Hamas wins majority in parliamentary elections

Dondie · Jan 27, 2006

Hi everyone! This is my first post. I have read the goings on here (this thread) and have to say I agree with G-Man. He seems to be out gunned,just a little. But he seems to have thrown his rose colered glasses away along time ago. Israel it appears to me,are the terrorists. Sharone ,alone has proved that.Just about every head of israel has been a terrorist. Starting back with the stern gang.King David Hotel,you know. Also,our Gov. and media seems to be very hypocritical with the elections. Democracy! Democracy! Let the people vote! They do and what happened? Jeezzz... wouldn't you know? They voted for the wrong party!! My,My,My.

oldreliable67 · Jan 27, 2006

kandahar said:
the bottom line is that it has worked

Key word in there is 'has', as in past tense. That was then. This is now.

FinnMacCool · Jan 27, 2006

I have never believed that any single people, even the Palestinains, are devoid of reasons for why they would've chose these types of leaders. Simply writing them off as 'animals' and 'terrorists' is very much simplifying the matter.

Kandahar · Jan 27, 2006

oldreliable67 said:
Key word in there is 'has', as in past tense. That was then. This is now.

"Has" is present tense FYI...

How is it not working? How many terrorist attacks have there been in Israel since the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza and the building of the fence? How many were there before?

JOHNYJ · Jan 28, 2006

An Israeli official said that people forget .That the German people elected the Nazi govt.
Democracy is messy and doesn't always work for the best.

G-Man · Jan 28, 2006

Connecticutter said:
I'm not convinced here - but I'm not going to check up on the facts because this took place in 1982!! It should have little to do with this discussion.

Please do check the facts, even Israel doesn't dispute them so a google search should suffice.

I also think you miss my point. I'm demonstrating that Israel engaged in acts of terrorism to expand its territory - this is exactly what Hamas and other such palestine militant groups are doing now. Both groups have deliberately murdered civilians trying to force the other from the disputed territories.

The fact it took place in 1982 is irrelevant - acts such as this have greatly contributed to the present situation. Also I believe there is a major criminal trial taking place in the Middle East at the moment, concerning the murder of civilians some 20 years ago.

Until we recognize both sides are seriously in the wrong and take action against both a final solution will not be found. Israel won't give up the West Bank and Jerusalem, Hamas won't give up the fight until they have these places back and all the rest of Palestine. I suggest the status quo will continue for quite some time yet.

Click to expand...

G-Man · Jan 28, 2006

Tashah said:
Ever since my arrival at Debate Politics, I have repeatedly tried to impart upon all of you... the unbridled corruption of those who govern Palestine. In essence, Palestine is and always was... nothing more than a Mafioso state run by greedy criminals and muderous psychopaths. I have also tried my best to impart upon all of you... that it is nigh impossible to come to peaceful terms with creatures such as this.

I can guarantee you this much. With Hamas in power and its founding charter of destroying Israel still intact, there is no one left in Palestine for Israel to officially negotiate with. No Israeli government will ever negotiate with an organization... that openly fosters and commits terrorism. Unofficially and silently, Egypt will almost certainly align itself with Israel in this regard... as it has serious concerns about the the propensity of Hamas to support the Muslim Brotherhood. Mubarak will not allow Palestine to become a sanctuary and launching pad for MB terrorism in Egypt.

Unless the unthinkable happens and Hamas quickly morphs into the Peace Corps, expect Benjamin Netanyahu to form the next Israeli government. For those of you unfamiliar with Mr. Netanyahu, he is an unabashed hawk who resides far to the Israeli political right. Expect no more unilateral concessions or withdrawals from Israel. Once again and so true to form, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

The Palestine govt was corrupt beyond belief and totally incompetent - this was well known. It was one of the most significant factors in so called 'moderates' voting them out. You complain of corruption so the people vote these people out - surely thats a good thing??

Also, if your idea of peace is military occuaption for decades I doubt a solution will ever be found.

Peace can be achieved by all the Palestines cramping into a small bit of the Gaza strip, giving up the rest of their land (including Jerusalem) and happily agreeing to do so OR Israel coudl give backwhat it took which would rapidly diminish the support the militant groups have.

As regards terrorism, well read some of the previous posts and you will see that the history of Israel is littered with terrorist attacks by Israel against Palestines. Its very creation involved terrorism (KD Hotel bombing) - its ok for Israeli groups to do this but not Palestine groups??

