Flags...not just a piece of colored cloth

[1751Texan]

The desecration of any symbol is done to illicit a response in those that cherish what the symbol stands for.

Desecrating the US Flag in no way harms the Republic. The Republic is not frail and brittle.

A Republic that can not weather a flag-burning is not much of a Republic.

 

[Tigerace117]

America has always loved freedom....unless your black, or a woman, or gay, or hispanic, or asian, or atheist, or a native american, or muslim, or pretty much anyone whos not a rich white man.... but yeah freedom :roll:

Civil War: 300,000 Union casualties alone freeing African Americans from slavery. Later on numerous welfare state programs created with them and other minorities specifically in mind.

Women: Gained to the right to vote a long time ago, and from the 1950s on their role has been changing in ways never foreseen by previous generations of humanity.

Gay: Unlike in certain countries, it's not illegal to be gay, and you won't be executed. Not to mention the fact that LGBT people are steadily gaining more and more rights, which would have made someone laugh in your face twenty years ago.

Asian: Took in all those boat people after the fall of Saigon. The big anti immigrant feeling on the West Coast was always more localized instead of nationwide.


Atheist: The fact that a very prominently officially atheist state was our main opposition in the Cold War more or less explains that.

Native Americans: Ignoring the facts that they were happily warring it up with each other well before any Europeans showed up....it was a nasty conflict, and things happen in wars. There were massacres on both sides.

Muslims: backlash from 9/11---understandable, if not what I'd encourage or recommend

 

[Henrin]

So Henrin... do you believe that there should be a law against the burning of the US flag?

No, I can't think of a good reason for it.

 

[Jetboogieman]

It's kind of sad the inevitible direction this thread will take. Nice OP though.

Feeling victimized by any negative comments about the US whatsoever?

Can't help but notice you said this after I posted and I'm the only one who really said much.

You gotta understand one thing X Factor, criticism isn't hatred and for my countries and yours, neither of our **** don't stink.

You gonna get upset about something I said without quoting me, either engage or don't bother.

 

[justabubba]

Thrilla...Your post reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw in South Dakota

" Young enough to kick your ass, and old enough to pay the legal bills."

I would check my wallet first, and then pound their stupid ass in the dirt where it came from.

your intolerance of those who have beliefs different tham your own dishonors what that flag stands for more than the burner who also defiles it

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

your intolerance of those who have beliefs different tham your own dishonors what that flag stands for more than the burner who also defiles it

or...now think on this good, now...or maybe I am just a human being who is more in touch with their self and their emotions.

Anger is very human. To deny that on some internet forum and act all superior is just stupid. We are still cavemen, biologically.

It may not be flag burning for you, but I can bet the farm YOU, like the rest of us, have your "triggers", and once pulled you can and will " go medieval on someone".

Maybe some perv with his phone taking an upskirt pic of your daughter

Maybe some pushy loudmouthed jerk in front of you at the checkout line

Who knows, but I DO KNOW, all of us have them.

Keep your "holier than me" attitude for church.

In front of a crowd, I can goad you into attacking me physically in less than 15 minutes. Don't deny your biology, and act all high and mighty. You are neither.

I KNOW if some crosses that line with me, then I AM, CAN, and WILL knock their dick in the dirt. And sleep just fine that night.

CONVERSELY, you will NEVER see me react to any drunk in any bar, no matter what they say or try. Too many years of Shore Patrol let me know how to deal with loud mouthed drunks. They are nothing.

Seeing the US flag being burned is my trigger, and in 15 minutes, I can find yours. We ALL have them.

 

[Texmex]

In front of a crowd, I can goad you into attacking me physically in less than 15 minutes.

No you couldn't, I am too old to be goaded; however, I am not too old to walk away and leave you talking to the wind. It wouldn't be difficult to file a complaint at both the store and the police department. You might be the one who has bitten off more than he can chew! :lamo

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

I wonder how opinions about the flag fall when you factor in military service or not. Since less then 1% serve, that hits most people. All those people bitching about the flag, and wanting to stand on it and burn it, all the while drinking their chai lattes from Starbucks, while social justice warrioring on Facebook with their Iphones having never actually served the country in any meaningful fashion is the height of hubris.

