Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

That is soooo not true. You cannot use deadly force because someone punches you. If you could, there would be few fist fights because everyone would shoot the person who slugged them and claim deadly force was a necessary response.

As far as being knocked down and kicked, where have you read that that occurred? I have not seen that.

Zimmerman, with his aggressive confrontation, provoked Martin. Martin was within his right to resort to a physical, but non-lethal defense if he believed Zimmerman posed an imminent threat to him. You cannot provoke someone into hitting you and then kill them and then rely on the 'Stand Your Ground' protection to keep your ass out of jail. This is not the wild wild west.

If the Stand Your Ground defense allows someone to be the aggressor (which Zimmerman was when he got out of his car) and further finds he was legally within his rights to then shoot the kid, the Stand Your Ground defense needs to change. The idea that one can jump out of his car, bully or otherwise engage someone on the street, get punched in the nose and then kill someone legally is ludicrous.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

what causes you to insist it is clear that zimmerman provoked the incident
are you telling us that zimmerman did not have the right to walk the same street as the kid
that it is not illegal to approach someone to ask a question - even a bold question
if the kid lost his composure and assaulted zimmerman, then zimmerman did have the right to defend himself against such physical aggression

He wasn't "walking the same street".
- Martin was walking down the street.
- Zimmerman was driving down the street at a walking pace.
- Martin suspected he was being followed by someone in a vehicle and stopped walking.
- Zimmerman stopped his vehicle.
- Martin approached Zimmerman's vehicle.
- Martin walked away from Zimmerman's vehicle.
- Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and followed Martin.

That's stalking and all the evidence for those actions is from Zimmerman's own phone call to police. This wasn't just some random meeting on the street as you're trying to claim.


If Zimmerman had beat the snot out of Martin that would have been one thing but that's clearly not what happened. You can't meet non-lethal force with lethal force. That doesn't even work for LEO's. If anybody had a right to fear for their life it was Martin, a teenager being stalked by a grown man.

And let's not forget - at some point Zimmerman must have pulled that gun out of it's holster.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

he behaved in such a way as to cause zimmerman to be alarmed to the point to report that to the police via 911 call. it could have been a false alarm, but zimmerman would only learn that by monitoring his activities in a lawful way
nothing has been shown to prove zimmerman acted unlawfully

Yes, alarmed him enough to call 911. But then Zimmerman got out of his car to confront the kid. He instigated the entire incident. This guy was looking for trouble, created it, then killed a kid.

The FBI is now investigating. That guy's toast.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

That's all you and justabubba are doing.[ /QUOTE]

No, what has happened is some public figures for their own agenda have stirred up lynch mob mentality who rage that anyone who even suggesting waiting at least until all the evidence is gathered be declaring someone a murder is defending the obvious murderer. This really is quite disgusting and demonstrates that ffew people actually believe in rule of law and is why so many innocent people are sent to prison and even put on death row.

By all means, decide guilt before all evidence is in. Nothing is more pro-murder than the forensic evidence in your opinion.

Who is trying to help the defense of Zimmerman are all of you wanting police and DA action against him before, not after, the forensic evidence - to make it appear that the police and DA seem as prejudiced against Zimmerman for the Defense team as possible.

Unless you really got the balls to go lynch Zimmerman, stop talking and thinking like a vigilante committee.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Title XIVI Chapter 776.041

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

Now while there is the caveat included that provoking someone doesn't allow them to kill you, especially if you are unsuccessfully trying to remove yourself from the fight, the meaning of that clause is that you cannot provoke a fight and then just kill your target because the punch you for provoking the fight.

Zimmerman hunted this kid down. He followed him by car and then by foot. He was the aggressor, not Trayvon.

So what you are saying is that if anyone follows me and approaches me with angry words, I get to beat the crap out of the guy and only when it has become clear that I'm beating him to death can he use deadly force to try and stop me, assuming I haven't already taken his firearm from him.

