Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

Simon W. Moon · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

hazlnut said:
Great point, and I've been thinking a lot about what this case says about gun laws and owner ship, but I don't want to derail the thread.

I have to say, it seems like the usual pro-NRA folks have stayed out of this tread, and I applaud them for that.

It's just so not about gun laws. at all. afaict.

ARealConservative · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

rocket88 said:
Will Trayvon Martin case spur rethinking of Stand Your Ground laws? - CSMonitor.com

when exactly? That did not mention my name who made such a claim.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
Martin, clearly the superior and many of us see the obviousness of that, didn't know he had brought fist and feet to what became a gun fight. That the old guy might have a gun is one reason 17 year olds shouldn't get too cocky about wanting beating up old guys that are annoying him.

This is sick.

ThePlayDrive · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

hazlnut said:
Great point, and I've been thinking a lot about what this case says about gun laws and owner ship, but I don't want to derail the thread.

I don't think is about gun ownership, I think this is about a psychotic individual who used a gun irresponsibly. Just like some people use cars irresponsibly, some people use guns irresponsibly. I'm all for gun restrictions based on severe mental disorders and violent criminal histories, but you can't stop every dangerous person from getting a gun legally anymore than you can stop every dangerous person from getting a car legally.

I have to say, it seems like the usual pro-NRA folks have stayed out of this tread, and I applaud them for that.

Actually, most of them have been in the thread and have criticized Zimmerman for his actions.

AGENT J · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

ThePlayDrive said:
Do you seriously not see the threat that a person who follows innocent people down the street and then ends up killing them is to society?

There is no larger more rational and sound significant point than this!

and it will be ignored buy the dishonest.

If you disagree with this point then basically you are an idiot beyond the belief

because to not acknowledge this point basically means that anybody could kill anybody by letting themselves get their ass kicked, its ridiculous.

If I dont like you I just follow you with a gun, grab you and turn you around and yell at you to provoke you, you push me, I push you back then you punch me I fall on my back, pull out my gun and shoot you, claim I was scared for my life and it was self defense.

:shrug:

zimmerman guilty of many crimes or not is DEFINITELY a threat to society and civility.

mogur15 · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Simon W. Moon said:
It's just so not about gun laws. at all. afaict.

I beg to differ, noob to this board that I am.

When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

According to Florida Statute 776.032 :776.032
Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—(1)
A person who uses force as permitted in s.776.012, s.776.013, or s.776.031is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force

However, if you read .012, .013, and .031, you see that Mr Zimmerman does not necessarily qualify under these statues.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
776.031 Use of force in defense of others.

Furthermore, the prohibiting of arrest does not apply if the person against whom the defensive force is used has a right to be where they are:

“The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if: (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in.”

And more importantly, and most disingenuously, the person is not exempt under the claimed statute from arrest if they “Initially provoke(s) the use of force against himself or herself.”

The person who provokes the force against themselves is not protected by the statue the City Manager quoted:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

City Manager Offers Misleading Justification for Not Arresting Travyon Martin’s Shooter

BTW, the city manager only offered the police chief's explanation. He neither authored nor approved of the chief's response.

This is all about guns laws, actually.

Sheik Yerbuti · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
You are trying real hard to spin this.
Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind.
That is the evidence we have, and that definitely is not standing your ground.

Ummm, there is no evidence of that.

mogur15 · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

[I guess noobs aren't allowed to post links, so you'll have to google the title of the second quote]

Simon W. Moon said:
It's just so not about gun laws. at all. afaict.

I beg to differ, noob to this board that I am.

When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

According to
Florida Statute 776.032 :776.032
Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—(1)
A person who uses force as permitted in s.776.012, s.776.013, or s.776.031is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force

However, if you read .012, .013, and .031, you see that Mr Zimmerman does not necessarily qualify under these statues.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
776.031 Use of force in defense of others.

Furthermore, the prohibiting of arrest does not apply if the person against whom the defensive force is used has a right to be where they are:

“The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if: (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in.”