You hit that nail square on the head. They have never met a group of people that want to take away their lattes and their freedom so they have no clue as to how valuable it is, because they did not have to pay for it. It was always there and given to them. That is why they have no clue how profaning the symbol of that freedom and our nation bothers other people who DID pay for it. I refer back to that flag over the US Post Office at Khe Sahn.

If I was on some isolated island and the people there held some odd colored rock as a thing of honor and respect, and a symbol of their people, how do you think they would react if I walked up and crapped on it?

I can guarantee you they would NOT sit down and discuss it rationally. Pieces of me would be shark bait very soon.

RESPECT is a foreign trait in some, and completely non-existent in others.

The posts of some on this thread proves that easily. Some people have NO RESPECT for anything, and only want to stir up trouble for its own sake.

I have no problem paying the fine for kicking their dumb asses.

If they do not have any respect for what I hold dear, why the hell should I show any restraint in showing my displeasure at their actions.

Cause & effect....action and reaction. The laws of physics still work.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

No you couldn't, I am too old to be goaded; however, I am not too old to walk away and leave you talking to the wind. It wouldn't be difficult to file a complaint at both the store and the police department. You might be the one who has bitten off more than he can chew! :lamo

That post was not even addressed to you.

but matters not, you can have your trigger pulled too.

You reacted aggressively at what happened with just one post directed to someone else.

YOU had to take the time to comment about how superior a person you are over an internet comment not even addressed to you.

Yes, your trigger was not even lightly squeezed and you responded.

I also noticed most that are easy to poke LOVE to use the over-the-top laughing emoticons. That betrays your inner emotions wanting to jump to the surface. You use the over-the-top laughing to hide your just under the surface RAGE. They do it all the time all over the internet.

They are also always looking over their shoulder for support from " The Crowd". That invisible audience you always have to proven your superiority to.

You fit the stereotype perfectly.

Your psychoanalysis bill is in the mail.

I call what you did, "chicken pecking". It happens all the time on the internet.

In a chicken coop, if one chicken is sick or dying, the other chickens will walk past and "peck" a shot at the chicken getting attacked so they can be in the crowd.

Your post was a classic example of "chicken pecking", and your behavior is completely predictable.

(yawn)

 

[mike2810]

your intolerance of those who have beliefs different tham your own dishonors what that flag stands for more than the burner who also defiles it

Nice generic statement. You realize it goes both ways. The intolerance of the "burner' to people who disagree with them by knowing burning the flag will not set well with some, also dishonors the flag.

Bottom line you cannot please everyone.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The flag represents a nation and it's people. Trashing a flag during a protest is the ultimate form of disrespect to a nation, and people that it represents. Trashing a flag is like saying screw you to every american, and every Soldier, Marine, Sailor, and Airman who believed enough in this country to cash in their lives.

It might be free speech, but it will cost you if you do it in front of the wrong people..........regardless if violence is right or wrong

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

The flag represents a nation and it's people. Trashing a flag during a protest is the ultimate form of disrespect to a nation, and people that it represents. Trashing a flag is like saying screw you to every american, and every Soldier, Marine, Sailor, and Airman who believed enough in this country to cash in their lives.

It might be free speech, but it will cost you if you do it in front of the wrong people..........regardless if violence is right or wrong

Yup...it is pure physics.

You poke our buttons, then you get yours poked.

Carry a sign with some slogan instead,... chances are we might even agree with you and make one of our own and join you.

but...burn OUR flag, and you will get a completely emotional and unrehearsed REACTION, and it WILL be physical, and it WILL be not to your liking.

Legalities have nothing to do with it.

There is also a good chance, the cops will let us finish with you first, before we are arrested.

Then...what if the judge lost his dad or brother at Khe Sahn?

You flag burners need to contemplate things like this before you poke the tiger.

I could plead temporary insanity, and I would be correct. INNOCENT by reason of temporary insanity, and meanwhile that flag burner has two broken collar bones, a fractured eye socket, and cracked ribs.

THINK before you poke the tiger.

A lot of us veterans are on the edge anyway. Do you REALLY what to push our buttons?

THINK before you poke the tiger.

 

[Jetboogieman]

The flag represents a nation and it's people. Trashing a flag during a protest is the ultimate form of disrespect to a nation, and people that it represents. Trashing a flag is like saying screw you to every american, and every Soldier, Marine, Sailor, and Airman who believed enough in this country to cash in their lives.

