we are approaching fall and winter

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www.health.gov.au
 
NWRatCon said:
With "opening up" come more risks, that is just simple logic (I know, a challenge for many of us). The critical factor, I think, is how seriously people take and keep mitigation efforts up while they do so. I got a haircut, yesterday. Both I and the stylist wore masks, they had removed all (but one) of the chairs from the waiting area and marked the lobby for social distancing. Since my stylist was unavailable for about 30 minutes, I waited in my car until she was ready.

I watched the Seahawks-Patriots game yesterday. The NFL has a plan in place, which is working so far. Most major sports leagues have as well. Life can go on.

It is evident that in Europe, and in the United States, where people have relaxed their guard, infections have spiked. Events like weddings, Trump rallies and Sturgis have been "super spreader" events. Now is not the time to relax our guards.
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don’t forget all the rioting, looting and “ protests” by the blm
 
Sweden has more dead than America, if you go by deaths per million population.
 
Overitall said:
That’s terrible news. Someone better come up with an effective vaccine real soon. The social rubber band is about to snap.
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That has been Trumps priority. This virus will only beat those who do not act responsibly. That has already been proven by essential businesses.
 
Mongidig said:
mass rapid testing is what is gonna save the day.
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Testing won't work if you have millions of people in the streets spreading this virus with no clue who they have even been in contact with. What are you going to do test all the protesters and people masquerading as protesters every day. Can we test everyone who had a labor day party and private party who could care less if they spread this virus. You cannot fix stupid.
 
swing_voter said:
Sweden has more dead than America, if you go by deaths per million population.
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That's an important point to note, but the comparison can also be potentially misleading. The United States is big, geographically. It takes longer for a pathogen to spread, so we're catching up.
 
Metric Mouse said:
How it all went wrong (again) in Europe as second wave grips continent - CNN

But Europe can take some comfort from experience. Professor Mark Woolhouse, an epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, told CNN earlier this month that the initial lockdown was "never, ever going to solve the problem for us in Europe or anywhere else; it was simply deferring it."

----------------------------

I just don't know. If Europe, South Korea, New Zealand can't even open up without increasing case numbers, as strict, dedicated and cautious as they are ( especially compared to people in the United States), maybe this thing is going to beat us. Depressing news.
Click to expand...
Trump was intelligent enough to realize this early on. Locking the country down only delays the inevitable. We tried it and had a 33% drop on GDP and over 11.5% unemployment. To lock the country down for a longer time would have caused lots more economic pain and the problem would have come right back as Europe is now seeing.
 
NWRatCon said:
With "opening up" come more risks, that is just simple logic (I know, a challenge for many of us). The critical factor, I think, is how seriously people take and keep mitigation efforts up while they do so. I got a haircut, yesterday. Both I and the stylist wore masks, they had removed all (but one) of the chairs from the waiting area and marked the lobby for social distancing. Since my stylist was unavailable for about 30 minutes, I waited in my car until she was ready.

I watched the Seahawks-Patriots game yesterday. The NFL has a plan in place, which is working so far. Most major sports leagues have as well. Life can go on.

It is evident that in Europe, and in the United States, where people have relaxed their guard, infections have spiked. Events like weddings, Trump rallies and Sturgis have been "super spreader" events. Now is not the time to relax our guards.
Click to expand...


Yep. It's not just about implementing policy but how it is followed that's going to determine its success. The good news is the number of hospitalizations have gone down, but we'll need to see how much they continue to drop and if it can be sustained.
 
bluesmoke said:
No. Not as compared to the US. Compared to the US, SK and NZ are incomparably better with SK yesterday having 82 new cases and 5 new deaths out of 51M people and NZ having 4 and 0 out of 5M people. Europe, having many countries, with most countries doing better than the US. France and Spain not, UK and Germany better. The diff is, the better performing countries make a big deal out of the slightest uptick and get on it. The US has the Public Health Threat-in-Chief Trump who believes in benign neglect of the virus and his herd mentality following cling to that ignorant non-response.
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So there is no option but to remain locked down or face rising infection numbers? Depressing options.
 
Chomsky said:
For the most part Europe pretty much completely backed-off mitigation & embraced the vacation & tourist seasons. I have no idea why they eschewed masks and social distancing. They could have left masks & mild mitigation in place, and likely would have done well (IMO).

The virus is all around us & omnipresent, even when it's beaten down low - as it was in Europe. But when it is beaten down low, IMO it seems reasonably viable to keep it in-check with moderate mitigation. Why does everyone seem to think when the virus goes low, that we have absolute freedom?

We're not going to be clear of this thing for at least another year or two. Stock-up on masks & hand sanitizers, stay out of the bars & churches, and use them.
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Dude I don't know what you're talking about. Europe has been BIG on masks and social distancing and as such has had far less infections and deaths per capita than the US. In Germany you can't go anywhere without a mask and it's been like this since March.
 
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