Until you recognise the mistakes committed by both sides and recognise that both sides are in the wrong how can you expect to find a solution? By hounding the Palestines and blaming them entirely for the present situation you are unlikely to find a solution agreeable to by both sides.

aquapub · Jan 28, 2006

Dondie said:
Hi everyone! This is my first post. I have read the goings on here (this thread) and have to say I agree with G-Man. He seems to be out gunned,just a little. But he seems to have thrown his rose colered glasses away along time ago. Israel it appears to me,are the terrorists. Sharone ,alone has proved that.Just about every head of israel has been a terrorist. Starting back with the stern gang.King David Hotel,you know. Also,our Gov. and media seems to be very hypocritical with the elections. Democracy! Democracy! Let the people vote! They do and what happened? Jeezzz... wouldn't you know? They voted for the wrong party!! My,My,My.

Israel originally belonged to the Jews. Acting like they are terrorists for taking back what was rightfully theirs 50 years ago (and us for helping them) is like acting outraged that the Blackfoot tribe took back Montana (and that Canada, for instance, helped them).

The Jews have been massacred and had Caanan/Israel taken from them by bloodthirsty Muslim empires over and over again. The Christians were in the fray too, as the Romans, and a whole handful of others.

But ORIGINALLY, it was MADE by the Jews under Abraham.

And after the holocaust (and a hundred other genocidal crusades against the Jews, the world determined that they needed to have their own homeland again if this was ever going to stop happening to them.

Where better than the land that they originally built?

And as far as "holiness" claims that Islam has over Jerusalem, Islam derives everything that is holy from its mother religion, Judaism. Wouldn't the mother religion's claim to holy sites and such trump the claims of a splinter group?

Also, if any historical "injustice" justifies aimless slaughtering of innocents than no peace can ever be achieved for any one of the MANY conflicts like this going on in the world. Remember the IRA? They found peace with British occupation. Hammas IS a terrorist group by definition of their actions, and their only solution is one that will never happen. A middle road must be found or peace will never happen.

The Israelis may seem harsh, but when they act, it is usually in RESPONSE to direct terror attacks on their civilians, and it is a good thing that they are so good at defending themselves (which will only get better under Netanyahu).

It is almost comical though how aggressive they are in defending themselves. They are the only group of people I have ever seen use a hellfire missile to take out a guy in a wheelchair. :lol:

Bergslagstroll · Jan 28, 2006

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Kandahar said:
You know, in the case of most countries with Islamic terrorists I'm willing to draw a clear distinction between terrorists and civilians. I'm the first to agree that in most countries, most people do not support the actions of terrorists. Palestine, however, is the exception. The women support terrorism just as much as the men do, and the children are future terrorists almost without exception. There are almost NO "innocent bystanders" in the world's toilet known as Gaza.

So if it would somehow help protect Israeli civilians to do so, then I'm all for it. Israelis aren't going to walk into Palestinian restaurants with suicide bombs on their backs.

GySgt said:
You are correct. In all of my studies and time facing these issues, "Palestine" is by far the worse place where Radical Islam is so wide sweeping a presence. These are people that are so miserable in their positions in life, so unwilling to do for themselves that they would rather remain mired in poverty and failure than to roll up their sleeves and accept responsibility for themselves. Their fuel to remain this way is Saudi and Iranian influence and global pity and sympathy. They are as near as hopeless a society can be on this earth.

Harsh words, but true.

And how does this make you any better then the terrorist? Or the nazis?

Tashah · Jan 28, 2006

G-Man said:
The Palestine govt was corrupt beyond belief and totally incompetent - this was well known. It was one of the most significant factors in so called 'moderates' voting them out. You complain of corruption so the people vote these people out - surely thats a good thing??

The PA under Abbas is/was also corrupt, abeit to a lesser extent than it was under Arafat's 'stewardship'. Since the total withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlements from Gaza in August of 2005, the Abbas government has attempted meaningful peace negotions with Israel. In stark contrast, terrorist groups in Palestine such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad have lobbed mortars and Qassam rockets into Israel. They have also attempted every avenue to destabilize the Abbas administration. As I plainly stated in my post (perhaps you missed that part), the Palestinians have traded one corrupt regime for another corrupt regime. I daresay however, the applied cure here is substancially worse than the lingering ailment.

G-Man said:
Also, if your idea of peace is military occuaption for decades I doubt a solution will ever be found.

I didn't expound on my notions for peace. Are you prescient or simply taking an unrequited liberty to speak for me?

