Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Nor had Zimmerman done anything "illegal." "Hassling" isn't a crime. I think I have now read 50 claimed illegalities that aren't illegal at all. Some people believe everyone is guilty and believe everything they don't like someone else doing is criminal.

I am not hearing hearsay by a lawyer of hearsay by his girl friend of what Martin said.

"Hassling" isn't necessarily a crime, but it also doesn't afford someone a 'Stand Your Ground' defense against an unarmed teenager innocently walking home from 7-11.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The eye witness saw "someone" laying on the ground and heard "someone" calling for help. Then he heard a shot and that 13 year old went into the house and someone called 911. The 13 year old said he felt it was "stereotyped" like the Martin.

Next - as their proof - MSNBC played a tape proving OMG Zimmerman used the "F" word. Then they played a "beep," saying the "beep" was the word "coon" or "punks" - not sure but the beep certainly one of those two words. Since the beep is one of those two words - not sure - obviously this was a racial hate crime murder - because everyone knows that "punks" is a racial slur and only criminals use the "F" word.
ut
I think we all agree that anyone who uses the "F" word is a racist and only racist murders use the F word about "punks" or "coons" is clearly a racist murder.

From this, MSNBC has declared the police have engaged in a coverup - specifically declaring the tapes the police released were covered up by the police - because everyone knows when police release tapes they are doing so to cover up the tapes they are releasing.

MSNBC is being absolutely absurd and at this point essentially every police and prosecution tactic is being abandoned to placad the media.

Zimmerman may ultimately be show a premeditated 1st degree murderer, but this travesity is demonstrating why criminal trials by media commentators creating mob demands is a truly awful concept. The police sure aren't going to be catching Zimmerman lying about what he said that was recorded and making sure he is aware of what witnesses are saying.

Maybe the media now should conduct a poll on this to determine whether or not he's guilty - meaning a poll asking people if they argree with the editorials of media talking heads.

I would not care to take Zimmerman's case were I a defense attorney. But if he isn't found guilty of anything, I would absolutely take his case as a civil lawyer suing MSNBC talking heads declaring it fact that Zimmerman is a racist murderer.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman's story (that he was jumped from behind) is already inconsistant with the person on the phone with Trayvon who heard Zimmerman approach Trayvon and ask him what he was doing there. While she's not an eye witness and she could be lying about what she heard, Zimmerman too has reason to lie about the events that took place.

Seeing how our beloved government has been databasing all the cell phone calls in the name of fighting terrorism, I wonder if that call could be subpoenaed? It would be devastating to Zimmerman's case.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

He also was arrested before for assaulting a cop.

He sounds like a guy who was hoping to kill somebody

the dead boy's main crime seemed to be living in a neighborhood that had someone who didn't believe blacks could live where that boy did.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Two people. One is dead from a gun shot. One was the shooter. The gun didn't go off on accident. Therefore something illegal happened.....

I'm sorry, but NO. that's not how it works.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The eye witness saw "someone" laying on the ground and heard "someone" calling for help. Then he heard a shot and that 13 year old went into the house and someone called 911. The 13 year old said he felt it was "stereotyped" like the Martin.

Next - as their proof - MSNBC played a tape proving OMG Zimmerman used the "F" word. Then they played a "beep," saying the "beep" was the word "coon" or "punks" - not sure but the beep certainly one of those two words. Since the beep is one of those two words - not sure - obviously this was a racial hate crime murder - because everyone knows that "punks" is a racial slur and only criminals use the "F" word.
ut
I think we all agree that anyone who uses the "F" word is a racist and only racist murders use the F word about "punks" or "coons" is clearly a racist murder.

From this, MSNBC has declared the police have engaged in a coverup - specifically declaring the tapes the police released were covered up by the police - because everyone knows when police release tapes they are doing so to cover up the tapes they are releasing.

MSNBC is being absolutely absurd and at this point essentially every police and prosecution tactic is being abandoned to placad the media.

Zimmerman may ultimately be show a premeditated 1st degree murderer, but this travesity is demonstrating why criminal trials by media commentators creating mob demands is a truly awful concept. The police sure aren't going to be catching Zimmerman lying about what he said that was recorded and making sure he is aware of what witnesses are saying.

Maybe the media now should conduct a poll on this to determine whether or not he's guilty - meaning a poll asking people if they argree with the editorials of media talking heads.

I would not care to take Zimmerman's case were I a defense attorney. But if he isn't found guilty of anything, I would absolutely take his case as a civil lawyer suing MSNBC talking heads declaring it fact that Zimmerman is a racist murderer.

