Hamas wins majority in parliamentary elections

[Bergslagstroll]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

I guess that means anything Hitler ever said about one country can never be true of any other country in an entirely different set of circumstances with almost no similarities whatsoever, right?

Hitler invaded France too. Therefore that means we were wrong to invade Afghanistan, right?


This is idiotic. The Gaza Strip is not the USSR, and Israel is not Nazi Germany. That comparison doesn't even make any ******* sense, aside from the fact that you felt like comparing people you disagreed with to Hitler.

I changed it to something better. But still USSR is a good example because USSR was considered to be and was a evil country much more then Gaza ever has been. But most people still think it was wrong assuming like Hitler it was ok to kill innocent people in the USSR. And no I only compare people who thinks it ok to kill innocent people with Hitler...

 

[Tashah]

1) Why shouldn't Hamas attemp to destablise (and now democratically overthrow) the Abbas administration?? You have already expressed the opinion that it was massively corrupt and considering the amount of time it had been in power without reaching a solution, the problem would appear to be beyond its abilities. With no change the status quo continues.

I beg to differ. The Abbas administration inherited a stinkhole from Arafat which required significant redress. Rome wasn't built in a day. In the opinion of the Israeli government, Abbas is sincere in his slow but steady efforts to reform Palestine and broker a lasting peace agreement with Israel. A positive and incremental Abbas reformation of Palestinian governance would have further opened the doors of international assistence such as administrative mentors, educators, and law enforcement advisors. In other words, a positive spiral could have been initiated internally and bolstered externally.

Link #1 • New York Times: Hamas Victory May Deepen Palestinian Financial Crisis

2) Explain how Hamas is corrupt please - sure their objectives are distressing but Islamic movements are not created for personal wealth/gain, unlike most political parties.

Lol... distressing? Couldn't think of a more benign descriptive?

Link #2 • US Department of State - Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTO's)

Link #3 • US Department of State - U.S. Welcomes European Union Designation of Hamas as Terrorists

3) Apologies for making an assumption - please tell us your opinion on how peace will be achieved.

With the election of Hamas... my opinion in this reagrd is now moot.

4) Yeah a UN Resolution created Israel - not to the borders that it has created for itself though (also didn't include Jerusalem) - the US doesn't help with this either because whilst it recognises Israel it refuses to state exactly what area Israel covers.

If Arab nations had not repeatedly invaded Israel, the UN demarcated Green Line of 1967 would still be the in-situ border today. They gambled, they lost.

5) I'm not playing the name game - I seem to be the only person who acknowledges both sides have committed terrorist attacks and both are in the wrong - I've criticised the Israel's and Palestines for the present situation - every-one else is happy just to blame the palestines.

Perhaps you once again missed what I posted. Scroll up and you will see that I acknowledged that both sides have engaged in terrorism.

6) If you want to address the topic ok - we want to spread democracy in the middle east - Palestine has a free and fair election (according to all international advisors) - Hamsas wins. Accept it.

I accept it. I hope the Palestinians are just as accepting of the consequences. Refer to Link #1 above.

7) Missed oportunity? You criticise the present govt. and they vote in the only other choice they had. Exactly who were they to vote for?

There existed no uplifting choices. However, the Palestinians have decided to embrace the greater of the two evils. Refer to Link #'s 2 & 3 above.

8) I never said electing Hamas would serve the palestine people well so please don't put words in my mouth. We want democracy in the region, well we've got it. If the Palestines want to elect Hamas its up to them - not the US - to decide who will be in govt.

Covered in Quote 7) above.

9) Yes negotiation is tough. As usual you only present 1 side to the situation so I'll state the other (even though I also agree with the problems presented by you regarding Israel)

I present the Israeli view of affairs... that is precisely why I joined DP.

a) How does any Palestine authority negotiate with an entity which has used military force to seize their terrority and refuses to give it up?

They lost their territory via agressive warfare. Israel will no longer cede strategic military depth without a comprehensive peace agreement and a complete cessation of all hostilities and terrorism.

b) How can they negotiate with an entity who refuses to allow millions of refugees back into their homeland?

Perhaps you don't understand the realities of time. The Palestine of 1946 no longer exists.

c) How can they negotiate the return of Jerusalem when Israel has said this is impossible?

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and is non-negotiable. When the Palestinians of Transjordan controled Jerusalem, Jewish access to Jewish holy sites was forbidden. This stricture will never happen again.