And more importantly, and most disingenuously, the person is not exempt under the claimed statute from arrest if they “Initially provoke(s) the use of force against himself or herself.”

The person who provokes the force against themselves is not protected by the statue the City Manager quoted:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[City Manager Offers Misleading Justification for Not Arresting Travyon Martin’s Shooter]

BTW, the city manager only offered the police chief's explanation. He neither authored nor approved of the chief's response.

Not about gun possession laws per se, but definitely pertains to gun use.

j-mac · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Without reading the 100 + pages of this thread, allow me to chime in and say that this is horrifying, and very very sad for the family of the young man....Zimmerman needs to be arrested immediately before this situation gets out of hand. However, this doesn't, and shouldn't be the catalyst for the calls of gun control, unfortunately the is no longer about the young man killed as much as it is about the loud mouth, publicity whores, and race baitiing poverty pimps like Sharpton....

j-mac

What if...? · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

joko104 said:
A lot of words, but they don't mean much. "Guilty of creating a deadly environment" and "deadly scenario." That statute isn't on the books in Florida. What state are you in?

Look, you can think Zimmerman is the scum of the earth, a true maniac, paranoid, bigoted, low intelligent wacko. But that doesn't make a winnable criminal case.

I like your phrase of "the hunted becomes the hunter." I think that is EXACTLY what happened.

Sooooo... we get to really is the few seconds fact-question of the entire case - and only Zimmerman the living witness that knows what that fact is - if in the panic even he does. In the few seconds of the fight, how did the gun get into that picture and, exactly, the "scrambling for the gun."

MAYBE forensics will give a strong indication (distance of the shot - and the angle of it.) Maybe a voice print can tell us who was shouting and shouting what? Or maybe only Karnak the Great can ever know. If the latter is what is true, it is a "not guilty." Just like innocent people get convicted sometimes, even more times guilty people go free simply for lack of sufficient evidence.

When I SEEMINGLY argue FOR Zimmerman, really I am arguing against some slogan, premise or overall concept I disagree with. And we disagree about neighborhood crime watch as an example.

But to get a conviction - I mean a legitimate one because I think this now soooo far into politics that may not be possible - requires certainties and absolutes.

We can't know what we can't know. We can't know what we aren't told. For example, did the police ask Ziimmerman to take a polygraph test? Did they do a drug test on Martin? Zimmerman? Were I the defense attorney for Zimmerman, I'd want him to refuse a polygraph. But I would DEMAND a hair sample - AND FAST - of Martin's hair hoping to find out if it indicated pot, cocaine, and certainty if it indicated meth. Etc. Do you think that would be relevant? If Martin showed meth usage - a drug that tends to make people feel like superman and of violent outbursts? Or pot, that can make some people paranoid?

I didn't write that to slam Martin, just some of the almost countless "tool" and "issues" and question marks the defense can raise - noting the defense doesn't have to prove anything, only raise question marks.

I would LOVE to see a toxicology from Zimmerman. Hair can tell a partial story even after the fact.

Also, the reason he was.rejected to be a police officer.

solletica · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

j-mac said:
Without reading the 100 + pages of this thread, allow me to chime in and say that this is horrifying, and very very sad for the family of the young man....Zimmerman needs to be arrested immediately before this situation gets out of hand. However, this doesn't, and shouldn't be the catalyst for the calls of gun control, unfortunately the is no longer about the young man killed as much as it is about the loud mouth, publicity whores, and race baitiing poverty pimps like Sharpton....

j-mac

There is zero evidence that Zimmerman is guilty of anything. All that's known is that a confrontation ensued--the details of that confrontation are unknown and it's merely one person's words against another.

People like sharpton are just acting like idiots or hypocrites. If a Black man had used a gun in self-defense against one or more White people, i. e. KKK members, skinheads, etc. there wouldn't be a peep from him.

