Hotel fights back after Donald Trump threatens to not pay

[NonoBadDog]

****ing amazing, Trump could walk out on a stage in an adult diaper sucking a pacifier then take a big dump and his bots would defend those actions tooth and nail. I can't stand Hillary but the difference that I see is that those supporting her don't come across as that fevered and blind. They're lukewarm on her. And what I find hilarious is that if Trump was running for the other party spouting the same nonsense you guys would be hammering him. Trump doesn't care about you or the Republican Party, he only cares about himself his name and his brand. The guys a sociopath and a megalomaniac.

I find it funny that you are posting such whiny ass crap unless it is just to vent. I am not justifying anything. You haven't proven that he did anything other than he exists and you are being all pissy about it. It's kind of funny how he is living rent free in your head. I can't imagine being you if he wins. LOL

 

[danarhea]

You know NOTHING. You know what the media has fed you. "What he's known for..." What a joke.

I believe that I can call myself an expert here, since I have more than 30 experience in construction, and my speciality happens to be HVAC design, both residential and commercial. My degrees are in mathematics and electrical engineering, which I got before going into construction. I had originally planned to design semiconductors, but with the price pressure put on them by the Japanese in the 1980's, jobs in that area were hard to come by for a while, which is why I changed fields. I work for a small contracting company today, and have worked for large firms in the past. I consider myself to be an expert in Manual J heat load calculations, which I can still do without the aid of a computer (I hated my thermo class in school, though - LOL).

NOTE: Although I consider myself to be a musician, and a good one too, my day job is what pays the bills, and never quit it. I know musicians who have quit their day jobs, and although some did OK, others ended up in a world of hurt. Not me. I was a coward. LOL.

With 30 years plus of experience in the HVAC industry (my day job), I can tell you for a fact that the hotel is entirely within their right. When designing a building, heat loads are calculated, and these heat loads are for normal occupancy. A heat load design must be passed by whichever governmental entity has jurisdiction in that area. This is done before ground is even broken for construction. Once the system is installed, it is then inspected, and passed if it meets the building code. A designer cannot design an A/C system for the kind of occupancy that existed at the Trump event. If he did, the system would cool off so fast that it would not remove moisture (latent heat) from the air, and you would end up with mold and high humidity inside the building. It would also not pass building code for that very reason. A properly designed commercial system will make the space it was designed for 20-25 degrees cooler than the outside (ambient) temperature. With an unusually large number of people in a room, it is going to be less, due to the heat generated by persons (330 BTUH per person in the room, along with a little extra latent heat per person, in the form of humidity). That significantly adds to the heat load. With a seasonally high ambient temperature, the temperature at which an HVAC system is going to be able to get to is going to be less. There are 2 facets to this. 1) Higher outside ambient temperature means a higher temperature inside and 2) More people than the system was designed to handle means a lower temperature drop. Temperature drop is the delta from the average temperature at the return grilles to the average temperature at the supply grilles. The people load is in addition to the load created by electronics, lights, and other heat generating sources in the space being conditioned. These all contribute to the part of the load that can interfere with temperature drop if an abnormally large load is created. NOTE: The figures I gave are for the Houston Texas area. In other parts of the country, a system may be able to drop the temperature a few extra degrees, due to less ambient humidity (latent heat). However, the physics is still the same.

Since Donald Trump is a general commercial contractor, he is going to know this. Actually, he is required to know this if he is competent at what he does. I assume that Donald Trump is competent. Therefore, Donald Trump was hinting at a way he might attempt to stiff the hotel out of their rightfully deserved pay.

 

[MaggieD]

I believe that I can call myself an expert here, since I have more than 30 experience in construction, and my speciality happens to be HVAC design, both residential and commercial. My degrees are in mathematics and electrical engineering, which I got before going into construction. I had originally planned to design semiconductors, but with the price pressure put on them by the Japanese in the 1980's, jobs in that area were hard to come by for a while, which is why I changed fields. I work for a small contracting company today, and have worked for large firms in the past. I consider myself to be an expert in Manual J heat load calculations, which I can still do without the aid of a computer (I hated my thermo class in school, though - LOL).