Perhaps you can tell me how the above can be achieved?

Now that Hamas governs Palestine, the problems are significantly exacerbated and probably now intractable unless Abbas can bypass the Hamas majority parliament.

The reality is that both sides want it all and neither will negotiate anything away. Thats why international bodies (UN, US or whatever) should just enforce the existing UN mandates, move Israel back to its proper borders and forcibly disarm the Palestine terrorist groups.

The reality is that Israel and Abbas had accepted the two-state solution. On this basic foundational agreeance, negotiations could have transpired to mediate and settle the remaing disputes diplomatically.

With the election victory of Hamas, both Palestine and Israel are effectively back to square one. Thus, unless and until Hamas reforms its charter and alters its objectives, Israel has no one left to negotiate with vis-a-vis Palestine.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Just some facts to justife my statements there I compared people statements with terrorists and nazis. That is because people say that there are almost no innocent in Gaza and that you can practicly kill and atack everyone, at the same time a mayority of the population there is under the age of 18.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html (not a left wing or islamic source) 0-14 years: 48.5% (male 342,186/female 325,899) in Gaza

I leave this thread hoping that there are very few americans that has this very unamerican and un humanitarian ideas...

 

[Gardener]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

And no I only compare people who thinks it ok to kill innocent people with Hitler...

Considering the fact that people in the Gaza Strip overwhelmingly support the killing of innocent people, your statement makes no sense.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

I changed it to something better. But still USSR is a good example because USSR was considered to be and was a evil country much more then Gaza ever has been. But most people still think it was wrong assuming like Hitler it was ok to kill innocent people in the USSR. And no I only compare people who thinks it ok to kill innocent people with Hitler...

Did the Russian people vote the Soviet communists into power? Did the Russian people teach their kids that martyrdom was the highest honor? Did the Russians teach their kids from cradle to grave that they should blow up German civilians? No.

What "innocent people" are you referring to? Maybe 1% of Gazans don't support or sympathize with terrorists.

 

[DivineComedy]

With the election of Hamas... my opinion in this reagrd is now moot.

Me too! {Font=Klingon}There can be no peace, as long as Hamas lives.{/Font}

 

[RightinNYC]

Now what is to happen if Iran, Iraq and Palestine join together to eliminate Israel?

....they would lose.

 

[MSgt]

Now what is to happen if Iran, Iraq and Palestine join together to eliminate Israel?

The same thing that happened when Muslims from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq invaded Israel the day after the UN blessed Israel in 1949 - they would lose. Jealousy, rage, and shame are the human emotions underneath their religious outbursts and tantrums to this very day.

The repressive, borrowed-time Arab governments in the region really don't want to see a successful, independent Palestinian state. The Palestinian struggle is a wonderful diversion for deprived Islamic populations elsewhere, but none of the Arab elites truthfully likes or trusts the Palestinians, who, if they achieved a viable, populist state of their own, would provide an unsettling example to the subjects of neighboring regimes. Arab rulers regard the Palestinians as too unpredictable, too obstreperous, too secular, too vigorous, and much too creative (resembling the Israelis, in fact). The current Iranian government and their string pulling Mullahs are, quite simply put, bigots. They are the very definition of the word bigot, racist, and religious persecutor. They have merely taken "Mein Kampf" and added the next volume. As it is, the rest of the Arab world is happy to fight to the last Palestinian, insisting the Palestinians maintain demands unacceptable to Israel. The struggle will go on for a long time to come. The best the United States can do at present is to inhibit the most excessive violations of human rights, while placing responsibility for the conflict on the shoulders of the participants, not on our own. We also must avoid absurd knee-jerk reactions, such as condemning legitimate efforts by Israel to strike guilty individuals, which is a far more humane and incisive policy than Palestinian suicide-bomber attacks on discos and restaurants.

The number one deadly and galvanizing strategic impulse in the world today is jealousy. And it's jealousy of the West in general, but specifically of the United States. Israel is one little country amongst an ocean of monsters and violent savages. Whether it be Egypt, Libya, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Jordan....Israel has been able to defeat anything and everything Muslim establishments have thrown at them. Israel has done it's best to build their society into a flourishing environment of freedom and modernization. They have a proffessional and highly trained military. The general Muslim sentiment is jealousy and envy. Any attempt to get rid of the "Zionists" state has failed. Add America into the mix as Israels backer....and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it....and they know it. (The biggest benefit of calling oneself an ally of the United States of America.) Meaning well, and behaving foolishly, we plunged into the Arab-Israeli conflict as an "honest broker," although neither side can accept the compromises required by such brokering, while our baggage as both Israel's primary supporter and the long-time backer of many of the most reprehensible Arab regimes is a debilitating handicap to mediation.

