Hamas wins majority in parliamentary elections

[Gardener]

I'm a Jew with "Israel will always be worth it" in my signature. I'll let you figure it out.

Oh, THAT Israel.

I was worried you might be on a first name basis with Mr Shahak.

 

[Connecticutter]

Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

I am suprised that there is no thread about this yet.

What's your take on Hamas winning the Palestinian elections? What should our response be? What should Israel's response be? What does this mean for the future of the peace process?

I open the floor for opinions.

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

I am suprised that there is no thread about this yet.

What's your take on Hamas winning the Palestinian elections? What should our response be? What should Israel's response be? What does this mean for the future of the peace process?

I open the floor for opinions.

threads merged.

 

[RightinNYC]

Here's an angle!...

Has anyone thought that Hamas did NOT want to win the majority?...

Leaving them to be a minority would give them legitimacy within the borders but would also let them hide behing their veil of violence because any actions they do will not make the Palestinian government held responsible.

There is a difference between doing something on your own and doing something as a government official...

If a state cop was in his civies at a bar and punches someone, he is responsible for his actions...If he were to punch someone on duty in uniform, the STATE is responsible for his actions...At that moment, he is a representative of the state.

Same here...When Hamas wasn't in the majority, they took responsibility for suicide bombings...The government couldn't be blamed because they were not the government...

But now they ARE...

If a suicide bomb or other atrocity happens and either Hamas claims responsibility or Isreal finds out it was Hamas' doing, that WILL be considered an act of war...

Hamas will lose the "victim" role they so preciously play to the global community, and the nations that aid Palestine(US & Europe) will cease funding...

So Hamas winning the majority may not be what they originally wanted...Now they will be forced to either act like a legitimate government(which they never thought they were going to be) or face being exposed for the terrorists they are...

LAtimes among others agrees with you.

 

[RightinNYC]

Nice little side story:

When the new Palestinian Legislative Council meets for the first time, 11% of the members are likely to be absent from the proceedings.

Fourteen security prisoners in Israeli jails are believed to have been elected to the 132-seat parliament, while one inmate of a Palestinian prison was also successful

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605925529&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

hahahahaha. Wonder how THATS going to work...do they get diplomatic immunity now?

 

[RightinNYC]

And one last little tidbit of input...

Think about this scenario:

Now that Hamas is elected, they know they have to make some steps towards getting things done with Israel. Unfortunately for their traditional approach, a recent survey by Palestines most reliable polling org. showed that 60% of Palestine opposes continued attacks on the Gaza strip and 80% want the 10 month truce to continue. As a result of this and their newly gained power, they will be forced to find a new "third way." If this third way is finessed to be palatable to bothe Israel and Palestine, (ie. drop the whole destroy Israel thing, Israel pulls back further, stops attacks, US keeps funding), then confidence on both sides will surge.

Guess what just happened.

A place that was a cesspool of violence and bombing for 3000 years just saw advancements in peace. How? Through bombings? No, through the terrorists putting down their arms (to at least SOME degree) and actively participating in the democratic political process.

Now tell me THAT won't get wheels spinning in the heads of a billion or so Muslims who since the dawn of time have been told that ONLY totalitarianism is capable of bringing them peace and safety?

That's the second step in possibly the most important process any of us will live to see: the continued march of democracy throughout the world.

Now here's hoping.

 

[Binary_Digit]

I wonder if this will compel Islamic Jihad to join the democratic process too. I can't say I'm comfortable with another terrorist group becomming a legitimate political party, especially one that's even worse than Hamas, but it's still better than rogue suicide bombings every other day. Anything that moves people toward the diplomatic table can't be all bad.

 

[MSgt]

There probably isn't one evil dictator on earth who actually believes they are an evil dictator either...

Doesn't make it correct though....

No terrorist calls themselves a terrorist...They say "freedom fighter" or "resistance" or some other frilly term to make themselves more appealing...

Nomatter how Hamas describes themselves, they will always be a "spade"...