The Black community in Florida needs to wake up and see the big picture--that the existing law in Florida that protects those like Zimmerman protects them as well.

j-mac · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

solletica said:
There is zero evidence that Zimmerman is guilty of anything.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. The 911 tape is pretty clear in that the 911 dispatch officer clearly told Zimmerman to stop pursuing the young man. He ignored that, and ended up shooting and killing the kid.

All that's known is that a confrontation ensued--the details of that confrontation are unknown and it's merely one person's words against another.

Zimmerman's word against who's? The dead kids?

People like sharpton are just acting like idiots or hypocrites. If a Black man had used a gun in self-defense against one or more White people, i. e. KKK members, skinheads, etc. there wouldn't be a peep from him.

Agreed, I don't like Sharpton, and other race baiters like him. But, we should be careful against using hypotheticals against a real situation like we have here.

The Black community in Florida needs to wake up and see the big picture--that the existing law in Florida that protects those like Zimmerman protects them as well.

Why? Is the 'stand your ground' law for whites only?

j-mac

ric27 · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

j-mac said:
Zimmerman needs to be arrested immediately before this situation gets out of hand. However, this doesn't, and shouldn't be the catalyst for the calls of gun control, unfortunately the is no longer about the young man killed as much as it is about the loud mouth, publicity whores, and race baitiing poverty pimps like Sharpton....

j-mac

On what charge? For being an asshole?

Charges can sometimes take a while. The initial arresting charge can change over the course of several hours....but at this stage (close to a month)

I don't see it

OhIsee.Then · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

rocket88 said:
... The law as interpreted by a judge may be one thing, but the authors of the SYG law say it wasn't their intent to protect someone in a case like this.

Now they say that. But, I think the law was working as intended by the authors until it became an issue in the USA.

What if...? · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

ric27 said:
On what charge? For being an asshole?

Charges can sometimes take a while. The initial arresting charge can change over the course of several hours....but at this stage (close to a month)

I don't see it

Its not unusual for there to be a year or more time limit for filing charges.

And we've all seen some cop on tv tell somebody in suspiscious circumstances "don't leave town".

Frankly, from what I've heard the cops probably weren't dead wrong based on evidence at the scene.

It was the failure to follow up as further evidence arose that makes the whole thing stink.

"Oh crap! It was THAT ****ing Zimmerman?"

"There was somebody on the phone with Martin DURING this whole mess?"

"There's audio of SOMEBODY yelling for help?"

"There's NOTHING in Martins history that indicates a proclivity towards violence?"

"NOTHING in Martins bloodstream?"

How many question marks are necessary before an investigation is launched?

Yet none was until the media hubbub.

j-mac · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

ric27 said:
On what charge? For being an asshole?

If that were an actual charge, depending on the timing, most of us at one time or another would end up in the hoosgow....heh, heh....

Charges can sometimes take a while. The initial arresting charge can change over the course of several hours....but at this stage (close to a month)

I agree that they need to nail down the evidence to make sure that if found guilty, then he gets the book, gavel, and entire courthouse thrown at him. But you are correct that for now he is presumed innocent. I just have a huge problem with the pursuit after he was told to cease.

I don't see it

j-mac

ric27 · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

j-mac said:
If that were an actual charge, depending on the timing, most of us at one time or another would end up in the hoosgow....heh, heh....

I would favor, the immediate revocation of Zimmerman's breeding license in most cases.

Excon · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It is amazing how many time one must repeat the facts before they sink into others heads.
Zimmerman was not told not to do anything by the 911 operator. The operator made a suggestion to him that they didn't need him to do that.

There is a difference between someone saying 'don't do this' and 'we don't need you to do this'.
One is telling someone what to do, while the other is only a suggestion.

Now some are arguing that it was a cop who answered the phone and made that suggestion.
The fact is we don't know if that is true or not.
It also doesn't matter if it was an Officer on the phone.
That person had no authority over the person on the other end. None.

hazlnut said:
At about the 2:10 Mark WE CAN HEAR THE CAR OPEN AND THEN THE WIND AS ZIMMERMAN STARTS TO MOVE ON FOOT.