The truth of the matter is, that if Palestine and Israel were to ever find a peace, we would still have to face the Arab/Persian problem. They just wouldn't have the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as the diversion. Currently, Hamas seems to be doing everything that is being expected of them despite the senitments of some people in this forum to dream otherwise. We would be fools if we were to think that the Iranians and the Sauds aren't pulling strings and smiling right now.


PS...."G-Man".....you really need to understand the nature of the Arab's vision of Islam and their Radical element. If you took the time to understand these problems, I feel confident you would better understand the correct answers to some of your questions. Despite this, one only to has to ask himself, "If Palestinians stoped committing violent acts to the glee of the Persian and Arab elite...would there be any violence?" The answer to this question puts you on the correct road to understanding what we face today all over the world.

 

[G-Man]

They lost their territory via agressive warfare. Israel will no longer cede strategic military depth without a comprehensive peace agreement and a complete cessation of all hostilities and terrorism.


Perhaps you don't understand the realities of time. The Palestine of 1946 no longer exists.


Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and is non-negotiable. When the Palestinians of Transjordan controled Jerusalem, Jewish access to Jewish holy sites was forbidden. This stricture will never happen again.

With the election victory of Hamas, both Palestine and Israel are effectively back to square one. Thus, unless and until Hamas reforms its charter and alters its objectives, Israel has no one left to negotiate with vis-a-vis Palestine.

Looking at your response it seems thats Israel is not willing to negotiate PERIOD. If the only terms it will accept are :- complete control of the occupied territory, the continued expulsion of the Palestine refugees and complete control over Jerusalem I fail to say how ANY Palestine authority could agree to those terms.

Setting non-negotiable demands such as this means there can be no peace - maybe this is exactly what Israel wants after all.

As regards your comment about Hamas being corrupt I'm still waiting for an explanation.

 

[MSgt]

As regards your comment about Hamas being corrupt I'm still waiting for an explanation.

For a lazy and quick response to this simple challenge, I'll simply refer to wikipedia. Here is a very brief description of what Hamas is. I find id disturbing that you even need this instruction. It's like asking someone to prove to you that cherry Kool-Aid usually comes in a red color.

Hamas affirms a right to engage in armed struggle. Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a co-founder of Hamas, reportedly once stated that the movement's goal is "to remove Israel from the map."[1] Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel, and its attacks targeting Israeli civilians and other human rights abuses have been condemned by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.[2] During the second intifada, the Al-Aqsa Intifada, Hamas claimed responsibility for most of the suicide bombings that took place in Israel. Hamas has stated it would observe a respite since mid-2004 but violated it several times with attacks on the Israeli southern town of Beerseaba on Aug 2004 (15 dead, 125 wounded) and Aug 2005 (7 wounded).

Hamas is well funded and known to make generous payments to the families of suicide bombers.

Founded in 1987, Hamas started as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.

According to the Washington Institute, Hamas views the Arab-Israeli conflict as "a religious struggle between Islam and Judaism that can only be resolved by the destruction of the State of Israel." [9] Hamas uses both political activities and violence to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority. Israeli military operations during the Al Aqsa Intifada in 2002 put pressure on Hamas in the West Bank following several bombings in Israel for which Hamas claimed responsibility.

The Hamas Covenant, written in 1988, states that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of God over every inch of Palestine," i.e. to eliminate the State of Israel (and any secular Palestinian state which may be established), and to replace it with an Islamic Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


I would say that Israel has every reason in the world to not negotiate with these people period. It is common knowledge to all who have studied the Middle East what roles every group and faction have taken. This is a terrorist group and they are not interested in a peace. Even if they owned every square inch of land, they wouild commence to oppress their people. Terrorists are never satisfied with their conquests. The need to control and rule is too great. You lack understanding of the nature of terrorists, Islam, Radicals, and the Middle East social issues. When this is the case, the individual reaction is always to blame Israel. It's easier.