Why do you keep quoting MSNBC?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

what causes you to insist it is clear that zimmerman provoked the incident
are you telling us that zimmerman did not have the right to walk the same street as the kid
that it is not illegal to approach someone to ask a question - even a bold question
if the kid lost his composure and assaulted zimmerman, then zimmerman did have the right to defend himself against such physical aggression


how do you know this
he behaved in such a way as to cause zimmerman to be alarmed to the point to report that to the police via 911 call
it could have been a false alarm, but zimmerman would only learn that by monitoring his activities in a lawful way
nothing has been shown to prove zimmerman acted unlawfully

If I was a black guy walking in my own neighborhood and some guy gives me the third degree I might tell him to GFY and that would be proper under the circumstances.

FROM THE INFORMATION I HAVE SEEN

Zimmerman created this problem and is the main reason why a young man who had a right to be where he was and had a RIGHT TO BE FREE FROM BEING HASSLED is dead

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

what causes you to insist it is clear that zimmerman provoked the incident
are you telling us that zimmerman did not have the right to walk the same street as the kid
that it is not illegal to approach someone to ask a question - even a bold question
if the kid lost his composure and assaulted zimmerman, then zimmerman did have the right to defend himself against such physical aggression


how do you know this
he behaved in such a way as to cause zimmerman to be alarmed to the point to report that to the police via 911 call
it could have been a false alarm, but zimmerman would only learn that by monitoring his activities in a lawful way
nothing has been shown to prove zimmerman acted unlawfully

Well lets assess the debate. Evidence is compounding rather greatly. You've decided to say that you won't listen to any of the evidence presented so therefore the kid was guilty of provoking Zimmerman and got shot as a consequence.

Without your acceptance of any of the evidence, I'd say that this debate is kind of over... right?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Of course, now MSNBC is translating this is to listing all the awful states that don't have enough gun-law restrictions - wanting the laws to be changed so that everyone has a duty to run away from any conflict. If someone comes up to you and your wife siting in a crowded a restaurant to demands "get yourself and your whore out of our chairs," they want you and your wife to be required to get up and run away - and if not, you and your wife are the criminals.

This case, according to MSNBC, also proves why efforts to stop illegal immigration is murderously evil, that Republicans are all racists, and that whenever a black man is shot by a non-black it is self evidently a race hate crime.

Obviously, the only way to stop this from happening again is to repeal all concealed handgun permits and outlaw private handgun ownership except people certified by the government as a registered security personnel or police officer. That is what is now proven in this case about Zimmerman.

That and all police officers and prosecutors throughout Florida are racists.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I'm sorry, but NO. that's not how it works.

My ears and eyes are wide open for an alternative.

It wasn't an accident therefore the shooter either shot him illegally or he was illegally provoked by an attack.

What's your alternative to this?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Of course, now MSNBC is translating this is to listing all the awful states that don't have enough gun-law restrictions - wanting the laws to be changed so that everyone has a duty to run away from any conflict. If someone comes up to you and your wife siting in a crowded a restaurant to "get yourself and your whore out of our chairs," they want you and your wife to be required to get up and run away - and if not, you and your wife are criminals.

anti gun nuts use even righteous shootings to argue for more gun restrictions. anti gun nuts use varicose veins, bad breath, overweight elephants, low mileage cars, and purple ice cream as an excuse to ban guns.


and when you create a confrontation its hard to argue you needed to shoot an unarmed kid

now if the boy had come up and cold cocked this guy as he walked down the street for no reason different story. But this guy sounds like a bully who wanted to push someone around

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

what causes you to insist it is clear that zimmerman provoked the incident
are you telling us that zimmerman did not have the right to walk the same street as the kid
that it is not illegal to approach someone to ask a question - even a bold question
if the kid lost his composure and assaulted zimmerman, then zimmerman did have the right to defend himself against such physical aggression

Given Zimmerman was following the kid AND given Zimmerman was the one to approach him AND given Trayvon was about one home away from his own AND given Trayvon was trying to get away from Zimmerman AND given Zimmerman was the aggressor AND given Zimmerman was a self-proclaimed vigilante AND given there is evidence that Zimmerman may have lied about being jumped from behind, it's not a far stretch that Zimmerman provoked the incident.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Accordingly, MSNBC has told us who is THE most dangerous, murderous white racist in the United States today. It is comedian Lewis Black. No white guy uses the F word more than he does. He MUST Be banned from television immediately to stop his continued advocacy of race hate crimes.