NOTE: Although I consider myself to be a musician, and a good one too, my day job is what pays the bills, and never quit it. I know musicians who have quit their day jobs, and although some did OK, others ended up in a world of hurt. Not me. I was a coward. LOL.

With 30 years plus of experience in the HVAC industry (my day job), I can tell you for a fact that the hotel is entirely within their right. When designing a building, heat loads are calculated, and these heat loads are for normal occupancy. A heat load design must be passed by whichever governmental entity has jurisdiction in that area. This is done before ground is even broken for construction. Once the system is installed, it is then inspected, and passed if it meets the building code. A designer cannot design an A/C system for the kind of occupancy that existed at the Trump event. If he did, the system would cool off so fast that it would not remove moisture (latent heat) from the air, and you would end up with mold and high humidity inside the building. It would also not pass building code for that very reason. A properly designed commercial system will make the space it was designed for 20-25 degrees cooler than the outside (ambient) temperature. With an unusually large number of people in a room, it is going to be less, due to the heat generated by persons (330 BTUH per person in the room, along with a little extra latent heat per person, in the form of humidity). That significantly adds to the heat load. With a seasonally high ambient temperature, the temperature at which an HVAC system is going to be able to get to is going to be less. There are 2 facets to this. 1) Higher outside ambient temperature means a higher temperature inside and 2) More people than the system was designed to handle means a lower temperature drop. Temperature drop is the delta from the average temperature at the return grilles to the average temperature at the supply grilles. The people load is in addition to the load created by electronics, lights, and other heat generating sources in the space being conditioned. These all contribute to the part of the load that can interfere with temperature drop if an abnormally large load is created. NOTE: The figures I gave are for the Houston Texas area. In other parts of the country, a system may be able to drop the temperature a few extra degrees, due to less ambient humidity (latent heat). However, the physics is still the same.

Since Donald Trump is a general commercial contractor, he is going to know this. Actually, he is required to know this if he is competent at what he does. I assume that Donald Trump is competent. Therefore, Donald Trump was hinting at a way he might attempt to stiff the hotel out of their rightfully deserved pay.

I am really impressed. This is awesome stuff, Dan. I know it took some time to do. And I'm also surprised that you could put this information out there in a way that even I could understand it. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that a/c systems aren't designed for banquet rooms with full capacity when the weather is as God-awful hot as its been the last week or so.

As to DTs remarks re the hotel bill, thinking the worst of him, he was giving the hotel a heads-up that he was going to wiggle out of paying the full bill. NOT thinking the worst, he was showing the uncomfortable attendees that he understood their discomfort.

It seems to me that we can't really know the workings of his mind or anyone else's. But if it suits DT detractors to always believe the worst of this guy, then it will just as easily suit many of the rest of us to always believe the alternative. Makes the world go 'round and all that jazz.

Thank you for your great post. Here it is only 6:45 am Chicago time. And I've learned something already!

 

[MaggieD]

****ing amazing, Trump could walk out on a stage in an adult diaper sucking a pacifier then take a big dump and his bots would defend those actions tooth and nail. I can't stand Hillary but the difference that I see is that those supporting her don't come across as that fevered and blind. They're lukewarm on her. And what I find hilarious is that if Trump was running for the other party spouting the same nonsense you guys would be hammering him. Trump doesn't care about you or the Republican Party, he only cares about himself his name and his brand. The guys a sociopath and a megalomaniac.

You apparently didn't see man-on-the-street interviews at the DNC night before last. I can't even use your word "bots." They were CLUELESS. "Why do you support Hillary Clinton?" Couldn't get a coherent statement from the lot of them.

A sociopath and megalomaniac. Use these words to describe the Clinton brand, and I'm with ya'.

 

[haymarket]

You apparently didn't see man-on-the-street interviews at the DNC night before last. I can't even use your word "bots." They were CLUELESS. "Why do you support Hillary Clinton?" Couldn't get a coherent statement from the lot of them.

