Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The fear in his voice actually helps him in a little way from a defense perspective.

Where and what in that 911 call Zimmerman made did you denote as fear?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I don't believe that is the case at all. The prosecution only needs to prove he shot and killed Martin. It's Zimmerman's defense that he did so in self-defense. I believe he has the burden to prove his defense. And if he caused the confrontation to occur, I believe that further distances himself from a valid self-defense defense. The law does not provide a murderer to plea self-defense when they are the instigator of an altercation.

Sounds good but is all wrong under Florida law. All the defense would have to do at the most is show the slightest possibility, even remotely, that it possibly was self defense. Remember the Casey Anthony trial... "to the exclusion of any other possibility."

Your last sentence is just wrong as you wrongly convert instigator of the verbal confrontation to instigator of physical assault. I can institute about as much verbal confrontation as I want with someone legally. That does not give that person the right to physically assault me.

If gays charged into a Catholic church disrupting the service and throwing condoms - could the members of that church beat up those gay protestors? Could those members beat those protestors to death for which not one of the protestors could use a weapon even to save their lives? You are claiming that they can. Right? The gay protestors clearly "instigated" the altercation and against peaceful, law abiding citizens exercising their religious freedom.

I've personally faced this issue when detained, questioned and even arrested for assault and aggravated assault on occasions in my notably violent past. No convictions. Issues of "provocation," "instigation," ie "who started it" and what was a reasonable response is not simplistic. Now, on the other side too.

You cannot confuse verbal conflict instigation with physical violence instigation. Actually, I think most on the forum more than I do think that verbal provocation does NOT justify a violent retaliation. Personally, I more believe verbal confrontation can justify violent retaliation (one reason I often was talking to cops questing me), but generally the law does not allow it.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Sounds good but is all wrong under Florida law. All the defense would have to do at the most is show the slightest possibility, even remotely, that it possibly was self defense. Remember the Casey Anthony trial... "to the exclusion of any other possibility."

Your last sentence is just wrong as you wrongly convert instigator of the verbal confrontation to instigator of physical assault. I can institute about as much verbal confrontation as I want with someone legally. That does not give that person the right to physically assault me.

If gays charged into a Catholic church disrupting the service and throwing condoms - could the members of that church beat up those gay protestors? Could those members beat those protestors to death for which not one of the protestors could use a weapon even to save their lives? You are claiming that they can. Right? The gay protestors clearly "instigated" the altercation and against peaceful, law abiding citizens exercising their religious freedom.

I've personally faced this issue when detained, questioned and even arrested for assault and aggravated assault on occasions in my notably violent past. No convictions. Issues of "provocation," "instigation," ie "who started it" and what was a reasonable response is not simplistic. Now, on the other side too.

You cannot confuse verbal conflict instigation with physical violence instigation. Actually, I think most on the forum more than I do think that verbal provocation does NOT justify a violent retaliation. Personally, I more believe verbal confrontation can justify violent retaliation (one reason I often was talking to cops questing me), but generally the law does not allow it.

Witness testimony may not be all that reliable but several corroborating witness testimonies are and such witness testimony is going to bury Zimmerman.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Where and what in that 911 call Zimmerman made did you denote as fear?

His tembling voice.

This is contrasted to the Texas shooting by an old white guy of two black burglars leaving his neighbor's house, shooting one in the two in the back - that old man's comments very glib.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

His tembling voice.

This is contrasted to the Texas shooting by an old white guy of two black burglars leaving his neighbor's house, shooting one in the two in the back - that old man's comments very glib.

I didn't hear any voice trembling at all.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Witness testimony may not be all that reliable but several corroborating witness testimonies are and such witness testimony is going to bury Zimmerman.

What witnesses? A 13 year old who saw "someone" and heard "someone?" Or the 16 year old girl giving her opinion on how she interpreted what she says Martin said? That opinion wouldn't even be allowed - only her recount of what she says he said. Someone was following Martin. She said run, but he said he wouldn't. Martin asked why Zimmerman was following him and Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing - then the phone went dead.
A witness who says Zimmerman said he "messed up."

Are there any other witnesses?

The ONLY thing that can bury Zimmerman are (AGAIN):
1. What Zimmerman said
2. Whose voice is in the background - then shot fired - and what that voice was saying.
3. The injuries (or not) on the body of Martin and on Zimmerman.
4. The range and trajectory of the gunshot.

EVERYTHING else is only circumstantial to those.

That you can't stand to wait for the actually indisputable forensic evidence is just impatience on your part. It's like your declaring guilt in a rape case where no condom was used - incapable of waiting for the absolutism of a dna test of the rape kit.

If forensics shows he's guilty, he'll be convicted.