Yet this goes back to the extreme racist comment by Clint Eastwood's "Make my day, Punk" statement. As MSNB points out, "punk" is a code word for "coon" which is a code word for, well, you know, the N word that Zimmerman didn't use but that's what "punk" meant as everyone knows, which the word behind every "beep out" of a tape.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Of course, now MSNBC is translating this is to listing all the awful states that don't have enough gun-law restrictions - wanting the laws to be changed so that everyone has a duty to run away from any conflict. If someone comes up to you and your wife siting in a crowded a restaurant to demands "get yourself and your whore out of our chairs," they want you and your wife to be required to get up and run away - and if not, you and your wife are the criminals.

This case, according to MSNBC, also proves why efforts to stop illegal immigration is murderously evil, that Republicans are all racists, and that whenever a black man is shot by a non-black it is self evidently a race hate crime.

Obviously, the only way to stop this from happening again is to repeal all concealed handgun permits and outlaw private handgun ownership except people certified by the government as a registered security personnel or police officer. That is what is now proven in this case about Zimmerman.

That and all police officers and prosecutors throughout Florida are racists.

We get it. You don't like MSNBC. May I suggest you change the channel?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

We get it. You don't like MSNBC. May I suggest you change the channel?

Actually, I saw this a great comedy. I mean the level of desperation to make a point Lawrence wanted to make. Even his own people were getting nervous and hedging on how he was quoting them. "You heard coon, didn't you?" And they would answer, 'er uh, hmmm" and mumble off in some other direction.

 

[ric27]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

People within a community generally know who lives there.

Zimmerman made a bad choice after another

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Given Zimmerman was following the kid AND given Zimmerman was the one to approach him AND given Trayvon was about one home away from his own AND given Trayvon was trying to get away from Zimmerman AND given Zimmerman was the aggressor AND given Zimmerman was a self-proclaimed vigilante AND given there is evidence that Zimmerman may have lied about being jumped from behind, it's not a far stretch that Zimmerman provoked the incident.

I'll accept that as a likelihood, sure. I'll also accept that he is a paranoid, irresponsible, emotionally and psychologically unstable asshole in that context too. Even that Zimmerman provoked the incident. But convictably guilty of murder? That ain't enough.

What I want to know is, exactly:

1. Whose voice in the background is it on the 2nd 911 call and what is said
2. What are the non-gunshot injuries, contusions etc on both Martin's body and on Zimmerman
3. The range and tragectory of the gunshot
4. Also, I'd like to see a tape of Zimmerman's statement, if he gave one.

Then I could express my opinion on whether he is criminally guilty of manslaughter/murder or not under Florida law. I already agree he is an ignorant, paranoid, irrational, emotionally and psychologically disturbed creep and asshole. But being none of those is criminal.

It is starting to seem like they brought in the feds to maybe have a civil rights violation criminal case if there is no murder case under Florida law. That is sort of a catch all law that asserts a hate crime - but with what constitutes the crime being relatively abstract. They also might be trying to set up Zimmerman for a federal charge of lying to the FBI or obstructing justice if he won't cooperate - a way sometimes around the right against self incrimination. Democrats do control the Justice Department and Democrats have declared Zimmerman guilty of a murderous hate crime.

Technically, a secret executive order could be signed declaring him a domestic terrorist under the Patriot act, for which he could be sent to Gitmo, or even ordered summarily executed by NSA or presidential orders. Or he might commit suicide or be killed by another inmate if taken into custody. Or as simple as someone in jail swears he confessed to deliberately murdering Martin.

There are all sorts of ways to get Zimmerman if they really want to.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I'll accept that as a likelihood, sure. I'll also accept that he is a paranoid, irresponsible, emotionally and psychologically unstable asshole in that context too. Even that Zimmerman provoked the incident. But convictably guilty? That ain't enough.

I'm not so sure about that. Zimmerman has to prove his life was in danger, and I believe, he has to prove he did not cause the incident.

Of course if the law doesn't even arrest him or charge him, as has been the case so far, than he doesn't have to.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...now if the boy had come up and cold cocked this guy as he walked down the street for no reason different story. But this guy sounds like a bully who wanted to push someone around

honestly, on the first 911 tape, he sounds like a coward looking to be a hero.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I'll accept that as a likelihood, sure. I'll also accept that he is a paranoid, irresponsible, emotionally and psychologically unstable asshole in that context too. Even that Zimmerman provoked the incident. But convictably guilty of murder? That ain't enough.

What I want to know is, exactly:

1. Whose voice in the background is it on the 2nd 911 call and what is said
2. What are the non-gunshot injuries, contusions etc on both Martin's body and on Zimmerman
3. The range and tragectory of the gunshot
4. Also, I'd like to see a tape of Zimmerman's statement, if he gave one.

Then I could express my opinion on whether he is criminally guilty of manslaughter/murder or not under Florida law. I already agree he is an ignorant, paranoid, irrational, emotionally and psychologically disturbed creep and asshole. But being none of those is criminal.