So should it happen that the background voice in the second 911 call was Zimmerman and he was calling for help because Martin was stomping in the head, that doesn't really count as a potential of grave bodily injury - therefore really the DA and FBI should just throw that tape away and not do forensic testing to see whose voice it is and what was said because in your view that obviously irrelevant to anything.

This lynch mob guilty-before-evidence raging is a reason there was no justice for Calee Martin and if you people got away with this knew-jerk media telling sheep what to think there would be none for Martin.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

if anything, the Stand Your Ground defense should be on the side of the kid, and not Zimmermann.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Title XIVI Chapter 776.041

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

Now while there is the caveat included that provoking someone doesn't allow them to kill you, especially if you are unsuccessfully trying to remove yourself from the fight, the meaning of that clause is that you cannot provoke a fight and then just kill your target because the punch you for provoking the fight.

Zimmerman hunted this kid down. He followed him by car and then by foot. He was the aggressor, not Trayvon.

What is your evidence that Zimmerman was the physical violence aggressor?

Understand exactly what you are claim is "law." You are claiming if you approached someone with angry words at the person, you have legally provoked the other person to beat the crap out of you because you provoked the violence in your words. If somehow we knew each other, you saw me, and rushed across the street furiously telling me what I posted about this is all F...ed up!" and that I'm an "asshole" - following me saying "Hey! I'm talking to you" - at that point you have provoked me into slugging you in the face and knock you to the ground stomping on your head - all of which is your fault.

Your legal interpretation is that mere words justify using violence against someone. So assaulting angry protestors REALLY IS legal afterall - or so you say.


Do you really believe that words justify violence - and as a matter of law? That IS what you are saying.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

So you also are claiming a woman cannot use deadly force to stop a sexual assault. Think again.

Think about it. What you have been arguing is that if you want to kill someone and get away with it, all you have to do is pick a fight with them and when they start kicking your ass, just blow them away.

 

[Ben K.]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, what has happened is some public figures for their own agenda have stirred up lynch mob mentality who rage that anyone who even suggesting waiting at least until all the evidence is gathered be declaring someone a murder is defending the obvious murderer. This really is quite disgusting and demonstrates that ffew people actually believe in rule of law and is why so many innocent people are sent to prison and even put on death row.

By all means, decide guilt before all evidence is in. Nothing is more pro-murder than the forensic evidence in your opinion.

Who is trying to help the defense of Zimmerman are all of you wanting police and DA action against him before, not after, the forensic evidence - to make it appear that the police and DA seem as prejudiced against Zimmerman for the Defense team as possible.

Unless you really got the balls to go lynch Zimmerman, stop talking and thinking like a vigilante committee.

Or, you know, have a proper investigation and get those forensics teams involved. You were pissed that the man would even be charged at all lest we forget, not that he'd be convicted without trial.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

.... And yet - this lunatic committed a crime. Can we please stop avoiding the obvious now?

Why do you so hate tangible forensic evidence?

 

[mac]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Why do you so hate tangible forensic evidence?

Why do you hate that it took an uproar for there to be any investigation at all?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Or, you know, have a proper investigation and get those forensics teams involved. You were pissed that the man would even be charged at all lest we forget, not that he'd be convicted without trial.

I am writing about proper police and DA actions and tactics. Summarily arresting him would have been grotesquely incompetent police work and greatly helpful to his defense team. It would PROVE that police made their decision before forensic evidence - calling both their entire investigation, what the police said and the forensic evidence into question.

What I am "pissed" about? The death of Calee Anthony and how prosecution blew the case yielding to pressure from people like you and the media.

If you got your way from the start, a conviction of Zimmerman would ultimate be vastly more difficult. You want punishment not only before trial, but before evidence. You want him in jail where he stays unless in a year or more he if he is found innocent. That way you assure he serves long jail time regardless. You're someone stirred up by public figures to lynch mob thinking. Fortunately, so far, no one in the criminal justice system has given that mentality legitimacy.

When there is forensic evidence supporting a charge they will make it. You'd make a particularly incompetent cop by what you are writing.