Where I differ is I realize that my wanting him to be provably guilty doesn't make it so. It takes evidence, not opinion, conjecture, how I wish law was, and psycho-analysing him, Martin and others. Since there IS exact forensic evidence that tells absolute facts, I want to see it first before I make myself judge, jury and executioner because I really don't like the guy or what he did.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

i didn't hear any voice trembling at all.

ok.........

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

REMEMBER THE CASEY ANTONY FORIDA CASE?

This matter is EXACTLY where that one was at. Fortunately, there IS forensic evidence to develop in this case.

In the Anthony case, like this one, all the media talking head commentators, political types and public spokespersons were raging and absolutely 100% certain she was guilty - even protestors surrounding her house. EVERYONE was certain EXCEPT 1.) attorneys who had been prosecutors and 2.) Florida defense attorneys who stunning declared the prosecutors don't have a chance.

That is what is happening now. All the comentators, political types and public spokespersons all declare Zimmerman absolutely guilty and raging why are the police delaying (like they did also in the Antony case). ALL BUT FLORIDA prosecutors and defense lawyers, all who say "I don't know enough about the case to say he can be proven guilty.

FLORIDA LAW.
It does not allow physical violence against verbal harassment or provocation - thus Zimmerman did NOT provoke violence by stalking and confronting Martin. BUT it allows a person to use force, including deadly force, if that person in his own mind believed he faced imminent serious bodily injury - which would be so if Martin had slugged Zimmerman, knocked him down and kicked him. Zimmerman did not break any law following and confronting Martin. Neither Zimmerman or Martin had a duty to retreat.

But here's the real kicker and it was in the Anthony case - Under Florida law for a murder conviction the jury must unanimously find 1.) the person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (some states say "to a degree of moral certainty) - which thus allows "doubt," but that doubt must be reasonable and 2. (somewhat unique to Florida) TO THE EXCLUSION OF ANY OTHER POSSIBILITIES.

THAT is why Florida defense attorneys said there was no chance against Casey Anthony. Since, so far, NO ONE actually saw the shooting, while a person could use circumstantial evidence (motives, words, tangential witnesses etc) to maybe decide the only REASONABLE conclusion is that Zimmerman shot Martin with no reason at the moment to fear assault or injury - the jury also has to find that it is absolutely impossible that anything but what the prosecutor claims is what happened. If it was at all possible that Martin threatened to harm Zimmerman, hit Zimmerman, threw the first punch, said he had a knife in his pocket, any and all imaginable other possibilities other than metaphysical realties, all those others aremust be absolutely in every way 100% impossible. IF ANY ALTERNATIVE SENARIO is even REMOTELY possible, the jury MUST find Zimmerman not guilty. .

Like in the Anthony case, the Defendant does NOT have to prove ANY other senario was possible. The prosecutor must prove they are all impossible - literally any conceivable other senario is absolutely 100% impossible - or the Defendant walks free.

LIKE IT OR NOT, that's the law. The Florida Supreme Court currently is working on rewriting that law with the Bar Association, but they can not make those changes retroactive.

FORTUNATELY, unlike in the Anthony case, there IS FORENSIC EVIDENCE that MAY establish CERTAINTY TO THE EXCLUSION OF ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY. Predictably and wisely, the police or DA are not going to act until they have that forensic evidence examination results. They have to do their job under the law, not public opinion or their own opinions.

Most on this forum are making their opinions on bits and pieces coming from raging media talking heads. I'm looking at it from a Florida law enforcement perspective. Particularly a murder case with no statute of limitations, you don't take it to trial and often don't even arrest until have a strong enough case under law (not public opinion) to likely win that trial under FLORIDA laws.

 

[herenow1]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It was stated that Zimmerman made over 40 non- emergency related 911 calls last yr. He made so many calls he was like the boy who cried wolf and the cops found it hard to take him seriously. He even called if the neighbors left the garage door open. Evidence points to this guy being unstable. I can't believe people are defending a lunatic!!!!

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I have not read one person here defending him. However, its not a crime to be a lunatic.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I have not read one person here defending him. However, its not a crime to be a lunatic.

.... And yet - this lunatic committed a crime. Can we please stop avoiding the obvious now?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

.... And yet - this lunatic committed a crime. Can we please stop avoiding the obvious now?

Prove it under Florida law.

 

[herenow1]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You can play devils advocate all you want or downplay the veracity of this story,or offer extreme hypothetical scenarios all you want. The rest of us will see it for what it is. The evidence is as plain as day for anyone with common sense, and basic human instincts. We see it as a case of cold blooded murder. I know not everyone has the ability( or sympathy)to try and imagine what this boy felt the last minutes of his life or what his parents are going through.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You can play devils advocate all you want or downplay the veracity of this story,or offer extreme hypothetical scenarios all you want. The rest of us will see it for what it is. The evidence is as plain as day for anyone with common sense, and basic human instincts. We see it as a case of cold blooded murder. I know not everyone has the ability( or sympathy)to try and imagine what this boy felt the last minutes of his life or what his parents are going through.