It is starting to seem like they brought in the feds to maybe have a civil rights violation criminal case if there is no murder case under Florida law. That is sort of a catch all law that asserts a hate crime - but with what constitutes the crime being relatively abstract. They also might be trying to set up Zimmerman for a federal charge of lying to the FBI or obstructing justice if he won't cooperate - a way sometimes around the right against self incrimination. Democrats do control the Justice Department and Democrats have declared Zimmerman guilty of a murderous hate crime.

Technically, a secret executive order could be signed declaring him a domestic terrorist under the Patriot act, for which he could be sent to Gitmo, or even ordered summarily executed by NSA or presidential orders.

What witness' testimony will you accept as evidence?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I'm not so sure about that. Zimmerman has to prove his life was in danger, and I believe, he has to prove he did not cause the incident.

Of course if the law doesn't even arrest him or charge him, as has been the case so far, than he doesn't have to.

Not really. The prosecution would have to prove he wasn't in danger. That he caused the incident is just a factor to consider, nothing more.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What witness' testimony will you accept as evidence?

I told you the evidence I want.

Eye witnesses, candidly, are one of the LEAST reliable witnesses often. For example, the 13 year old CLEARLY said 'someone" was lying on the ground and "someone" was calling for help, but then continued to put himself into the victim-potential of Martin because of race. I bet if they ask that 13 year old in the correct ways, that 13 year old will come to be certain that someone is Martin.

I don't discount eye witnesses, but people have been found guilty on the word of over half a dozen witnesses - later proven not-guilty and the witnesses all recanting their certainty - after the person spent a lot of time in prison.

THE best evidence is physical, forensic evidence. Unless altered or mishandled, it doesn't lie. It doesn't have the confusions people have in memory. Its not biase. It can be bribed or motivated towards desired outcomes. Forensic evidence is facts - and often absolute facts.

Just think HOW MANY members here misrepresent what others post - possibly believing their misrepresentation is accurate - and call each other liars? There are some "eye witnesses" that I would always 100% discount. For example, relatives of the person they are testifying for. A jailhouse snitch offered a deal. Anything said by a person who's story is better than the first time told. Someone who only saw something momentarily from a distance. I would not convict someone solely on an officer's word.

I like hard, absolute forensic evidence. I listed the 3 sets I want to see. Then I can make my decision. All that evidence is had and only need be determined what it shows - and released publicly. Until then, people can certainly curse Zimmerman, but whether he is convictable under Florida law is unknown.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Not really. The prosecution would have to prove he wasn't in danger. That he caused the incident is just a factor to consider, nothing more.

I don't believe that is the case at all. The prosecution only needs to prove he shot and killed Martin. It's Zimmerman's defense that he did so in self-defense. I believe he has the burden to prove his defense. And if he caused the confrontation to occur, I believe that further distances himself from a valid self-defense defense. The law does not provide a murderer to plea self-defense when they are the instigator of an altercation. Especially when the instigator is armed and the victim is an unarmed minor, innocently heading home from buying candy at a convenience store.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

honestly, on the first 911 tape, he sounds like a coward looking to be a hero.

The fear in his voice actually helps him in a little way from a defense perspective.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I told you the evidence I want.

Eye witnesses, candidly, are one of the LEAST reliable witnesses often. For example, the 13 year old CLEARLY said 'someone" was lying on the ground and "someone" was calling for help, but then continued to put himself into the victim-potential of Martin because of race. I bet if they ask that 13 year old in the correct ways, that 13 year old will come to be certain that someone is Martin.

I don't discount eye witnesses, but people have been found guilty on the word of over half a dozen witnesses - later proven not-guilty and the witnesses all recanting their certainty - after the person spent a lot of time in prison.

THE best evidence is physical, forensic evidence. Unless altered or mishandled, it doesn't lie. It doesn't have the confusions people have in memory. Its not biase. It can be bribed or motivated towards desired outcomes. Forensic evidence is facts - and often absolute facts.

Just think HOW MANY members here misrepresent what others post - possibly believing their misrepresentation is accurate - and call each other liars? There are some "eye witnesses" that I would always 100% discount. For example, relatives of the person they are testifying for. A jailhouse snitch offered a deal. Anything said by a person who's story is better than the first time told. Someone who only saw something momentarily from a distance. I would not convict someone solely on an officer's word.

I like hard, absolute forensic evidence. I listed the 3 sets I want to see. Then I can make my decision. All that evidence is had and only need be determined what it shows - and released publicly. Until then, people can certainly curse Zimmerman, but whether he is convictable under Florida law is unknown.

So you'd accept the evidenced of the phone call Treyvon made to his girlfriend if it were played back to you?