Very true and tragically ironic. The hard-core terrorists spawned by the breakdown of the Middle East quote the Qu'ran. They wear Muslim garments. They perform the daily rituals prescribed by the faith into which they were born. The terrorists may believe that they're good Muslims — self-awareness is not a widespread human trait — but their deeds are those of the pagans Mohammed condemned. The attack on 9/11 and so many others are not a political act. It was a religious act, but it wasn't Islamic. This is a perversion. The Koran forbids the murder of innocents (as well as the taking of hostages and the abuse of prisoners). Terrorist attacks are cult behavior from the dawn of civilization, employing modern tools. For all of their Muslim rantings, the terrorists of Al-Qaeda and its affiliates have returned to pre-Islamic practices, to behaviors that Moses, Christ and Mohammed uniformly rejected: They practice human sacrifice. We face a situation that is so perverse that it is as if tens of millions of frustrated Christians decided that Kali, the Hindu Goddess of death and destruction, embodies the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

How sad and twisted that these people use Islam to condemn "infidels" and other Muslims while destroying and blashpeming their own religion.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

I am suprised that there is no thread about this yet.

What's your take on Hamas winning the Palestinian elections? What should our response be? What should Israel's response be? What does this mean for the future of the peace process?

I open the floor for opinions.

The American response should be to cease all aid money going to Palestine. Israel's response should be to finish building the wall, set its own borders as it pleases, and bomb the **** out of anyone it feels like.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

The American response should be to cease all aid money going to Palestine. Israel's response should be to finish building the wall, set its own borders as it pleases, and bomb the **** out of anyone it feels like.

Including woman and children?

 

[AlbqOwl]

The vast majority of Moslems are peaceloving people who mind their own business and harm nobody. However, you'd have to look pretty far and wide across the planet to find active conflicts or where mass human atrocities are being committed in which extreme Islamo-facist radicals are not involved.

The number of such bad guys are finite, however, and I think the more the decent people of the Earth oppose and resist them, the fewer there will be. I am thus a supporter of the War on Terror based on the old saw that the only thing required for evil to prevail is that good men stand by and do nothing.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Including woman and children?

You know, in the case of most countries with Islamic terrorists I'm willing to draw a clear distinction between terrorists and civilians. I'm the first to agree that in most countries, most people do not support the actions of terrorists. Palestine, however, is the exception. The women support terrorism just as much as the men do, and the children are future terrorists almost without exception. There are almost NO "innocent bystanders" in the world's toilet known as Gaza.

So if it would somehow help protect Israeli civilians to do so, then I'm all for it. Israelis aren't going to walk into Palestinian restaurants with suicide bombs on their backs.

 

[MSgt]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

You know, in the case of most countries with Islamic terrorists I'm willing to draw a clear distinction between terrorists and civilians. I'm the first to agree that in most countries, most people do not support the actions of terrorists. Palestine, however, is the exception. The women support terrorism just as much as the men do, and the children are future terrorists almost without exception. There are almost NO "innocent bystanders" in the world's toilet known as Gaza.

So if it would somehow help protect Israeli civilians to do so, then I'm all for it. Israelis aren't going to walk into Palestinian restaurants with suicide bombs on their backs.

You are correct. In all of my studies and time facing these issues, "Palestine" is by far the worse place where Radical Islam is so wide sweeping a presence. These are people that are so miserable in their positions in life, so unwilling to do for themselves that they would rather remain mired in poverty and failure than to roll up their sleeves and accept responsibility for themselves. Their fuel to remain this way is Saudi and Iranian influence and global pity and sympathy. They are as near as hopeless a society can be on this earth.

Harsh words, but true.

 

[G-Man]

Israel engaged in terrorism? What sort of terrorism did you have in mind? That they kicked the rest of the Arab world's butt the last time the intention was to remove Israel from the face of the earth? Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights were the spoils of war taken in that conflict and held to increase Israel's security against a lot of neighbors who wanted all Jews to be dead.

Even now, the expanded area occupied by Israel wouldn't fill an average New Mexico county, and very few of anybody occupied it until the Jews moved in. Suddenly it was the most desirable piece of real estate in the Middle East.