It might be free speech, but it will cost you if you do it in front of the wrong people..........regardless if violence is right or wrong

Look, I do have to ask this, but there seems to be this ownership thing, when it comes to the flag, why is do you seem to exclusively tie it to the Military.

For me the flag belongs to all.

I know you guys take it very seriously... But your explicit calls for violence against those who practice is aren't particularly healthy in my book.

The flag doesn't belong to you guys exclusively.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Look, I do have to ask this, but there seems to be this ownership thing, when it comes to the flag, why is do you seem to exclusively tie it to the Military.

For me the flag belongs to all.

I know you guys take it very seriously... But your explicit calls for violence against those who practice is aren't particularly healthy in my book.

The flag doesn't belong to you guys exclusively.

I included every American!

 

[Carjosse]

You sound much more educated on the subject than my wiki search, so I bow to your knowledge of the subject.

Funny how some prefer to destroy old history rather than make new history.

The whole university political correctness plague spread to South Africa as well.

 

[justabubba]

Nice generic statement. You realize it goes both ways. The intolerance of the "burner' to people who disagree with them by knowing burning the flag will not set well with some, also dishonors the flag.

Bottom line you cannot please everyone.

in no way is that flag burner acting respectfully
he intends to incite by his action ... otherwise why burn it

just as the angry red neck who tosses the word 'nigger' towards a black person
engage in provocative free speech, that while legal, may result in a response you do not desire

but the OP is rightly presenting this flag as symbolic of our freedoms. yet he then proudly proclaims that he would attack someone who exercised their own freedom in a way he did not appreciate

not surprised his post documents an obliviousness to the irony of his position

 

[Fishking]

Look, I do have to ask this, but there seems to be this ownership thing, when it comes to the flag, why is do you seem to exclusively tie it to the Military.

For me the flag belongs to all.

I know you guys take it very seriously... But your explicit calls for violence against those who practice is aren't particularly healthy in my book.

The flag doesn't belong to you guys exclusively.

It's for everyone but not everyone has shed blood while wearing on their right shoulder. There is a reason our coffins are draped by the flag. Hell, I don't even fully include myself in that group because despite 3 deployments, I'm just support. I haven't been in the same **** that the ground-pounders have had to suffer through. If I recognize that much, even having served, it multiplies for those who haven't. I don't think our country is perfect. I think we get a lot of things wrong. I can recognize that without disrespecting something that is a symbol of what is a noble idea. Despite our some of the darkness in our past and present, we've also been responsible for a lot of light in this world in only a short history.

All these people complaining but what real sacrifice have they given to this country to earn even the barest minimum to show any level of disrespect? People want to complain but they've done little beyond being born. People need to go out and do something to earn some legitimacy, instead of taking everything for granted. I can recognize work outside the military, even among those who I politically disagree with. For example, the work Bernie Sanders has done.

 

[X Factor]

Feeling victimized by any negative comments about the US whatsoever?

Can't help but notice you said this after I posted and I'm the only one who really said much.

You gotta understand one thing X Factor, criticism isn't hatred and for my countries and yours, neither of our **** don't stink.

You gonna get upset about something I said without quoting me, either engage or don't bother.

Actually, there was somebody else perusing the thread that I just knew wouldn't be able to post a couple drive-by US bashing lines, and he did.

America has always loved freedom....unless your black, or a woman, or gay, or hispanic, or asian, or atheist, or a native american, or muslim, or pretty much anyone whos not a rich white man.... but yeah freedom

It's a little funny you accuse me feeling victimized then just assumed my post was directed at you. :lamo.

To be honest, I just skimmed your long ass post.

 

[D_NATURED]

tell me that again after your loved ones get attacked in the broad daylight.

Are you saying that worshiping cloth keeps my family safe? I disagree. What keeps my family safe is that most people believe in the logic and reason behind our laws and have a rational morality and don't want to hurt anyone any way.

Use your "logic" and reason to convince them to pick another victim.

I'm not arguing for pacifism. I believe you should defend yourself against violence and tyranny but we can't let fear keep us from doing the right thing or, worse, justify doing the wrong thing. Telling me that they're out to get me is a lousy excuse for creating a religion out of war.