G-Man said:
Peace can be achieved by all the Palestines cramping into a small bit of the Gaza strip, giving up the rest of their land (including Jerusalem) and happily agreeing to do so OR Israel coudl give backwhat it took which would rapidly diminish the support the militant groups have.

Or... it could be anything else that is negotiated.

G-Man said:
As regards terrorism, well read some of the previous posts and you will see that the history of Israel is littered with terrorist attacks by Israel against Palestines. Its very creation involved terrorism (KD Hotel bombing) - its ok for Israeli groups to do this but not Palestine groups??

If history serves me correctly, a UN Resolution created Israel for the explicit purpose of Jewish settlement. Terrorism has indeed been employed by both sides. Why play the blame game G-Man? Why not address the events of today and perhaps of tomorrow? Why not address the election of Hamas which is the topic of this thread? Doesn't suit your agenda?

G-Man said:
Until you recognise the mistakes committed by both sides and recognise that both sides are in the wrong how can you expect to find a solution? By hounding the Palestines and blaming them entirely for the present situation you are unlikely to find a solution agreeable to by both sides.

Lol. I am not hounding the Palestinians. I simply stated a truism... the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If you believe the election of the Hamas terrorist organization serves the Palestinian people, then that is your personal view. However, that view does not dovetail with the majority of analysis and opinion from around the globe.

I dearly wish for a solution that is agreeable to both sides. However, how does Israel negotiate with an entity birthed on a charter that is dedicated to Israel's destruction? Tell me.

Binary_Digit · Jan 28, 2006

Tashah said:
I dearly wish for a solution that is agreeable to both sides. However, how does Israel negotiate with an entity birthed on a charter that is dedicated to Israel's destruction? Tell me.

By listening to why that entity has such a charter, and strive resolve that particular disagreement, without calling it a "blame game."

If the Jews can claim a right to that land because of something 2000 years ago, why can't the Palestinians claim a right to that land because of something 50 years ago?

If China divided up Texas and gave that land to the Native Americans, would you fight for what's "right" or would you just bend over and let it happen?

When two children fight over a toy, it's a good opportunity to teach them how to share. So I say remove the border, merge the two countries into one, and make them learn how to share the "holy land," in peace, as God intended.

Dondie · Jan 28, 2006

Israel originally belonged to the Jews,Where did you get this from aquapub?

YNKYH8R · Jan 28, 2006

cnredd said:
There probably isn't one evil dictator on earth who actually believes they are an evil dictator either...

Doesn't make it correct though....

No terrorist calls themselves a terrorist...They say "freedom fighter" or "resistance" or some other frilly term to make themselves more appealing...

Nomatter how Hamas describes themselves, they will always be a "spade"...

Then what do we call American Revolutionaries? It's not in the name it's in the act. Then again what is more effective one man blow himself up to kill 30 or 50 or risk losing 10 to 15 men trying to take out the same number? As Americans we will never accept people that kill themselves to meet an agenda. They're called cowards. (Which is no skin off my nose) but unfortunatley they don't view it that way.
Now what is to happen if Iran, Iraq and Palestine join together to eliminate Israel?

YNKYH8R · Jan 28, 2006

oldreliable67 said:
Its incredible how much dough the US has given to the Palestinians. Bush's comments at todays news conference strongly suggest that unless Hamas changes its ways, those days are over. Unfortunately, I suspect some of our high priced crude oil dollars will be recycled into their coffers from some of the other ME Islamic countries to replace it. There is a certain irony in there somewhere.

Shhhh you're ruining the mood. :rofl

YNKYH8R · Jan 28, 2006

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Connecticutter said:
I am suprised that there is no thread about this yet.

What's your take on Hamas winning the Palestinian elections? What should our response be? What should Israel's response be? What does this mean for the future of the peace process?

I open the floor for opinions.

You forgot...what does this say about Democracy?

Binary_Digit · Jan 28, 2006

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

YNKYH8R said:
what does this say about Democracy?

The majority is not always right.

Be careful what you ask for.

Two parties are not enough.

Gardener · Jan 28, 2006

As to the symantics of "freedom fighters" and whatnot, I don't confuse terrorism with guerilla war, myself. Terrorists target civilians BECAUSE they are civilians, while guerilla war involves the selection of strategic targets.

While one might argue that those who engage in guerilla war are freedom fighters, those who engage in terrorism are simply mass murderers. If Hamas attacked only military targets, they would be fighting guerilla war, but they attack civilians so they are terrorist.