It doesn't take much dedicated research to find hundreds of incidents in which terrorists have bombed, shot, blown up, or otherwise killed or maimed innocent Israeli men, women, and children. Children seem to be a particularly attractive target to the terrorists. You will find plenty of evidence that Israel has fought back and tightened security, perhaps appropriately, perhaps not, but you won't find any incidents of Israeli's going out to murder innocents just because you want them dead.

And the BBC piece posted reads like no other history of this area I've ever read. I sure wish he listed his sources. I bet they would be interesting.

What sort of terrorism? How about this one - the massacre at Sabra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Of course just because the Unitde Nations General Assembley described it as an act of Genocide I'm sure you can still argue the slaughter of (according to Israeli sources) 700-800 civilians including women and chldren is quite justified.

However, fortunately the Israeli citizens didn't agree with you and 300,000 of them took to the streets demanding answers. As a direct result of this Ariel Sharon - whom the Israeli commission said bore 'personal responsibility' - and later becam% Prime Minister - was dismissed as Defense Minister. Hardly the credentials of a man of peace.

And for your reference the author has provided plenty of sources.

As for desirable location...well Jerusalem has been known to be slightly important for most religions..I suggest a read of the bible for starters!

The Palestines are in the wrong and so are the Israelis - if the international community had the balls to re-instate the borders of 67 - move the Israeli forces out and forcibly remove the weapons from the terrorist organisations we would maybe see an improvement.

 

[Tashah]

Ever since my arrival at Debate Politics, I have repeatedly tried to impart upon all of you... the unbridled corruption of those who govern Palestine. In essence, Palestine is and always was... nothing more than a Mafioso state run by greedy criminals and muderous psychopaths. I have also tried my best to impart upon all of you... that it is nigh impossible to come to peaceful terms with creatures such as this.

To think that the Palestinians have now traded a devil they know for a devil they did not is simply disingenuous and untrue. They know exactly who the new devil is and the devil's bargain they have voted for. They've made their new political bed, and when you sleep with dogs you get fleas. They have freely made another terrible choice, and I don't want to hear them bitching and moaning when the consequences eventually come home to roost.

I can guarantee you this much. With Hamas in power and its founding charter of destroying Israel still intact, there is no one left in Palestine for Israel to officially negotiate with. No Israeli government will ever negotiate with an organization... that openly fosters and commits terrorism. Unofficially and silently, Egypt will almost certainly align itself with Israel in this regard... as it has serious concerns about the the propensity of Hamas to support the Muslim Brotherhood. Mubarak will not allow Palestine to become a sanctuary and launching pad for MB terrorism in Egypt.

Unless the unthinkable happens and Hamas quickly morphs into the Peace Corps, expect Benjamin Netanyahu to form the next Israeli government. For those of you unfamiliar with Mr. Netanyahu, he is an unabashed hawk who resides far to the Israeli political right. Expect no more unilateral concessions or withdrawals from Israel. Once again and so true to form, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

 

[robin]

If the election of these Hamas chaps means they are now bought into the negotiation process & get the chance to stay in 5 star hotels & travel, then maybe they'll change their ways, or am I kidding, or am I being naive... whatever LOL
Who knows.. fact is sometimes stranger than fiction.

 

[Connecticutter]

What sort of terrorism? How about this one - the massacre at Sabra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

I'm not convinved here - but I'm not going to check up on the facts because this took place in 1982!! It should have little to do with this discussion.

The vast majority of Moslems are peaceloving people who mind their own business and harm nobody.

How do you explain then the fact that a majority supported Hamas? The Palestinian voters are not stupid - they are well aware of the Hamas aims and the terrorist attacks that they have carried out.

I wonder if this will compel Islamic Jihad to join the democratic process too. I can't say I'm comfortable with another terrorist group becomming a legitimate political party, especially one that's even worse than Hamas, but it's still better than rogue suicide bombings every other day. Anything that moves people toward the diplomatic table can't be all bad.

The Palestinians and the organizations they form aren't going to go anywhere, so the bast we can hope for is that they join the political process and change their ways towards peace. This is how some good can come out of these elections.

 

[robin]

For those of you unfamiliar with Mr. Netanyahu, he is an unabashed hawk who resides far to the Israeli political right.