Probably then the police should just pick him up and then shot him while trying to escape to see that justice is done because extreme hypothetical scenarios are an absolute defense to a murder charge in Florida and given it is intolerable to wait for actual indisputable forensic evidence. Just gun him down for justice' sake.

Wait, I haven't read he's in hiding. Why don't you go do it?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The prosecutor yielding to mob mentality instead of law is why murdered little Calee Anthony got no justice. IF the prosecutor had added the potential charges of felony endangerment of a child, child abuse, and abandonment of a child the jury could have found her guilty and sent her to prison for decades. INSTEAD, the prosecutor let the media and people like you just "know" Casey Anthony would be found guilty on "common sense" about the obvious.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

.... BUT it allows a person to use force, including deadly force, if that person in his own mind believed he faced imminent serious bodily injury - which would be so if Martin had slugged Zimmerman, knocked him down and kicked him.

That is soooo not true. You cannot use deadly force because someone punches you. If you could, there would be few fist fights because everyone would shoot the person who slugged them and claim deadly force was a necessary response.

As far as being knocked down and kicked, where have you read that that occurred? I have not seen that.

Zimmerman did not break any law following and confronting Martin. Neither Zimmerman or Martin had a duty to retreat.

Zimmerman, with his aggressive confrontation, provoked Martin. Martin was within his right to resort to a physical, but non-lethal defense if he believed Zimmerman posed an imminent threat to him. You cannot provoke someone into hitting you and then kill them and then rely on the 'Stand Your Ground' protection to keep your ass out of jail. This is not the wild wild west.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

That is soooo not true. You cannot use deadly force because someone punches you. If you could, there would be few fist fights because everyone would shoot the person who slugged them and claim deadly force was a necessary response.

As far as being knocked down and kicked, where have you read that that occurred? I have not seen that.


Zimmerman, with his aggressive confrontation, provoked Martin. Martin was within his right to resort to a physical, but non-lethal defense if he believed Zimmerman posed an imminent threat to him. You cannot provoke someone into hitting you and then kill them and then rely on the 'Stand Your Ground' protection to keep your ass out of jail. This is not the wild wild west.

No, this is Florida. But what I am reading much of on this thread sounds like an Old West vigilantes in a lynch mob.

Zimmerman had a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head and wet grass on his back. YOU, the PROSECUTOR, have to prove that Martin did NOT assault Zimmermen. Prove it. Prove that it is absolutely impossible that Martin did. A verbal confrontation does not justify violence. YOU, the PROSECUTOR, MUST prove that Martin believed for good reason Zimmerman was a threat - prove Martin absolutely believed nothing else as an impossibility. At the same time you have to prove that bloody Zimmerman at no point had reason to fear serious injury - and absolutely could not have believed anything else at any moment.

Nice saying of "you can't use deadly force because someone punches you." Oh Really? Quote THAT Florida statute? Or that even ONE punch is necessary.

I'm curious.... why do you think prosecutors and defense attorneys are all saying this is a very questionable case AT THIS POINT and prosecutors are explaining it is very common for a case of 1 person shot dead and the other person walking away from it because they can't get a conviction under current laws. All the attorneys certified and practicing in criminal law are idiots, it is you and media talking heads who are the legal experts?

Why were all the talking heads and protestors swearing Casey Anthony was guilty and Florida lawyers said the case sucks - and little Calee is dead and Anthony walked away? Why is that?

All the general theories of law in which you interlink "aggressive confrontation" with justified violence by Martin but not by Zimmerman, then assert all that means there is no conceivable scenario other than one you imagine has anything to do with actual Florida law?

But it appears the media has you brainwashed into believing it is "stand your ground" that is the legal problem in their editorizing against such laws. That is not the challenge of the case, that is just paid actors giving orations against Republican states' gun laws. The problem is they cannot prove a case other than by circumstantial evidence showing probably what happened and even beyond a reasonable doubt, but not to the exclusion of any other conceivably possible scenario.

Why does almost everyone on this thread so intensely despise the upcoming indisputable forensic evidence? Are you afraid you won't like what it shows so declare it should be disregarded and thrown away? Find him guilty quick before it can be worked? Want Zimmerman held in jail for a year or two until trial in case he's found not guilty?