JOHNYJ · Jan 28, 2006

AlbqOwl said:
Israel engaged in terrorism? What sort of terrorism did you have in mind? That they kicked the rest of the Arab world's butt the last time the intention was to remove Israel from the face of the earth? Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights were the spoils of war taken in that conflict and held to increase Israel's security against a lot of neighbors who wanted all Jews to be dead.

Even now, the expanded area occupied by Israel wouldn't fill an average New Mexico county, and very few of anybody occupied it until the Jews moved in. Suddenly it was the most desirable piece of real estate in the Middle East.

It doesn't take much dedicated research to find hundreds of incidents in which terrorists have bombed, shot, blown up, or otherwise killed or maimed innocent Israeli men, women, and children. Children seem to be a particularly attractive target to the terrorists. You will find plenty of evidence that Israel has fought back and tightened security, perhaps appropriately, perhaps not, but you won't find any incidents of Israeli's going out to murder innocents just because you want them dead.

And the BBC piece posted reads like no other history of this area I've ever read. I sure wish he listed his sources. I bet
they would be interesting.

In most of the wars Israel fought. The Arabs attacked Israel. In one the U.N. removed the truce observers without telling Israel so the Arabs could attack Israel.
Russia still occupies Japanese teritory,maybe the U N should do something about that.
The election of Hamas proves what barbarians Israel has to contend with.

G-Man · Jan 28, 2006

Tashah said:
The PA under Abbas is/was also corrupt, abeit to a lesser extent than it was under Arafat's 'stewardship'. Since the total withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlements from Gaza in August of 2005, the Abbas government has attempted meaningful peace negotions with Israel. In stark contrast, terrorist groups in Palestine such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad have lobbed mortars and Qassam rockets into Israel. They have also attempted every avenue to destabilize the Abbas administration. As I plainly stated in my post (perhaps you missed that part), the Palestinians have traded one corrupt regime for another corrupt regime. I daresay however, the applied cure here is substancially worse than the lingering ailment.

I didn't expound on my notions for peace. Are you prescient or simply taking an unrequited liberty to speak for me?

Or... it could be anything else that is negotiated.

If history serves me correctly, a UN Resolution created Israel for the explicit purpose of Jewish settlement. Terrorism has indeed been employed by both sides. Why play the blame game G-Man? Why not address the events of today and perhaps of tomorrow? Why not address the election of Hamas which is the topic of this thread? Doesn't suit your agenda?

Lol. I am not hounding the Palestinians. I simply stated a truism... the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If you believe the election of the Hamas terrorist organization serves the Palestinian people, then that is your personal view. However, that view does not dovetail with the majority of analysis and opinion from around the globe.

I dearly wish for a solution that is agreeable to both sides. However, how does Israel negotiate with an entity birthed on a charter that is dedicated to Israel's destruction? Tell me.

1) Why shouldn't Hamas attemp to destablise (and now democratically overthrow) the Abbas administration?? You have already expressed the opinion that it was massively corrupt and considering the amount of time it had been in power without reaching a solution, the problem would appear to be beyond its abilities. With no change the status quo continues.

2) Explain how Hamas is corrupt please - sure their objectives are distressing but Islamic movements are not created for personal wealth/gain, unlike most political parties.

3) Apologies for making an assumption - please tell us your opinion on how peace will be achieved.

4) Yeah a UN Resolution created Israel - not to the borders that it has created for itself though (also didn't include Jerusalem) - the US doesn't help with this either because whilst it recognises Israel it refuses to state exactly what area Israel covers.

5) I'm not playing the name game - I seem to be the only person who acknowledges both sides have committed terrorist attacks and both are in the wrong - I've criticised the Israel's and Palestines for the present situation - every-one else is happy just to blame the palestines.

6) If you want to address the topic ok - we want to spread democracy in the middle east - Palestine has a free and fair election (according to all international advisors) - Hamsas wins. Accept it.

7) Missed oportunity? You criticise the present govt. and they vote in the only other choice they had. Exactly who were they to vote for?

8) I never said electing Hamas would serve the palestine people well so please don't put words in my mouth. We want democracy in the region, well we've got it. If the Palestines want to elect Hamas its up to them - not the US - to decide who will be in govt.

9) Yes negotiation is tough. As usual you only present 1 side to the situation so I'll state the other (even though I also agree with the problems presented by you regarding Israel) :-

a) How does any Palestine authority negotiate with an entity which has used military force to seize their terrority and refuses to give it up?

b) How can they negotiate with an entity who refuses to allow millions of refugees back into their homeland?

c) How can they negotiate the return of Jerusalem when Israel has said this is impossible?