A sociopath and megalomaniac. Use these words to describe the Clinton brand, and I'm with ya'.

So are you voting Trump in November Maggie?

 

[MaggieD]

So are you voting Trump in November Maggie?

So far, yes.

 

[jimbo]

Do you deny that he has a history of refusing to pay for goods and services rendered? Trying to weasel out of his debts?

That's not really the issue. The issue being insufficient AC for the size of the crowd.

 

[jimbo]

I believe that I can call myself an expert here, since I have more than 30 experience in construction, and my speciality happens to be HVAC design, both residential and commercial. My degrees are in mathematics and electrical engineering, which I got before going into construction. I had originally planned to design semiconductors, but with the price pressure put on them by the Japanese in the 1980's, jobs in that area were hard to come by for a while, which is why I changed fields. I work for a small contracting company today, and have worked for large firms in the past. I consider myself to be an expert in Manual J heat load calculations, which I can still do without the aid of a computer (I hated my thermo class in school, though - LOL).

NOTE: Although I consider myself to be a musician, and a good one too, my day job is what pays the bills, and never quit it. I know musicians who have quit their day jobs, and although some did OK, others ended up in a world of hurt. Not me. I was a coward. LOL.

With 30 years plus of experience in the HVAC industry (my day job), I can tell you for a fact that the hotel is entirely within their right. When designing a building, heat loads are calculated, and these heat loads are for normal occupancy. A heat load design must be passed by whichever governmental entity has jurisdiction in that area. This is done before ground is even broken for construction. Once the system is installed, it is then inspected, and passed if it meets the building code. A designer cannot design an A/C system for the kind of occupancy that existed at the Trump event. If he did, the system would cool off so fast that it would not remove moisture (latent heat) from the air, and you would end up with mold and high humidity inside the building. It would also not pass building code for that very reason. A properly designed commercial system will make the space it was designed for 20-25 degrees cooler than the outside (ambient) temperature. With an unusually large number of people in a room, it is going to be less, due to the heat generated by persons (330 BTUH per person in the room, along with a little extra latent heat per person, in the form of humidity). That significantly adds to the heat load. With a seasonally high ambient temperature, the temperature at which an HVAC system is going to be able to get to is going to be less. There are 2 facets to this. 1) Higher outside ambient temperature means a higher temperature inside and 2) More people than the system was designed to handle means a lower temperature drop. Temperature drop is the delta from the average temperature at the return grilles to the average temperature at the supply grilles. The people load is in addition to the load created by electronics, lights, and other heat generating sources in the space being conditioned. These all contribute to the part of the load that can interfere with temperature drop if an abnormally large load is created. NOTE: The figures I gave are for the Houston Texas area. In other parts of the country, a system may be able to drop the temperature a few extra degrees, due to less ambient humidity (latent heat). However, the physics is still the same.

Since Donald Trump is a general commercial contractor, he is going to know this. Actually, he is required to know this if he is competent at what he does. I assume that Donald Trump is competent. Therefore, Donald Trump was hinting at a way he might attempt to stiff the hotel out of their rightfully deserved pay.

The hotel has been around for over a hundred years. I doubt that construction design has much to do with the problem.

So to with the assertion that Trump as a general contractor should do design load calculations on every venue the campaign rents. Really? You need a space, you rent a space. You assume the hotel has done the calculations.

I don't see Trump's off the cuff remark as an issue. Reality is that we have no idea how this turned out. As is typical of these kerfluffels it will get worked out.

The real issue? Trump is drawing such large crowds that the AC can't handle them.

 

[Kushinator]

That happened to me. I asked for a steak medium. It came out well done.
I sent it back then it came out raw and I asked them take it off the bill.
I wasn't going to wait again.

If i order a steak at a restaurant, and it comes out lousy the first time, i certainly do not ask for another one. I order something else. If that comes out lousy, and the manager doesn't offer to take it off the bill, i don't act like a piece of trash and make a scene. Instead, i pay my bill, write a review on yelp/google and never go there again.