 

[AlbqOwl]

I think GySgt is spot on that the Arab nations in no way want a peaceful, prosperous Palestine. If they did they could easily have carved out a quite larger state out of their own territories and wouldn't miss a single acre. And they have certainly sufficient resources to have fed, clothed, and provided medical care to the Palestinians. Why don't they? Because they want to be able to accuse Israel of mistreating the Palestinians because that always stirs up the liberal world opinion almost all of which is in sympathy with the Palestinians. And they demand that it not be they but the tiny, tiny State of Israel that cedes the land for a Palestinian homeland.

And since they well know that Israel can't and won't do that, they can keep the conflict and controversies going ad finitum and hope that International Leftists will prevail in shutting down Israel in favor of the Palestinians. Once they destroy Israel, they won't gives a rat's behind about a Palestinian state.

 

[Connecticutter]

I also think you miss my point. I'm demonstrating that Israel engaged in acts of terrorism to expand its territory - this is exactly what Hamas and other such palestine militant groups are doing now. Both groups have deliberately murdered civilians trying to force the other from the disputed territories.

The fact it took place in 1982 is irrelevant - acts such as this have greatly contributed to the present situation. Also I believe there is a major criminal trial taking place in the Middle East at the moment, concerning the murder of civilians some 20 years ago.

No, I think that you are missing the point. Terrorism should not be tolorated. Israel should be allowed to build this wall and keep out the Palestinians to prevent further terrorist attacks against their country. They must also be allowed to use their military to defned themselves against terrorist attacks, just like the United States.

If there are Israelis guilty of war crimes, put 'em on trial - but don't tell me that Israel has no right to defend itself. I don't care if the wall takes a few square miles of land here and there. The Palestinians could not put up a rational negotiation, so they can't pick and choose what they get.

Until we recognize both sides are seriously in the wrong and take action against both a final solution will not be found. Israel won't give up the West Bank and Jerusalem, Hamas won't give up the fight until they have these places back and all the rest of Palestine. I suggest the status quo will continue for quite some time yet.

Well, that's why I think that Israel should stop military incursions and complete this separation barrier. Then Hamas might still be upset, but there won't be a whole lot they can do about it.

What do you mean when you say that you want us to take action against both? What sort of action do you have in mind?

 

[Tashah]

Looking at your response it seems thats Israel is not willing to negotiate PERIOD. If the only terms it will accept are :- complete control of the occupied territory, the continued expulsion of the Palestine refugees and complete control over Jerusalem I fail to say how ANY Palestine authority could agree to those terms.

Inexplicably, you seem to have no intellectual grasp of recent events. Israel unilaterally withdrew all military forces and settlements from Gaza without any negotiation. It was a stunning peace gesture that has not been reciprocated. To my knowledge (and I live in Israel) no inhabitant Palestinians have been expelled from Israel or the territories in quite a long time.

Jerusalem is historically a Jewish city. It was temporarily lost to invading jihad Muslim armies and occupiers, but reclaimed in 1967 after numerous invading Arab armies were soundly defeated by Israeli forces. The City of David historically has been, and will remain, the capital of Israel.

As regards your comment about Hamas being corrupt I'm still waiting for an explanation.

It is patently obvious that your agenda in this thread is not to acquire formulate knowledge, but rather to bash Israel at any and every opportunity. If you actually need a primer on the excesses of the Hamas organization, you have no business posting in a political forum that encompasses international affairs. Stop being a lazy leftist and educate yourself a bit... simply type Hamas in the form-field of the Google search engine or click on the Wikipedia link above. Your distinct lack of a comprehensive knowledge-base is your problemo G-man, not mine. Do your own homework.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Did the Russian people vote the Soviet communists into power? Did the Russian people teach their kids that martyrdom was the highest honor? Did the Russians teach their kids from cradle to grave that they should blow up German civilians? No.

What "innocent people" are you referring to? Maybe 1% of Gazans don't support or sympathize with terrorists.

For starter the 48,5 % of the population that are between the age 0-14 years old.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html

Personally I can see how any sane people can considering children to be terrorists or supporters of terrorist.

 

[Tashah]

Re: Hamas Wins Palestinian Elections

Personally I can see how any sane people can considering children to be terrorists or supporters of terrorist.

I will assume that you intended to write can't.

