Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[Blue_State]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Who initiated physical contact is secondary (and immaterial) to whom initiated the confrontation, which was clearly Zimmerman.

Also, who shot an unarmed teen.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

All of you demanding he be immediately arrested and charged are - in fact - demanding he be given a lawyer, a professional defense team and access to essentially all witnesses, investigation information and case file information.

So to interprete Hauery, Jamesrage and all the rest of you are really raging is "GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER! GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER!"

Because that is what must happen if he is arrested/charged. So, you are convinced his court appointed defense lawyer will instruct him to tell the police everything they want to hear and to sign a confession?

PLEASE EXPLAIN, EXACTLY, WHY YOU ARE DEMANDING ZIMMERMAN HAVE A DEFENSE LAWYER AT ANY INTERVIEW, WHY YOU DEMAND A DEFENSE LAWYER'S INVESTIGATOR BE INTERVIEWING AND SEARCH OUT WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENSE AND TO CROSS-INTERROGATE WITNESSES HOPING FOR CONFUSED OR CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS BY THEM, AND TO BE ABLE TO LEARN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THE POLICE, FBI AND PROSECUTOR IS DOING ON THE CASE - INCLUDING SEEING THE ENTIRE CASE FILE AND THE CONTACT INFORMATION FOR EVERY WITNESS?

Why are you so intensely determined to give Zimmerman a Defense lawyer team and all that comes with that?/ That is what happens as soon as he is charged.

I SAY don't arrest him until all the Forensic evidence is in, all witnesses statements locked down, Zimmerman has given as long and as many recorded statements as possible. THEN, if it merits arresting him, do so and THEN give him a lawyer.

You are, in actuality, FAR FAR FAR more on Zimmerman's defensive side than I am. Until he is charged he doesn't get a free defense lawyer and defense team. You are DEMANDING he is given one.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What is your evidence that Zimmerman was the physical violence aggressor?

Understand exactly what you are claim is "law." You are claiming if you approached someone with angry words at the person, you have legally provoked the other person to beat the crap out of you because you provoked the violence in your words. If somehow we knew each other, you saw me, and rushed across the street furiously telling me what I posted about this is all F...ed up!" and that I'm an "asshole" - following me saying "Hey! I'm talking to you" - at that point you have provoked me into slugging you in the face and knock you to the ground stomping on your head - all of which is your fault.

Your legal interpretation is that mere words justify using violence against someone. So assaulting angry protestors REALLY IS legal afterall - or so you say.


Do you really believe that words justify violence - and as a matter of law? That IS what you are saying.

The Florida law I cited states that one may not provoke themselves into being attacked and then resort to deadly force in in response to such an attack (unless they are facing a lethal). It does not specify what "provoke" means, though it doesn't rule out a verbal provocation; leading me to believe that a non-physical verbal attack could qualify, especially if such a verbal provocaton was perceived to be an imminent threat.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

All of you demanding he be immediately arrested and charged are - in fact - demanding he be given a lawyer.

So to interprete Hauery, Jamesrage and all the rest of you are really raging is "GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER! GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER!"

Because that is what must happen if he is arrested/charged. So, you are convinced his court appointed defense lawyer will instruct him to tell the police everything they want to hear and to sign a confession?

PLEASE EXPLAIN, EXACTLY, WHY YOU ARE DEMANDING ZIMMERMAN HAVE A DEFENSE LAWYER AT ANY INTERVIEW, THAT HAVE A DEFENSE LAWYER'S INVESTIGATOR INTERVIEWING AND SEARCH OUT WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENSE AND TO CROSS-INTERROGATE WITNESSES, AND TO BE ABLE TO LEARN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THE POLICE, FBI AND PROSECUTOR IS DOING ON THE CASE - INCLUDING SEEING THE ENTIRE CASE FILE?

Why are you so intensely determined to give Zimmerman a Defense lawyer team and all that comes with that?

I SAY don't arrest him until all the Forensic evidence is in, all witnesses statements locked down, Zimmerman has given as long and as many recorded statements as possible. THEN, if it merits arresting him, do so and THEN give him a lawyer.

You are, in actuality, FAR FAR FAR more on Zimmerman's side than I am.

You are the one "raging". You have been raging every angle of this you can think of. Do you have a personal relationship with Zimmerman or something?

I really doubt a public defender is going to be much help to him. From the sounds of it, insanity is Zimmerman's best defense.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Even given the the absurd notion that one can't be arrested on the spot with a literal smoking gun, people are outraged because it appears no investigation leading to a possible prosecution took place. A witnesses story was changed and the operator thought Zimmerman sounded intoxicated but no blood tests were performed. Even playing it by your book, it seems you're more upset that apparent police incompetence or perhaps a poor piece of legislation are being held up to public scrutiny.