Perhaps you can tell me how the above can be achieved?

The reality is that both sides want it all and neither will negotiate anything away. Thats why international bodies (UN, US or whatever) should just enforce the existing UN mandates, move Israel back to its proper borders and forcibly disarm the Palestine terrorist groups.

Kandahar · Jan 28, 2006

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Bergslagstroll said:
And how does this make you any better then the terrorist? Or the nazis?

Terrorists and nazis killed lots of innocent people. There are almost no innocent people in Gaza. The entire strip is a terrorist camp.

JOHNYJ · Jan 28, 2006

G-Man said:
1) Why shouldn't Hamas attemp to destablise (and now democratically overthrow) the Abbas administration?? You have already expressed the opinion that it was massively corrupt and considering the amount of time it had been in power without reaching a solution, the problem would appear to be beyond its abilities. With no change the status quo continues.

2) Explain how Hamas is corrupt please - sure their objectives are distressing but Islamic movements are not created for personal wealth/gain, unlike most political parties.

3) Apologies for making an assumption - please tell us your opinion on how peace will be achieved.

4) Yeah a UN Resolution created Israel - not to the borders that it has created for itself though (also didn't include Jerusalem) - the US doesn't help with this either because whilst it recognises Israel it refuses to state exactly what area Israel covers.

5) I'm not playing the name game - I seem to be the only person who acknowledges both sides have committed terrorist attacks and both are in the wrong - I've criticised the Israel's and Palestines for the present situation - every-one else is happy just to blame the palestines.

6) If you want to address the topic ok - we want to spread democracy in the middle east - Palestine has a free and fair election (according to all international advisors) - Hamsas wins. Accept it.

7) Missed oportunity? You criticise the present govt. and they vote in the only other choice they had. Exactly who were they to vote for?

8) I never said electing Hamas would serve the palestine people well so please don't put words in my mouth. We want democracy in the region, well we've got it. If the Palestines want to elect Hamas its up to them - not the US - to decide who will be in govt.

9) Yes negotiation is tough. As usual you only present 1 side to the situation so I'll state the other (even though I also agree with the problems presented by you regarding Israel) :-

a) How does any Palestine authority negotiate with an entity which has used military force to seize their terrority and refuses to give it up?

b) How can they negotiate with an entity who refuses to allow millions of refugees back into their homeland?

c) How can they negotiate the return of Jerusalem when Israel has said this is impossible?

Perhaps you can tell me how the above can be achieved?

The reality is that both sides want it all and neither will negotiate anything away. Thats why international bodies (UN, US or whatever) should just enforce the existing UN mandates, move Israel back to its proper borders and forcibly disarm the Palestine terrorist groups.

How did Israel get the land all this fighting is over.She was attacked and defended herself .The U N has been usless in most of the trouble in the mideast. Jerusalem should stay in Israel no dividing.

Binary_Digit · Jan 28, 2006

JOHNYJ said:
How did Israel get the land all this fighting is over.She was attacked and defended herself .

Why was she attacked? Because she was recently taken from the Palestinians.

Kandahar · Jan 28, 2006

Binary_Digit said:
Why was she attacked? Because she was recently taken from the Palestinians.

Who cares? That was nearly 60 years ago; the statute of limitations for legitimate territorial claims has certainly passed.

I love it when people actually sympathize with the terrorist Palestinians. Subconsciously it has nothing to do with sympathy to their plight, but with knee-jerk anti-Americanism. If the circumstances were exactly the same but the United States supported the Palestinian position, you guys would bitch about how unfair we were being toward Israel.

Bergslagstroll · Jan 28, 2006

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Kandahar said:
Terrorists and nazis killed lots of innocent people. There are almost no innocent people in Gaza. The entire strip is a terrorist camp.

And how can you now that there are no innocent people in Gaza? Because Hitler was also certain there was no innocent jews even if he of course was wrong.

Kandahar · Jan 28, 2006

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Bergslagstroll said:
Exactly that Hitler said about the USSR.

I guess that means anything Hitler ever said about one country can never be true of any other country in an entirely different set of circumstances with almost no similarities whatsoever, right?

Hitler invaded France too. Therefore that means we were wrong to invade Afghanistan, right?

This is idiotic. The Gaza Strip is not the USSR, and Israel is not Nazi Germany. That comparison doesn't even make any ******* sense, aside from the fact that you felt like comparing people you disagreed with to Hitler.

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