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Why do you so hate tangible forensic evidence?

Just because you place someone under arrest does not mean you stop gathering evidence. Why are you ok with this guy still walking free. He openly admits killing another person. An unarmed person. In any state in the union (besides Florida it seems) the shooter would be in police custody until they figured out the situation.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, what has happened is some public figures for their own agenda have stirred up lynch mob mentality who rage that anyone who even suggesting waiting at least until all the evidence is gathered be declaring someone a murder is defending the obvious murderer. This really is quite disgusting and demonstrates that ffew people actually believe in rule of law and is why so many innocent people are sent to prison and even put on death row.

By all means, decide guilt before all evidence is in. Nothing is more pro-murder than the forensic evidence in your opinion.

Who is trying to help the defense of Zimmerman are all of you wanting police and DA action against him before, not after, the forensic evidence - to make it appear that the police and DA seem as prejudiced against Zimmerman for the Defense team as possible.

This comment would be valid if we didn't have as much information as we do. However, we have a great deal of information that leads to a conclusion. For some reason, you have decided to take all of that evidence and use it to come to the least plausible conclusion one could reach.

Unless you really got the balls to go lynch Zimmerman, stop talking and thinking like a vigilante committee.

It doesn't take "balls" to lynch someone. Maybe that's the kind of logic that has steered you in the wrong direction.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Casey Anthony owes her freedom to people such as you. But unlike you, I was on little Calee's side.

Is there ANYONE else who is on this thread who is or was in law enforcement or the criminal justice system?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Think about it. What you have been arguing is that if you want to kill someone and get away with it, all you have to do is pick a fight with them and when they start kicking your ass, just blow them away.

Not in the slightest. You have completely reversed it.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Casey Anthony owes her freedom to people such as you. But unlike you, I was on little Calee's side.

Is there ANYONE else who is on this thread who is or was in law enforcement or the criminal justice system?

This comment is desperate.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

if anything, the Stand Your Ground defense should be on the side of the kid, and not Zimmermann.

The sponsors of the bill have both some out and condemned Zimmermans actions and stated that his actions are not protected under Stand Your Ground.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

This is the legal expertise of those on this thread.

At the scene: You, as the police, once he said he shot Martin, should have immediately told him: "You are under arrest for murder. You have a right to remain silent and anything you say WILL be used in court against you. You have a right to an attorney and if you cannot afford one, an attorney will be appointed to you."

Then at the station, you would again remind him you know he's a murderer, he's under arrest, and he gets lawyer, "we all know exactly what happened. Tell us exactly what happened as it exactly did so we can use that in court against you." Of course he's not going to say he wants to talk to that lawyer.

Then, in trial, you tell the jury to Defense questions: "Of course I immediately knew exactly what happened and that he's a murder. So, no, we didn't need any evidence to know that and no, we did not explore any other possibility before arresting him. And no, I didn't need to see any forensic testing results first. Why would we? Everyone knew immediately everything that happened. Besides, if I didn't arrest him immediately he would have fled the country. I know his type. And his type needs to go straight to jail. Grand juries are just a big waste of everyone's time.
No, other than Zimmerman, there were no eye witnesses to the shooting. But Zimmerman admitted he pulled the trigger. That's all we needed to know. That and that he called 911 that he was following Martin. That's murder, plain and simple, no exceptions, so there really was nothing else to investigate.
Instead, what we did is put together this collection of evidence against Zimmerman after we arrested and charged him to prove to you what we already knew for you jurors so all of you can all agree that I was right from the very start. Everything we put together all only shows that I was 100% right in my instant decision. No, believe me when I tell you that I didn't selectively pick evidence, i certainly wasn't out to get Zimmerman but completely fair and impartial towards him, believe me that there is no other evidence and no we didn't pointlessly look any other evidence - because I knew in the first 15 minutes exactly what happened.
Besides, that new forensic stuff isn't necessary. Law enforcement did just fine without it for over 200 years. Why fix what isn't broken? We don't have time for that anyway, at least not when a case is immediately solved.
Trust me, I'm in law enforcement, I know what I'm doing and anyone I say is guilty always is. I'm very proud of my perfect conviction record and my time efficiency in solving crimes. I don't wasting my time. Its actually quite easy for me to know who's guilty and who's not. In fact, 100% of everyone I say is guilty had been found guilty."