It's called having class.

This is just another example that shows Trump doesn't have class.

 

[ludin]

If i order a steak at a restaurant, and it comes out lousy the first time, i certainly do not ask for another one. I order something else. If that comes out lousy, and the manager doesn't offer to take it off the bill, i don't act like a piece of trash and make a scene. Instead, i pay my bill, write a review on yelp/google and never go there again.

It's called having class.

This is just another example that shows Trump doesn't have class.

That is you. Not paying for something that was not delivered is not being trashy.
If the building people didn't meet the expectations and their AC was not working
Properly as it should then he has a complaint.

Part of renting the place includes that the AC is working properly for the number of people.
If they have to bring in portable AC then that is what they have to do.

Throwing their hands up and going well the number of people and the heat outside was to
Much is not a valid excuse.

 

[WCH]

If i order a steak at a restaurant, and it comes out lousy the first time, i certainly do not ask for another one. I order something else. If that comes out lousy, and the manager doesn't offer to take it off the bill, i don't act like a piece of trash and make a scene. Instead, i pay my bill, write a review on yelp/google and never go there again.

It's called having class.

This is just another example that shows Trump doesn't have class.

Using a third person tattle tale site is the classy way to operate?? No you have any issue, you bring it up to the management.

On a recent night out at a restaurant that was highly rated, my Wife ordered a dish that had chicken bones in it. She didn't want to say anything but, for the future safety of our fellow townspeople, I insisted we notify them. The shift manger came to our table to apologize.

 

[Kushinator]

That is you. Not paying for something that was not delivered is not being trashy.

The Trump campaign wasn't just paying for AC.

Throwing their hands up and going well the number of people and the heat outside was to
Much is not a valid excuse.

See Dan's post above.

 

[Taylor]

Using a third person tattle tale site is the classy way to operate?? No you have any issue, you bring it up to the management.

Exactly. It's not being "classy" it's called being passive-aggressive. Yes, the manager would MUCH prefer the opportunity to make you happy than have you squirrel off to Yelp.

 

[Kushinator]

Using a third person tattle tale site is the classy way to operate??

You mean a review site, designed to, you know... review?

No you have any issue, you bring it up to the management.

I absolutely despise this type of customer: the one who views themselves so important, they are willing to disrupt an entire restaurant because something didn't live up to their expectations. Typically, nothing does regardless of the execution.

On a recent night out at a restaurant that was highly rated, my Wife ordered a dish that had chicken bones in it. She didn't want to say anything but, for the future safety of our fellow townspeople, I insisted we notify them. The shift manger came to our table to apologize.

That's different from failed execution.

 

[ludin]

The Trump campaign wasn't just paying for AC.



See Dan's post above.

Nope they were paying for building services to be rendered properly.
If they weren't rendered properly then the that is between the building owner and
trump to work out a compensation.

 

[pdog]

Thank you.



You prefer to believe that he is a crook. I prefer to think that he is an astute businessman. Interesting that your link details two stories after supposedly investigating a few hundred. Shoddy reporting. What was the disposition of the rest of them?

Ok, I'm confused. You spend several posts demanding evidence. Once you got it, you basically just said "i disagree" with no evidence of your own? Did you read the USA today story? This isn't good business. If it were good business, any failure by the affected parties would have been covered by contract terms BEFORE any issue and this crap would never go to court. If it was about work quality, then his general contractors shouldn't be approving the work. And it's not just subcontractors. It's waiters getting snubbed of overtime pay. It's lawers that worked on these stupid suits to begin with who then had to turn around and sue themselves to get paid for trumps lost gamble. This is commissions on sold real estate. Those aren't cases of shoddy work. It's trump refusing to pay for services rendered. And this isn't just one or two cases from 30 years ago. The story does a pretty good job of laying out that this is a trend.

I'm fine if you're thinking the source is skewed. But that is now YOUR burden. If it's shoddy reporting then you should be able to prove that. Find a case that has been under reported. But just walking away from the evidence you demanded on simple difference of opinion isn't debating.