To summarise, people want a proper investigation and will probably be appeased by one now even if there wasn't one at the time. And a "Not Guilty" is acceptable if that's what a court finds.

It may seem that way. Actually, I don't want the case blown if there is one. The relevant "law" already is currently being changed by the Florida Supreme Court in talks with the Bar Association since the Casey Anthony case.

The "stand your ground" law may have little to no relevance to this case. That is not the real problem for the prosecution, though may be one of them. Since the real problems are unique to Florida, and since the media is national, they are 100% ignoring the rest serious problem to instead pick a national gun-rights and self-defense political issue and talking instead about it.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

All of you demanding he be immediately arrested and charged are - in fact - demanding he be given a lawyer, a professional defense team and access to essentially all witnesses, investigation information and case file information.

So to interprete Hauery, Jamesrage and all the rest of you are really raging is "GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER! GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER!"

Because that is what must happen if he is arrested/charged. So, you are convinced his court appointed defense lawyer will instruct him to tell the police everything they want to hear and to sign a confession?

PLEASE EXPLAIN, EXACTLY, WHY YOU ARE DEMANDING ZIMMERMAN HAVE A DEFENSE LAWYER AT ANY INTERVIEW, WHY YOU DEMAND A DEFENSE LAWYER'S INVESTIGATOR BE INTERVIEWING AND SEARCH OUT WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENSE AND TO CROSS-INTERROGATE WITNESSES HOPING FOR CONFUSED OR CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS BY THEM, AND TO BE ABLE TO LEARN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THE POLICE, FBI AND PROSECUTOR IS DOING ON THE CASE - INCLUDING SEEING THE ENTIRE CASE FILE AND THE CONTACT INFORMATION FOR EVERY WITNESS?

Why are you so intensely determined to give Zimmerman a Defense lawyer team and all that comes with that?/ That is what happens as soon as he is charged.

I SAY don't arrest him until all the Forensic evidence is in, all witnesses statements locked down, Zimmerman has given as long and as many recorded statements as possible. THEN, if it merits arresting him, do so and THEN give him a lawyer.

You are, in actuality, FAR FAR FAR more on Zimmerman's defensive side than I am. Until he is charged he doesn't get a free defense lawyer and defense team. You are DEMANDING he is given one.

I think he should be arrested and being given the opportunity to defend himself is part of that. This was never in question for me nor anybody else, I think. This is desperate post #3 from you.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You are the one "raging". You have been raging every angle of this you can think of. Do you have a personal relationship with Zimmerman or something?

I really doubt a public defender is going to be much help to him. From the sounds of it, insanity is Zimmerman's best defense.

Your's is just a mob mentality at someone who is calling for rule of law and proper procedure.

Do you have a relationship with Casey Anthony? You got your way on that one. Is Casey living with you now?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I think he should be arrested and being given the opportunity to defend himself is part of that. This was never in question for me nor anybody else, I think. This is desperate post #3 from you.

I think the desperate ones are those infuriated that the media talking heads aren't in total control and furious at how rule of law works.

At least you admit you want him - the only actual witness at the moment of the shooting - to shut up and have a Defense team running cover for him. I don't.

So who is on his side is you, not me.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Your's is just a mob mentality at someone who is calling for rule of law and proper procedure.

Do you have a relationship with Casey Anthony? You got your way on that one. Is Casey living with you now?

OMG Casey Anthony has nothing to do with this.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Your's is just a mob mentality at someone who is calling for rule of law and proper procedure.

Do you have a relationship with Casey Anthony? You got your way on that one.

Here you go:

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You are the one "raging". You have been raging every angle of this you can think of. Do you have a personal relationship with Zimmerman or something?

I really doubt a public defender is going to be much help to him. From the sounds of it, insanity is Zimmerman's best defense.

His defense is shut up and have a lawyer speak for him, to challenge the legitimacy of the investigation, to create doubts, to obtain contradictions from witnesses, to know what the police really have and who their witnesses are, challenge forensic evidence as being tampered with or mishandled as part of an investigation prejudiced by public opinion, and to establish every imaginable scenario that may have happened even if remotely so.

An insanity defense would not work.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Here you go:

Any other ways you want to help out Zimmerman?