At 2:22 he say "F-ing coons" and then the POLICER OFFICER tells him "We don't' need you to [go after him]."

THE WING CONTINUES TO BLOW AFTER THIS, and ZIMMERMAN IS PANTING, meaning he ignores the police.

lol
Panting does not mean he ignores the police.
It means he is out of breath.

We have already gone over this time-line.
You are choosing to ignore that Zimmerman acknowledges what the operator says by saying "Ok", and the wind noise stops within 12 seconds after that acknowledgement.

You are also choosing to ignore that this fits with the girlfriends statement that says Trayvon says he lost him, and also with Zimmerman's statement that he was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon attacked him.
Which means he had stopped following him at one point.

hazlnut said:
You should really get better informed about this case before posting in this thread.

Yes you should.
Because you have been shown to be wrong multiple times.

Excon · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

VanceMack said:
Riiiiight. I think you are the one mis-characterizing the situation.

Wonderful!
If I am, then it should be no problem for you to point out these falsities, spin and mischaracterizing of mine, just like I did for yours.
Until then all we have is your spin, multiple falsities and mischaracterizing.
You even started your spin and mischaracterizing again in this post.

VanceMack said:
The narrative is pretty clear.

Your narrative is as clear as mud.
Because you rely on a biased outlook of what occurred.
It is filled with hyperbole, supposition and outright falsities.
And is just plain wrong.

VanceMack said:
being stalked and harassed

Wrong again.
There was no stalking or harassment.

VanceMack said:
carrying a weapon in a situation he shouldnt have been,

Wrong again.
No law says this.

VanceMack said:
following a kid he had no business following

Wrong again.
It was not illegal, so therefore he had every (r)ight.

VanceMack said:
after being told by a real officer not to,

This statement has been corrected over and over again, so I can only assume you are choosing to lie.
He was not told to do anything. A suggestion was made.
No one knows if it was actually an Officer and it doesn't matter if it was, because an Officer on the phone has no on site Authority over the person on the other end. None.
And as I believe was pointed out earlier, the 911 operator has no Authority because it would be a liability issue.
Wrong again.

VanceMack said:
who was carrying a weapon in a situation he shouldnt have been,

Wrong again.
No law says this.

VanceMack said:
for suspicious behavior that didnt exist.

The suspicious behavior did exist.
Whether or not you or I think it was or wasn't suspicious doesn't matter.
Because it depends on the perceptions of the one who calls it in.
And as evidenced from the call, it was enough to dispatch a unit.
Wrong again.
That isn't a great track record.

Excon · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What if...? said:
The only evidence you have that Martin was the attacker is Zimmermsns statement.

Right. Which is consistent with the girlfriends statement.

What if...? said:
NO OTHER evidence establishes who started the altercation.

Right. But his statement is consistent with the girlfriends statement.

What if...? said:
You are accepting Zims word on the subject.

I am saying that his statement is consistent with all the other evidence.
Do you understand that?
If it wasn't, I would then have a reason to doubt it.

What if...? said:
You know, the guy who's facing a murder rap if its not self defense.

Can't say for sure he lied.

You're saying for sure he didn't.

No. I have been, and are saying, his statement is consistent with the evidence.
And right now, at this point in time, I will say that any speculation or supposition that Zimmerman is lying is ridiculous.

If you would care to speculate on this issue alone, I will be happy to engage you with my opinion of why it is likely that he isn't lying.

What if...? said:
The guy with the smoking gun is ALWAYS suspect. How many movies do you think Zims seen where someone injures themselves to lend credibility to their story?

Maybe it is you who has seen to many movies?

What if...? said:
Evidently an actual.investigation is being done.
Suits me.

An actual investigation was already done.
But for the possible "coon" thing and a Fed Civ Rights violation stemming from that, if this current investigation only has the same evidence then they are most likely going to come to the same conclusion.
If the evidence isn't the same, there then may be a change. We will see.