Children? What is being stated is that the Palestinian electorate has voted to install a terrorist organization (Hamas) as its official governmental representative. The propogandic notion that the Palestinian people do not willingly support terrorist organizations is now a demonstrable falsehood. Hamas is known to be... and has been declared a terrorist organization by Israel, the United States, the European Union, Canada, Australia, and the United Nations. Despite its status as an outlaw terrorist organization, Hamas continues to receive substantial financial aid and material support from Iran and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

Inexplicably, you seem to have no intellectual grasp of recent events. Israel unilaterally withdrew all military forces and settlements from Gaza without any negotiation

Yes but Israel is still under obligation to withdraw from the west bank in accordance with UN/International law, when does Israel propose to do this?

I think this is a victory for palestine and the palestinian people, let's hope they can be fairrly represented, and maybe we will see moves towards peace in that area.

Let's watch Bush and Blair squirm as they try and find justification for removing this Democratically elected "Terrorist Group".

How long before Al-Quada is labelled freedom fighters and can stand for Democratic election in Iraq?

 

[Gardener]

As regards your comment about Hamas being corrupt I'm still waiting for an explanation.

I will answer you if nobody else will, and will agree with you that Hamas is hardly corrupt at all. They have not really corrupted to any great degree certain portions of the Nazi philosophy the Muslim Brotherhood inhereted through their collaboration with them 70 years ago , other than through the admixture of the Naziism with Islam. They have been quite steadfast in their determination to carry out the final solution.

The better question is why you would seize upon the word "corrupt" as the semantic centerpiece for your argumentation? Is this an attempt to distract from the real issue through the setting up of some sort of pointless dialectic whereby you could claim they are not corrupt according to the most rigorous definition of the word, and once determined to be free of such, make the jump in logic towards some other deterministic? I/e -- they are not corrupt, therefore..........

The question shouldn't be whether or not they are corrupt, but what they represent. If somebody's goal were to exterminate all the G-Men of the world while never wavering from this goal and never feathering their own nest in the process, I seriously doubt that you would be too worried about their lack of corruption or use this lack of corruption towards their defense.

 

[Tashah]

Yes but Israel is still under obligation to withdraw from the west bank in accordance with UN/International law, when does Israel propose to do this?

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with international law, but the status of land siezed during warfare is subject to provisions agreed upon in an official peace agreement between the parties involved. No overarching peace agreement has been negotiated since the Arab invasion of 1967... ergo no return of land currently under Israeli administration. Whenever the Abbas PA or Hamas wish to legitimately and diplomatically negotiate peace terms, they know the number.

I think this is a victory for palestine and the palestinian people, let's hope they can be fairrly represented, and maybe we will see moves towards peace in that area.

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet the kibbutz on it.

Let's watch Bush and Blair squirm as they try and find justification for removing this Democratically elected "Terrorist Group".

To my knowledge, neither Bush nor Blair has suggested this. Can you point me to any relevant source that says otherwise? A link would work fine.

How long before Al-Quada is labelled freedom fighters and can stand for Democratic election in Iraq?

Wouldn't that development be up to the Iraqi's? Are you always this negative and pessimistic Micky or are you just having a bad-hair day?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Wouldn't that development be up to the Iraqi's? Are you always this negative and pessimistic Micky or are you just having a bad-hair day?

:lol: Mickey seems to have a lot of company these days if you believe what you read in the papers.

It never ceases to amaze me how some seem to believe those who don't attack or destroy others without provocation, who rebuild their defeated enemies, and who have demonstrated that they promote freedom and democracy are so often portrayed as the bad guys by the radical Left, while terrorists seem to be seen as 'freedom fighters' and noble warriors justified in defending their homelands (even though they don't have any).

I don't understand why people being free to determine their own destiny, being unafraid of being bombed on their busses and in their school, places of worship, and market places, and who join other free peoples in the world in cooperative and beneficial trade is not seen as a worthy goal. The negative nabobs seem to find evil in all that is intended to be good, and justification for all that is evil.

I wonder what it feels like to look at your country and world with that kind of perspective, but I really don't want to know.

 

[Gardener]

It never ceases to amaze me how some seem to believe those who don't attack or destroy others without provocation, who rebuild their defeated enemies, and who have demonstrated that they promote freedom and democracy are so often portrayed as the bad guys by the radical Left, while terrorists seem to be seen as 'freedom fighters' and noble warriors justified in defending their homelands (even though they don't have any).

I don't understand why people being free to determine their own destiny, being unafraid of being bombed on their busses and in their school, places of worship, and market places, and who join other free peoples in the world in cooperative and beneficial trade is not seen as a worthy goal. The negative nabobs seem to find evil in all that is intended to be good, and justification for all that is evil.