Some countries and ideologies are as predatory as those hood rats. They only understand force, because that is all they know.

Hood rats? Do you mean black people? I think declaring certain people to only understand force was the opinion of Martin Luther, about the jews. It justified the NAZI regime's reign of terror. Be careful when you open the emotional floodgates of your disdain for the poor. Atrocities can occur where moral decisions are replaced by absolute judgements of an entire people.

I don't know what this guy was on, but once in Yemen as a contractor, even as he was dying, his eyes were completely wild and crazy like a wild animal.

He was probably obsessed with an invisible god and some invisible borders. Many people get that way.

The Marines in Fallujah told stories of some kind of drug they took, but all I know is this guy was nuts ...but not bulletproof.

You can't use reason and logic with people or countries like that.

You can only dispense logic 147 grains at a time when dealing with them.

So, you are actually arguing that there is a race of people that can't be reasoned with and must be exterminated? There's nothing more frightening than the righteous entitlement to genocide. I'm speechless.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Are you saying that worshiping cloth keeps my family safe? I disagree. What keeps my family safe is that most people believe in the logic and reason behind our laws and have a rational morality and don't want to hurt anyone any way.



I'm not arguing for pacifism. I believe you should defend yourself against violence and tyranny but we can't let fear keep us from doing the right thing or, worse, justify doing the wrong thing. Telling me that they're out to get me is a lousy excuse for creating a religion out of war.



Hood rats? Do you mean black people? I think declaring certain people to only understand force was the opinion of Martin Luther, about the jews. It justified the NAZI regime's reign of terror. Be careful when you open the emotional floodgates of your disdain for the poor. Atrocities can occur where moral decisions are replaced by absolute judgements of an entire people.



He was probably obsessed with an invisible god and some invisible borders. Many people get that way.



So, you are actually arguing that there is a race of people that can't be reasoned with and must be exterminated? There's nothing more frightening than the righteous entitlement to genocide. I'm speechless.

Funny how a thread posted about national pride about our nations flag has gotten perverted by the left so much that they are now talking about genocide.
Talk about a classic example of HYPERBOLE!

PS...NO ONE, least of all me, mentioned WORSHIP. YOU were the only one to do that. Get a grip, you are loosing your touch on reality.

Drop your anchor before you float away on a tide of your own making.

Get your paper bag and breath into it slow...slow...lower that blood pressure...slow....

I make a post about loving our nation and honoring its flag, and you have made me to be David Duke, Ida Amin, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot all in one post.

Maybe you should ask yourself what makes you so HYPER CRAZY about what I said that you are floating away from reality and tilting at windmills.

What a maroon.
(munch, munch, munch)

 

[Leo]

The physical properties of a national flag are no more than a piece of coloured and patterned cloth (or similar material), but its significance varies, as does its emotional appeal - to different people. AFIK national flags evolved from colourful tribal banners and pennants (usually attached to lances or spears) used in battle as rallying points for the troops. Over time, these evolved into various national regalia, including national flags.

As someone who has grown up in a military family whose service to the Crown pre-dates the emergence of the USA, I am quite aware of things such as flag protocol, and the respect customarily afforded national symbols. This conditioning leads me to regard the discourteous treatment of any nation's flag as undesirable, and a breach of good manners. But those are my values, which I do not have the right to impose upon anyone else.

My late father died fighting in the Middle East under the Union Flag, and went to his final rest on a gun carriage draped with that national emblem, so it has some significance for me. But having said that, I have no right to expect any of my fellow Brits (let alone any 'foreigner') to afford it the respect I feel compelled to.

So I must regretfully conclude that - to many, if not most - people, the national flag is really not much more than a piece of coloured cloth, and we have no right to condemn them for that opinion. An additional consideration being - despite my family background, and personal feeling upon the matter - I am aware of the dangers attendant upon the cult of military worship and symbols. It is a characteristic which can lead to Fascism.

So I would rather people be allowed to burn, or stamp on, the national flag, than be imprisoned, or worse, for so doing.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Look, I do have to ask this, but there seems to be this ownership thing, when it comes to the flag, why is do you seem to exclusively tie it to the Military.

For me the flag belongs to all.

I know you guys take it very seriously... But your explicit calls for violence against those who practice is aren't particularly healthy in my book.