Excon · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

hazlnut said:
Actually, it appears that Martin knocked a man to the ground who was chasing him with a gun. Then, as he was calling for help, Zimmerman shot Martin to shut him up.

The teenage boy walking his dog remembers the screams for 'help' stopping right after the gunshot.

Although, Zimmerman has a pretty high voice, he could have sounded like an adolescent--but if Zimmerman had the gun, wouldn't he be screaming "back up" or "get away from me" while warding Martin off with the gun.

It's more logical that Martin knocked down an armed man chasing him at night and then called for help, afraid he would be shot. Which is exactly what happened. Zimmerman was sick of people 'getting away' and he hated the 'f-ing coons.'

You have a very biased and vivid imagination.

rocket88 said:
Stand Your Ground authors: Trayvon Martin’s shooter should likely be charged, avoid immunity - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

The law as interpreted by a judge may be one thing, but the authors of the SYG law say it wasn't their intent to protect someone in a case like this.

You realize that this does not matter?
Do you also realize that the author hasn't been totally informed of the information surrounding the issue to even form an opinion on the subject.
It was nothing more than political grandstanding.

Sheik Yerbuti said:
Ummm, there is no evidence of that.

Ummm, yes there is.
Zimmerman's statement is evidence. It is consistent with the other gathered evidence.

j-mac said:
The 911 tape is pretty clear in that the 911 dispatch officer clearly told Zimmerman to stop pursuing the young man.

Tell me Airborn, how do you get that it was an order as in he "told" him from the following statement?

The 911 operator tells Zimmerman the following: "We don't need you to do that.".
That is not be "told" to do anything.
That is not an order.
It is a suggestion. A suggestion from someone who has no authority over the caller.

So saying he was "told", is just simply wrong.

Excon · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Objective-J said:
ThePlayDrive said:

Do you seriously not see the threat that a person who follows innocent people down the street and then ends up killing them is to society?

Click to expand...

There is no larger more rational and sound significant point than this!

and it will be ignored buy the dishonest.

If you disagree with this point then basically you are an idiot beyond the belief

because to not acknowledge this point basically means that anybody could kill anybody by letting themselves get their ass kicked, its ridiculous.

That statement, as applied in general, without other evidence is absolutely correct.

But it does not apply to this case because of the evidence.
Two can play this bs game. Watch.
Anybody who believes it does apply to this case, is ignoring the evidence and is an idiot beyond belief.

j-mac · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
Tell me Airborn, how do you get that it was an order as in he "told" him from the following statement?

The 911 operator tells Zimmerman the following: "We don't need you to do that.".
That is not be "told" to do anything.
That is not an order.
It is a suggestion. A suggestion from someone who has no authority over the caller.

So saying he was "told", is just simply wrong.

Well, You are correct in what the operator says, but keep in mind that they are also in contact to the law enforcement en route to the call. So, as a rule the operator, and the police themselves are always going to follow the road of trouble averted if they can. However, you said earlier that the kid was acting suspiciously, tell me, what would that have been?

j-mac

ric27 · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
An actual investigation was already done.
But for the possible "coon" thing and a Fed Civ Rights violation stemming from that, if this current investigation only has the same evidence then they are most likely going to come to the same conclusion.
If the evidence isn't the same, there then may be a change. We will see.

Agreed

Sadly, politics have more to do with what a DA does and how a jury reacts than law

AGENT J · Mar 22, 2012

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Excon said:
That statement, as applied in general, without other evidence is absolutely correct.

But it does not apply to this case because of the evidence.
Two can play this bs game. Watch.
Anybody who believes it does apply to this case, is ignoring the evidence and is an idiot beyond belief.

nothing BS about, if you disagree with my statement thats on you and it must make you feel guilty or something that you are trying to attack it.

The truth is you dont know if it applies to this case there is no evidence saying it does mine was just an example, notice the part where I said guilty of many crimes or not LMAO

nice try but you field and my statement stands while yours has zero backing

tell me that cool part about BS again? :lamo

Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

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What if...?

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What if...?

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Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

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