Sounds like he's just the man to complete the cycle of violence then. Someone who will contribute towards turning fears into reality & since politicians never miss opportunities, he must be rubbing his hands with glee at the Hamas victory. Things don't look good.

 

[AlbqOwl]

How do you explain then the fact that a majority supported Hamas? The Palestinian voters are not stupid - they are well aware of the Hamas aims and the terrorist attacks that they have carried out.

The Palestine voters are less than 1% of all the Muslims in the world. Those who are there are mostly militants or descended from militants who moved into the area purely for the purpose of opposing Israel. There was a tiny tiny population of so-called Palestinians in that area at the time a small niche was carved out for Israel there.

So you have 50 years of an Arafat whose sworn purpose from the beginning was the destruction of Israel. He was a snake sometimes wearing sheep's clothing for the benefit of the international community, but he was never pro-Israel or any friend of Israel. His party was so corrupt and had become so ineffective, that Hamas looked like saviors in comparison.

I don't believe for a minute that Hamas will be better or worse than Arafat's party, but I do think a legitimate government in place in Palestine will be a plus because it will be easier to persuade by Euopeans, the US, and the UN.

 

[Tashah]

I don't believe for a minute that Hamas will be better or worse than Arafat's party, but I do think a legitimate government in place in Palestine will be a plus because it will be easier to persuade by Euopeans, the US, and the UN.

Although Hamas was indeed elected by a majority Palestinian vote, this 'legitimacy' neither negates nor erases their US Department of State status as a Foreign Terrorist Organization....

U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Although Hamas was indeed elected by a majority Palestinian vote, this 'legitimacy' neither negates nor erases their US Department of State status as a Foreign Terrorist Organization....

U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations

Not only that but the idiotic Palestinians just voted in an orgnaization which has totally rejected the Road Map to Peace in its entirety including the proposed Palestinian state.

In effect the Palestinians just voted against their own statehood! What a bunch of fuc/king idiots, these people really need to catch a clue.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Although Hamas was indeed elected by a majority Palestinian vote, this 'legitimacy' neither negates nor erases their US Department of State status as a Foreign Terrorist Organization....

U.S.-Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations

What can in your view?

 

[MSgt]

Not only that but the idiotic Palestinians just voted in an orgnaization which has totally rejected the Road Map to Peace in its entirety including the proposed Palestinian state.

In effect the Palestinians just voted against their own statehood! What a bunch of fuc/king idiots, these people really need to catch a clue.

The recent events with Hamas is truley frustrating. The Middle East defies solution. History has taught us that once started, religious strife has a tendency to go on and on, to become permanent feuds. Attempts to bring about peace have failed again and again. Always the extremist elements invoking past injustices, imagined or real, will succeed in torpedoing the peace efforts and bringing about another bout of hostility. A functional compromise between Israelis and Palestinians was impossible when the majority of the fanatics were merely on one side, and now they may very well compose the decisive elements on both sides in the future. An Israeli born as these events unfold is likely to wade through his or her entire life in an ebb and flow of conflict. Meaning well, and behaving foolishly, we plunged into the Arab-Israeli conflict as an "honest broker," although neither side can accept the compromises required by such brokering, while our baggage as both Israel's primary supporter and the long-time backer of many of the most reprehensible Arab regimes is a debilitating handicap to mediation. Stability in the Middle East is critical to our futures, no matter if it seems impossible without a Carthaginian peace imposed by one side or the other. Compounding to the confusion, as always, is the earnest college student, not yet seasoned by reality, as he marches in protests ignorantly chanting, “Down with Israeli terrorism!” and “Free Palestine!”

People say that they can't coexist, because they are looking at it wrong. The Israelis and the Palestinians can coexist. They already do. But their coexistence is of a different, dynamic nature that belies the meaning we attach to the term. Their struggle fulfills both sides. The Palestinians will never be satisfied, no matter how much they might regain, and the siege mentality Israelis affect to deplore may be essential to the continued vigor of their state. For both factions, struggle and the self-justification it allows may be the most fulfilling condition. (Don't get me wrong. If for anything, I strongly support Israel's struggle to exist against overwhelming odds over the years, because they are an ally. Being an American ally has its benefits. It must.)