The flag doesn't belong to you guys exclusively.

but we are the ones tasked with protecting it...AND...we are the ONLY ONES that see profaning it as wrong and will actually do something about it.

When we see a wrong, and profaning the flag is, we step in and stop that wrong.

We are people of action, not theoretical words.

In ANY nation's military, having your flag captured by the enemy is a great DISHONOR.

Standing by and allowing it to be dishonored is just as bad.

Maybe that is the difference.

Even most civilians know this fact.

but those that HATE what it stands for don't care.

If it is just a piece of colored cloth, then why are they so RABID about destroying it?

It is because they also know it means one hell of a lot. They know it is not, and that is why they make it a target....and that is why WE make them a target for doing so.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

The physical properties of a national flag are no more than a piece of coloured and patterned cloth (or similar material), but its significance varies, as does its emotional appeal - to different people. AFIK national flags evolved from colourful tribal banners and pennants (usually attached to lances or spears) used in battle as rallying points for the troops. Over time, these evolved into various national regalia, including national flags.

As someone who has grown up in a military family whose service to the Crown pre-dates the emergence of the USA, I am quite aware of things such as flag protocol, and the respect customarily afforded national symbols. This conditioning leads me to regard the discourteous treatment of any nation's flag as undesirable, and a breach of good manners. But those are my values, which I do not have the right to impose upon anyone else.

My late father died fighting in the Middle East under the Union Flag, and went to his final rest on a gun carriage draped with that national emblem, so it has some significance for me. But having said that, I have no right to expect any of my fellow Brits (let alone any 'foreigner') to afford it the respect I feel compelled to.

So I must regretfully conclude that - to many, if not most - people, the national flag is really not much more than a piece of coloured cloth, and we have no right to condemn them for that opinion. An additional consideration being - despite my family background, and personal feeling upon the matter - I am aware of the dangers attendant upon the cult of military worship and symbols. It is a characteristic which can lead to Fascism.

So I would rather people be allowed to burn, or stamp on, the national flag, than be imprisoned, or worse, for so doing.

I do not condemn then for that opinion. I condemn them for PROFANING the symbol of our nation, because in doing so, they also profane the nation itself and all it stand for.

but I have said that like a bazillion times before.

People hear what they want to hear. Deaf to everything else.

I have also said a bazillion times, if those doing the burning had their way, NONE of the rights they enjoy would exist anymore. Just ask them. The flag burners are totalitarian freedom hating pukes.

I have only beat the living dog crap out of maybe 11 people in my life. The times I got beat are more, but you learn more and more each time till you get to a point it does not happen anymore.

All 11 times, only 2 I completely enjoyed. They were both loud-mouthed privileged Mercedes Marxists who cussed their country up one side and down the other, all the while having an American Express Gold Card in their wallet. Some of us do not have enough money to be a communist.

PS...I also learned the hard way to NOT turn your beer mug upside down on the bar when in the UK. Thank God, I did not know what I was doing. I was forgiven...ONCE.

 

[dimensionallava]

Civil War: 300,000 Union casualties alone freeing African Americans from slavery. Later on numerous welfare state programs created with them and other minorities specifically in mind.

Women: Gained to the right to vote a long time ago, and from the 1950s on their role has been changing in ways never foreseen by previous generations of humanity.

Gay: Unlike in certain countries, it's not illegal to be gay, and you won't be executed. Not to mention the fact that LGBT people are steadily gaining more and more rights, which would have made someone laugh in your face twenty years ago.

Asian: Took in all those boat people after the fall of Saigon. The big anti immigrant feeling on the West Coast was always more localized instead of nationwide.


Atheist: The fact that a very prominently officially atheist state was our main opposition in the Cold War more or less explains that.

Native Americans: Ignoring the facts that they were happily warring it up with each other well before any Europeans showed up....it was a nasty conflict, and things happen in wars. There were massacres on both sides.

Muslims: backlash from 9/11---understandable, if not what I'd encourage or recommend

so when you say america "loves freedom" you mean since like when? 1980, 1990? since when exactly?

excluding muslims of course ya know because its not like america did anything to muslims or the middle east before 9/11, so thats totally their fault lol

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

No, I can't think of a good reason for it.

Good. Thank you.