I wonder what it feels like to look at your country and world with that kind of perspective, but I really don't want to know.

Thanks for using the term "radical". I always appreciate it when people put a fine enough point on their comment so as to avoid the "you liberals" type harrangue.

I was at a board recently made up primarily of folks on the left with a few libertarians here and there. On this board there was a small group of moderate democrats who had always supported populist causes, voted for Kennedy in the old days, but weren't as radical as some oft he others. Many of them were former military folks, and were nice, friendly people. In fact, they had created a little subsection where the only rule was "no fighting", and was just a place to kick back and make friends.

Well, also on this site were two posters , who just happen to be Cindy Sheehan's lawyers, and who began a relentless campaign to demonize this small group of posters. They were attacked for having been in the military and they were attacked for not hating Israel enough, and they were attacked for not being real democrats and they were attacked because they were friendly and the attacks went on and on and on. Well, pretty soon a good portion of the web site took up the chant, and after several weeks of this, a new website suddenly sprung into being made up of the attackers. Turns out that the lawyers were intentionally baiting people and persecuting this small group of posters in order to get "activists" all riled up so as to go to this new web site. Nice work there, huh?

I supose I should get to the point I was going to make and that is this: It is a really easy matter to get people to hate. All you have to do is say "look, these people are your enemy and lots and lots of people will follow you without ever so much as asking why. All they need to know is that they are supposed to hate a certain group of people and so hate they will, this despite the actual relative actions involved. In the case of this website, all it took was the persistance of two people whipping others into a fenzy, and as far as the Palestinians, their propaganda machine has been on full overdrive for 50 years. The Arabs were never able to erradicate the Jews militarily, so they turned their attention to the one arena in which their vast numerical superiority was a tremdous advantage. In either case, though, the cement that bonded people together in a common cause was hate.

The extreme left has picked up so much of the Islamist rhetorec by now that it has become blatantly antisemitic. How many stories does one need to hear about shadowy cabals of jews secretly controlling the world, all coming from people with the same political views without wondering about the source? The source should be obvious, but to far too many people it isn't.

 

[G-Man]

For a lazy and quick response to this simple challenge, I'll simply refer to wikipedia. Here is a very brief description of what Hamas is. I find id disturbing that you even need this instruction. It's like asking someone to prove to you that cherry Kool-Aid usually comes in a red color.

Hamas affirms a right to engage in armed struggle. Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a co-founder of Hamas, reportedly once stated that the movement's goal is "to remove Israel from the map."[1] Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel, and its attacks targeting Israeli civilians and other human rights abuses have been condemned by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.[2] During the second intifada, the Al-Aqsa Intifada, Hamas claimed responsibility for most of the suicide bombings that took place in Israel. Hamas has stated it would observe a respite since mid-2004 but violated it several times with attacks on the Israeli southern town of Beerseaba on Aug 2004 (15 dead, 125 wounded) and Aug 2005 (7 wounded).

Hamas is well funded and known to make generous payments to the families of suicide bombers.

Founded in 1987, Hamas started as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.

According to the Washington Institute, Hamas views the Arab-Israeli conflict as "a religious struggle between Islam and Judaism that can only be resolved by the destruction of the State of Israel." [9] Hamas uses both political activities and violence to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority. Israeli military operations during the Al Aqsa Intifada in 2002 put pressure on Hamas in the West Bank following several bombings in Israel for which Hamas claimed responsibility.

The Hamas Covenant, written in 1988, states that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of God over every inch of Palestine," i.e. to eliminate the State of Israel (and any secular Palestinian state which may be established), and to replace it with an Islamic Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


I would say that Israel has every reason in the world to not negotiate with these people period. It is common knowledge to all who have studied the Middle East what roles every group and faction have taken. This is a terrorist group and they are not interested in a peace. Even if they owned every square inch of land, they wouild commence to oppress their people. Terrorists are never satisfied with their conquests. The need to control and rule is too great. You lack understanding of the nature of terrorists, Islam, Radicals, and the Middle East social issues. When this is the case, the individual reaction is always to blame Israel. It's easier.

We all know what Hamas is about - but you still haven't explained how they are corrupt.

Maybe you just didn't read the entire thread Gysgt. I was responding to an assertion that Hamas was as corrupt as the Fatah govt. I was stating that Fatah lost votes at the election because of their corruptness - votes which went over to Hamas. I've already stated my distaste for Hamas tactics so to expalin what they are about is pointless.