The repressive, borrowed-time Arab governments in the region really don’t want to see a successful, independent Palestinian state. The Palestinian struggle is a wonderful diversion for deprived Islamic populations elsewhere, but none of the Arab elites truthfully likes or trusts the Palestinians, who, if they achieved a viable, populist state of their own, would provide an unsettling example to the subjects of neighboring regimes. Arab rulers regard the Palestinians as too unpredictable, too obstreperous, too secular, too vigorous, and much too creative (resembling the Israelis, in fact). As it is, the rest of the Arab world is happy to fight to the last Palestinian, insisting the Palestinians maintain demands unacceptable to Israel. The struggle will go on for a long time to come. The best the United States can do at present is to inhibit the most excessive violations of human rights, while placing responsibility for the conflict on the shoulders of the participants, not on our own. We also must avoid absurd knee-jerk reactions, such as condemning legitimate efforts by Israel to strike guilty individuals, which is a far more humane and incisive policy than Palestinian suicide-bomber attacks on discos and restaurants.

By exciting false hopes of an ill-defined peace, we only inflame passions we cannot quench. Again, we will get into the habit of speaking loudly and laying our stick aside. Just watch and see. Hamas, like all extremists in all religions in history, will derail all peace efforts as we waste our breath and time. Israel has already refused to work with them and rightfully so. We would do better with fewer press releases and more behind-the-scenes firmness--when engagement is to our advantage. We must come to a realization - Hamas and their overwhelming Palestinian supporters do want peace, but only their peace. Their long time "moral" support in Iran is attempting to build the tools necessary to make nuclear weapons. The time may come soon when "brokering" is no longer the preferred method and we must choose a side an act.

 

[Connecticutter]

The Palestine voters are less than 1% of all the Muslims in the world. Those who are there are mostly militants or descended from militants who moved into the area purely for the purpose of opposing Israel. There was a tiny tiny population of so-called Palestinians in that area at the time a small niche was carved out for Israel there.

Point taken - you were talking about Muslims not Palestinians. I thought you meant "Palestinian Muslims."

 

[Kandahar]

Ever since my arrival at Debate Politics, I have repeatedly tried to impart upon all of you... the unbridled corruption of those who govern Palestine. In essence, Palestine is and always was... nothing more than a Mafioso state run by greedy criminals and muderous psychopaths. I have also tried my best to impart upon all of you... that it is nigh impossible to come to peaceful terms with creatures such as this.

To think that the Palestinians have now traded a devil they know for a devil they did not is simply disingenuous and untrue. They know exactly who the new devil is and the devil's bargain they have voted for. They've made their new political bed, and when you sleep with dogs you get fleas. They have freely made another terrible choice, and I don't want to hear them bitching and moaning when the consequences eventually come home to roost.

I can guarantee you this much. With Hamas in power and its founding charter of destroying Israel still intact, there is no one left in Palestine for Israel to officially negotiate with. No Israeli government will ever negotiate with an organization... that openly fosters and commits terrorism. Unofficially and silently, Egypt will almost certainly align itself with Israel in this regard... as it has serious concerns about the the propensity of Hamas to support the Muslim Brotherhood. Mubarak will not allow Palestine to become a sanctuary and launching pad for MB terrorism in Egypt.

:clap: :agree :clap:

Unless the unthinkable happens and Hamas quickly morphs into the Peace Corps, expect Benjamin Netanyahu to form the next Israeli government. For those of you unfamiliar with Mr. Netanyahu, he is an unabashed hawk who resides far to the Israeli political right. Expect no more unilateral concessions or withdrawals from Israel. Once again and so true to form, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

I don't know about this. Personally I think Olmert would be better for establishing peace than Netanyahu. The idea of unilateral concessions and withdrawal may not play well to an Israeli audience in light of Hamas' election, but the bottom line is that it has worked. Terrorist attacks are down dramatically since the Israelis stopped babysitting Gaza and started the fence.

It seems to me that Kadima's solution has worked beautifully where negotiations and occupation have both failed.