THAT is what most on this thread are furious didn't happen. In your minds, the trial certainly should last more than 30 minutes, an hour tops.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

So what you are saying is that if anyone follows me and approaches me with angry words, I get to beat the crap out of the guy and only when it has become clear that I'm beating him to death can he use deadly force to try and stop me, assuming I haven't already taken his firearm from him.

So should it happen that the background voice in the second 911 call was Zimmerman and he was calling for help because Martin was stomping in the head, that doesn't really count as a potential of grave bodily injury - therefore really the DA and FBI should just throw that tape away and not do forensic testing to see whose voice it is and what was said because in your view that obviously irrelevant to anything.

This lynch mob guilty-before-evidence raging is a reason there was no justice for Calee Martin and if you people got away with this knew-jerk media telling sheep what to think there would be none for Martin.

What I am saying is ... if you are the aggressor and you provoke me and I feel you present an imminent threat to me, I am legally allowed to defend wyself with non-lethal force and strike you first; and that under those circumstances, you are not allowed to shoot me dead.

You can't get provoke someone into hitting you to defend themself and then kill them because they punch you in the nose or knock you down.

And even worse for Zimmerman is the appearance that he may have lied to aufhorities about what happened. He claimed he was jumped from behind by a sneak attack from Martin ... but there is a witness who heard Zimmerman engage Martin in a confrontational conversation.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

This comment is desperate.

It is the most relevant of all, given everyone prosecutor and defense attorney so far on the media says there need be more evidence developed.

 

[upsideguy]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, it's not grounds for murder, in Florida it's now grounds for self-defence.

One can commit murder but not have it be murder in the legal sense. Under the "Stand your Ground Law" the shooter has broad discretion to argue he "felt threatened".... and the only other witness is dead. There is a heavy burden of proof on the state here; probably an insurmountable burden. If this guy had murder in his heart (he really did commit murder), he will like walk (as he already has)... unless he just gets railroaded because of public outrage.

There may be a murder here, but the tort is this very law that he hides behind. If you are going to shoot someone, you should have a burden to prove you had some legitimacy to your actions.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

This is the legal expertise of those on this thread.

At the scene: You, as the police, once he said he shot Martin, should have immediately told him: "You are under arrest for murder. You have a right to remain silent and anything you say WILL be used in court against you. You have a right to an attorney and if you cannot afford one, an attorney will be appointed to you."

[cut for space]

You forgot the 911 tape, the witness testimonies, the girlfriend who was on the phone with him and the histories of Zimmerman and Martin. First, your comments were desperate enough to boil this down to an embarrassing Casey Anthony emotional appeal. Now, your comments are so desperate that they completely distort the arguments being made here and attribute arguments to us that we haven't made.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

One can commit murder but not have it be murder in the legal sense. Under the "Stand your Ground Law" the shooter has broad discretion to argue he "felt threatened".... and the only other witness is dead. There is a heavy burden of proof on the state here; probably an insurmountable burden. If this guy had murder in his heart (he really did commit murder), he will like walk (as he already has)... unless he just gets railroaded because of public outrage.

There may be a murder here, but the tort is this very law that he hides behind. If you are going to shoot someone, you should have a burden to prove you had some legitimacy to your actions.

If that's the upshot of the Stand Your Ground Law, it definitely needs tweaking. Not having to stand one's ground shouldn't allow for someone to pick a fight and then kill someone.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It is the most relevant of all, given everyone prosecutor and defense attorney so far on the media says there need be more evidence developed.

Simple question: If someone had been following you for a while, came up behind you to mug you, you respond by pushing them and then they shoot you, should the mugger turned killer be prosecuted or set free?