 

[G-Man]

No, I think that you are missing the point. Terrorism should not be tolorated. Israel should be allowed to build this wall and keep out the Palestinians to prevent further terrorist attacks against their country. They must also be allowed to use their military to defned themselves against terrorist attacks, just like the United States.

What do you mean when you say that you want us to take action against both? What sort of action do you have in mind?

Quite right Connecticutter, terrorism should not be tolerated. Its just a shame the international community did not step right in at the beginning of this mess and sort it out. Israel was 'allowed' to expand beyond the borders agreed by international law and it was 'allowed' to force millions of refugees out of their homeland never to return. These terrorist acts should have been confronted right away and then maybe we wouldn't have the mess we do.

Re: the action I have in mind?? I've already stated I believe the best course of action is to re-instate the internationally acknowledged borders, move the Israeli military out and disarm the militants (by force if necessary). Hamas and other such groups gain support from the suffering of the Palestine people. If you correct the injustices, the majority of the population will not support Hamas and their influence (including militant actions) will end.

It is clear neither side will voluntarily agree to give land to the other. International bodies will have to make a ruling on this matter.

 

[G-Man]

Inexplicably, you seem to have no intellectual grasp of recent events. Israel unilaterally withdrew all military forces and settlements from Gaza without any negotiation. It was a stunning peace gesture that has not been reciprocated. To my knowledge (and I live in Israel) no inhabitant Palestinians have been expelled from Israel or the territories in quite a long time.

Jerusalem is historically a Jewish city. It was temporarily lost to invading jihad Muslim armies and occupiers, but reclaimed in 1967 after numerous invading Arab armies were soundly defeated by Israeli forces. The City of David historically has been, and will remain, the capital of Israel.

It is patently obvious that your agenda in this thread is not to acquire formulate knowledge, but rather to bash Israel at any and every opportunity. If you actually need a primer on the excesses of the Hamas organization, you have no business posting in a political forum that encompasses international affairs. Stop being a lazy leftist and educate yourself a bit... simply type Hamas in the form-field of the Google search engine or click on the Wikipedia link above. Your distinct lack of a comprehensive knowledge-base is your problemo G-man, not mine. Do your own homework.

1) Yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza, but only to continue its stranglehold over the West Bank and Jerusalem. As for a stunning peace gesture - well they did take the land by force forty years ago so perhaps its about time they gave it back.

2) I doubt any Palestines have been expelled from Israel lately - the vast majority of them were made refugees several decades ago.

3) So the Palestines can't use the internationally agreed borders of 1967 to state their case because the situation has changed (according to you) but the Israelis can base their claim to the land using references to biblical times?
Sounds a bit hypocritical.

4) I don't need a lesson on Hamas - what it is and what it does is well know.

5) My agenda on this thread is to show that BOTH sides have committed terrorist attacks and neither will give ground to the other voluntarily. Thats why I believe the international community needs to step in and sort it out.

N.B Whilst you document various terrorist attacks by Palestine groups you have made no response to the terrorist attacks (particularly the Sabra massacre) I have documented by Israel. I would be interested if you condone these terrorist attacks or not because so far you have just dodged the topic.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Thanks for using the term "radical". I always appreciate it when people put a fine enough point on their comment so as to avoid the "you liberals" type harrangue.

I was at a board recently made up primarily of folks on the left with a few libertarians here and there. On this board there was a small group of moderate democrats who had always supported populist causes, voted for Kennedy in the old days, but weren't as radical as some oft he others. Many of them were former military folks, and were nice, friendly people. In fact, they had created a little subsection where the only rule was "no fighting", and was just a place to kick back and make friends.

Well, also on this site were two posters , who just happen to be Cindy Sheehan's lawyers, and who began a relentless campaign to demonize this small group of posters. They were attacked for having been in the military and they were attacked for not hating Israel enough, and they were attacked for not being real democrats and they were attacked because they were friendly and the attacks went on and on and on. Well, pretty soon a good portion of the web site took up the chant, and after several weeks of this, a new website suddenly sprung into being made up of the attackers. Turns out that the lawyers were intentionally baiting people and persecuting this small group of posters in order to get "activists" all riled up so as to go to this new web site. Nice work there, huh?