 

[Kushinator]

Exactly. It's not being "classy" it's called being passive-aggressive. Yes, the manager would MUCH prefer the opportunity to make you happy than have you squirrel off to Yelp.

If a manager is not involved enough to come to a table after a dish is sent back... well, i don't even have to finish this statement. A negative review hit's harder.

 

[Kushinator]

Nope they were paying for building services to be rendered properly.
If they weren't rendered properly then the that is between the building owner and
trump to work out a compensation.

As stated, see Dan's post from the previous page.

 

[MaggieD]

Ok, I'm confused. You spend several posts demanding evidence. Once you got it, you basically just said "i disagree" with no evidence of your own? Did you read the USA today story? This isn't good business. If it were good business, any failure by the affected parties would have been covered by contract terms BEFORE any issue and this crap would never go to court. If it was about work quality, then his general contractors shouldn't be approving the work. And it's not just subcontractors. It's waiters getting snubbed of overtime pay. It's lawers that worked on these stupid suits to begin with who then had to turn around and sue themselves to get paid for trumps lost gamble. This is commissions on sold real estate. Those aren't cases of shoddy work. It's trump refusing to pay for services rendered. And this isn't just one or two cases from 30 years ago. The story does a pretty good job of laying out that this is a trend.

I'm fine if you're thinking the source is skewed. But that is now YOUR burden. If it's shoddy reporting then you should be able to prove that. Find a case that has been under reported. But just walking away from the evidence you demanded on simple difference of opinion isn't debating.

Who is walking away from evidence? If you are insinuating that all of your allegations you've made here are somehow evidence, you're wrong.

I guess you're confused because I acknowledged Dan's post as making good sense. I think it does. But does it then follow that DT is going to stiff the hotel? (I'll also say here that campaigns have been stiffing suppliers for decades, but that doesn't matter because to people dead set against Trump, he's the only one that's ever done it. You might want to Google HC in that regard.)

 

[Taylor]

If a manager is not involved enough to come to a table after a dish is sent back... well, i don't even have to finish this statement. A negative review hit's harder.

That's fine and completely in your right as a customer. Let's just not pretend that such behavior is "classy."

 

[jmotivator]

How did they fight back? Was it by admitting they allowed too high an occupancy in the venue? Or that their air conditioning system was under-sized? Boy, they're tough.

It's amazing that some people can ignore someone being grossly negligent with national security while making a federal case about someone else complaining about the lack of air conditioning....

 

[danarhea]

The hotel has been around for over a hundred years. I doubt that construction design has much to do with the problem.

So to with the assertion that Trump as a general contractor should do design load calculations on every venue the campaign rents. Really? You need a space, you rent a space. You assume the hotel has done the calculations.

I don't see Trump's off the cuff remark as an issue. Reality is that we have no idea how this turned out. As is typical of these kerfluffels it will get worked out.

The real issue? Trump is drawing such large crowds that the AC can't handle them.

El wrongo, O stuffy air breath. :mrgreen: Age has absolutely nothing to do with it. If any aspect of the hotel does not meet code, it must then be modified to be code. That is the law in every single state and city. Some things can be grandfathered, but major things like structure, heat loads, and capacity can not.

 

[Kushinator]

That's fine and completely in your right as a customer. Let's just not pretend that such behavior is "classy."

Paying your bill without trying to nickle down the restaurant is an act of class. Only a piece of trash would haggle with a restaurant manager. Only a piece of trash would try and haggle with a hotel.

 

[Winchester]

Very few things are perfect. People like to bitch about service and people like Trump like to use less than perfect service as an excuse to save a nickle. World would be a better place if people learned to let such things go.

 

[Winchester]

Paying your bill without trying to nickle down the restaurant is an act of class. Only a piece of trash would haggle with a restaurant manager. Only a piece of trash would try and haggle with a hotel.

Exactly! It shows absolutely no understanding of the other person who in all likelihood is trying their best to satisfy a customer, it's all about me, me, ME.