 

[justabubba]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

If I was a black guy walking in my own neighborhood and some guy gives me the third degree I might tell him to GFY and that would be proper under the circumstances.

it may very well have happened in this incident as we do not know who said what to whom
based on the presentation of the girl friend, the two got into a verbal exchange which then appeared to escalate into a physical assault
but by which upon the other
zimmerman insists it was he who was assaulted
i ask you again counselor, what do you have which shows that was not the case

FROM THE INFORMATION I HAVE SEEN

Zimmerman created this problem and is the main reason why a young man who had a right to be where he was and had a RIGHT TO BE FREE FROM BEING HASSLED is dead

[emphasis added by bubba]
zimmerman followed and questioned someone he believed to be engaged in criminal activity - as is known from the 911 recording
none of us has a right to be free from being hassled. but i am receptive to your showing me such a "right" in the Constitution or other document
if you are in a public space and someone approaches you, asking questions, you have no obligation to answer them, or even stop and interact with them. but neither do you have the right to assault the person who is asking the questions - no matter how reprehensible those questions may be found
so, i ask again counselor - what do you find which evidences zimmerman was NOT physically assaulted by the kid as he has claimed preceded his use of lethal force in self defense
i ask that to one who professes to practice law and has experience before the courts in matters of the use of weapons

 

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

More light on this Zimmerman guy.

Zimmerman was talking with his friend, became profane and pushed an agent who tried to escort him away, the report said. Authorities said he was arrested after a short struggle.

Charged with resisting arrest without violence, he avoided conviction by entering a pretrial-diversion program, something common for first-time offenders.

A month later, court records show, a woman filed a petition for an injunction against Zimmerman, citing domestic violence. It’s unclear what led to the petition, but Zimmerman responded by filing a petition of his own the following day.

Maybe he isn't cut out neighborhood watch material.

Who is Florida neighborhood crime watch volunteer George Zimmerman? - BostonHerald.com

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Bottom line, lets let LE investigate and the courts sort this out. Like Loughner, don't you think this guy deserves his day in court. Innocent till proven guilty. Has that changed or is it only for cases that some of you think it applies?

I think that Martin's family would be very happy to see Zimmerman get his day in court.

That's kind of the point of contention here--Zimmerman isn't set to have a day in court. imho, ymmv

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

if you are told by dispatch that you no longer have freedom of speech do you comply with such attempt to squelch your rights as a citizen
similarly, zimmerman was not prevented from going anywhere any other citizen could go

This is specious because Zimmerman wasn't merely walking down the street. He was doing more than that. Zimmerman was packing heat and pursuing someone.

Zimemrman had every right to walk down the street in the rain.
It was not his place take his gun and pursue Martin.

 

[mac]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The fear in his voice actually helps him in a little way from a defense perspective.

I don't hear fear. He seems quite calm. The only thing in his voice I heard was him gasping for air as he ran after Tray.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, this is Florida. But what I am reading much of on this thread sounds like an Old West vigilantes in a lynch mob.

Zimmerman had a bloody nose, blood on the back of his head and wet grass on his back. YOU, the PROSECUTOR, have to prove that Martin did NOT assault Zimmermen. Prove it. Prove that it is absolutely impossible that Martin did. A verbal confrontation does not justify violence. YOU, the PROSECUTOR, MUST prove that Martin believed for good reason Zimmerman was a threat - prove Martin absolutely believed nothing else as an impossibility. At the same time you have to prove that bloody Zimmerman at no point had reason to fear serious injury - and absolutely could not have believed anything else at any moment.

Nice saying of "you can't use deadly force because someone punches you." Oh Really? Quote THAT Florida statute? Or that even ONE punch is necessary.

Title XIVI Chapter 776.041

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.​

Now while there is the caveat included that provoking someone doesn't allow them to kill you, especially if you are unsuccessfully trying to remove yourself from the fight, the meaning of that clause is that you cannot provoke a fight and then just kill your target because the punch you for provoking the fight.

Zimmerman hunted this kid down. He followed him by car and then by foot. He was the aggressor, not Trayvon.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Trayvon Martin Killing: 911 Tape Reveals Possible Racial Slur by Neighborhood Watchman

Trayvon Martin Killing: 911 Tape Reveals Possible Racial Slur by Neighborhood Watchman - Yahoo!

On a tape of one of Zimmerman's 911 calls the night of the shooting, he is heard saying under his breath what sounds like "f**ing coons." Seconds later he confronted Martin and after a brief scuffle shot him dead.
Zimmerman claimed self defense, and was not charged with any crime.
It's the latest in a series of possible police missteps uncovered by ABC News.
The Sanford Police Department has come under withering criticism for failing to reach out to Martin's girlfriend, who was talking to the teen on his cell phone and heard the altercation with Zimmerman take place.

The evidence keeps mounting.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I have not read one person here defending him. However, its not a crime to be a lunatic.

That's all you and justabubba are doing.