I supose I should get to the point I was going to make and that is this: It is a really easy matter to get people to hate. All you have to do is say "look, these people are your enemy and lots and lots of people will follow you without ever so much as asking why. All they need to know is that they are supposed to hate a certain group of people and so hate they will, this despite the actual relative actions involved. In the case of this website, all it took was the persistance of two people whipping others into a fenzy, and as far as the Palestinians, their propaganda machine has been on full overdrive for 50 years. The Arabs were never able to erradicate the Jews militarily, so they turned their attention to the one arena in which their vast numerical superiority was a tremdous advantage. In either case, though, the cement that bonded people together in a common cause was hate.

The extreme left has picked up so much of the Islamist rhetorec by now that it has become blatantly antisemitic. How many stories does one need to hear about shadowy cabals of jews secretly controlling the world, all coming from people with the same political views without wondering about the source? The source should be obvious, but to far too many people it isn't.

Good post. And, thank you for recognizing that my criticism of the radical Left is directed at the deluded, brainwashed, and idiots who cannot articulate a core belief of their own, believe the radical propaganda and misinformation, and are incapable of seeing any other point of view as anything but evil. In the blogosphere, these are the trolls who go from board to board with their screeds and idiotic conspiracy theories or disinformation couched in intellectual sounding phrases. The scary thing is that I believe a lot of these actually believe the stuff they utter and write.

(Disclaiimer: I acknowledge that there are some right wing idiots who are just as bad, but they get no encouragement or support from thinking right wingers so their numbers are considerably less I think.)

I think a large majority of Democrats and other left-of-center groups should not be identified with the trolls and screeders as they do try to sort out bad, better, and best and a lot of them do. Among my friends and relatives are several Democrats or other non-Republicans who are capable of knowing a good idea or policy when they see one regardless of who it was that offered it.

Unfortunately, too many people don't do the hard work to sort it all out though, and the only information they get is mostly disinformation. And so it perpetuates itself.

All we can do is to keep trying to get the accurate information out there and hope it will offset a mountain of lies, distortions, errancy, and malicious propaganda.

 

[Tashah]

1) Yes, Israel withdrew from Gaza, but only to continue its stranglehold over the West Bank and Jerusalem. As for a stunning peace gesture - well they did take the land by force forty years ago so perhaps its about time they gave it back.

So... Israel had both eggs completely clenched but decided to let one go so it could clutch the other with both hands. Brilliant strategy! Can't argue with that rationale. Israel did indeed take the land forty years ago because when you invade someone and lose big time... a price is going to be extracted.

2) I doubt any Palestines have been expelled from Israel lately - the vast majority of them were made refugees several decades ago.

Why did you state then that Palestinians continue to be expelled in your previous post? You're basically tripping over your own propoganda. By the way, about 13% of Israel's citizens are Muslim and none are rushing pell-mell to leave. Strange isn't it G-Man?

3) So the Palestines can't use the internationally agreed borders of 1967 to state their case because the situation has changed (according to you) but the Israelis can base their claim to the land using references to biblical times? Sounds a bit hypocritical.

The situation changed, but only because of Palestinian miscalculations. The Palestinians can state their case anytime, but they always fail to show up and when they do show up... they decide it's either the whole pie or nothing. More stupid miscalculations. If anything smacks of hypocrisy, it is the Palestinian wont to demand concessions and then walk away when they are offered. ::insert Camp David and Oslo here::

4) I don't need a lesson on Hamas - what it is and what it does is well know.

Then why did you demand proof of Hamas corruption? Scroll up.

5)My agenda on this thread is to show that BOTH sides have committed terrorist attacks and neither will give ground to the other voluntarily. Thats why I believe the international community needs to step in and sort it out.

Israel did give ground (Gaza) voluntarily. How have the Palestinians reciprocated? ::insert silence here::

N.B Whilst you document various terrorist attacks by Palestine groups you have made no response to the terrorist attacks (particularly the Sabra massacre) I have documented by Israel. I would be interested if you condone these terrorist attacks or not because so far you have just dodged the topic.

Are you reading impaired? I stated quite explicitly in a previous post that both sides have engaged in terrorism. Must I further embarrass you and dredge up the pertinent url/citation?

It seems to me that you are the one dodging the thread topic...Hamas wins majority in parliamentary elections. If you can, address this topic in a contemporary and relational manner... what the Hamas victory means for Palestine, Abbas, Fatah, Israel, Israeli elections, humanitarian aid, TWoT, etc. etc. etc. ::insert choking sound here::