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

His defense is shut up and have a lawyer speak for him, to challenge the legitimacy of the investigation, to create doubts, to obtain contradictions from witnesses, to know what the police really have and who their witnesses are, challenge forensic evidence as being tampered with or mishandled as part of an investigation prejudiced by public opinion, and to establish every imaginable scenario that may have happened even if remotely so.

An insanity defense would not work.

Just how long do they need to investigate? :lol:

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

The Florida law I cited states that one may not provoke themselves into being attacked and then resort to deadly force in in response to such an attack (unless they are facing a lethal). It does not specify what "provoke" means, though it doesn't rule out a verbal provocation; leading me to believe that a non-physical verbal attack could qualify, especially if such a verbal provocaton was perceived to be an imminent threat.

Yes, that is what you think. I'm not really sure why you think that helps the prosecution though. So, if as Zimmerman had said on the 911 call, Martin had again turned towards Zimmerman, glaring at him, as Zimmerman was stepping back, and said something Zimmerman "precieved to be an imminent threat" - not even did something such as punching and kicking Zimmerman even when he is on the ground, in YOUR interpretation Martin was the instigator for his approaching a retreating Zimmerman with "verbal provocative words."

Prove that didn't happen that way. Not just assume it didn't or declare it obvious by circumstantial prior statements about what happened prior to this?

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Any other ways you want to help out Zimmerman?

I'd hand him a bag of Skittles and an iced tea.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I think the desperate ones are those infuriated that the media talking heads aren't in total control and furious at how rule of law works.

At least you admit you want him - the only actual witness at the moment of the shooting - to shut up and have a Defense team running cover for him. I don't.

So who is on his side is you, not me.

Desperate post #972.

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

zimmerman called him a coon?

I am not sure. He might have said that, he might have said ****ing fools.

Zimmerman heard calling Trayvon Martin "Coon" on 911 Call - YouTube

2:20 ish is where you can hear him mumble.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

All of you demanding he be immediately arrested and charged are - in fact - demanding he be given a lawyer, a professional defense team and access to essentially all witnesses, investigation information and case file information.

So to interprete Hauery, Jamesrage and all the rest of you are really raging is "GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER! GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER!"

Because that is what must happen if he is arrested/charged. So, you are convinced his court appointed defense lawyer will instruct him to tell the police everything they want to hear and to sign a confession?

PLEASE EXPLAIN, EXACTLY, WHY YOU ARE DEMANDING ZIMMERMAN HAVE A DEFENSE LAWYER AT ANY INTERVIEW, WHY YOU DEMAND A DEFENSE LAWYER'S INVESTIGATOR BE INTERVIEWING AND SEARCH OUT WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENSE AND TO CROSS-INTERROGATE WITNESSES HOPING FOR CONFUSED OR CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS BY THEM, AND TO BE ABLE TO LEARN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THE POLICE, FBI AND PROSECUTOR IS DOING ON THE CASE - INCLUDING SEEING THE ENTIRE CASE FILE AND THE CONTACT INFORMATION FOR EVERY WITNESS?

Why are you so intensely determined to give Zimmerman a Defense lawyer team and all that comes with that?/ That is what happens as soon as he is charged.

I SAY don't arrest him until all the Forensic evidence is in, all witnesses statements locked down, Zimmerman has given as long and as many recorded statements as possible. THEN, if it merits arresting him, do so and THEN give him a lawyer.

You are, in actuality, FAR FAR FAR more on Zimmerman's defensive side than I am. Until he is charged he doesn't get a free defense lawyer and defense team. You are DEMANDING he is given one.

As someone with personal experience with free public defenders, there is little "danger" to him having one. He won't get a "team", he'll get one lawyer. Who has umpteen other clients.

There's a REASON a rich kid with a kilo of coke gets FAR less time than a poor kid with a kilo of coke who has a public defender.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Who initiated physical contact is secondary (and immaterial) to whom initiated the confrontation, which was clearly Zimmerman.

wrong

you come up to me and ask me questions i do not want to answer i can walk away, ignore you, tell you to screw off. but significantly, i do not assault you physically, giving you cause to need to defend yourself

you come up to me and ask me questions and then i assault you physically because i do not like that you dared confront me with your questions, then the person i assaulted may very well defend himself ... and if he is carrying, with lethal force

the question about who initiated the physical assault is key to determining which of these guys was at fault

unfortunately, we only have one surviving eyewitness. he says that he was attacked and responded in self defense

i keep looking to those of you who believe differently to explain why that statement by zimmerman - that he acted in self defense - is not possible

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

i keep looking to those of you who believe differently to explain why that statement by zimmerman - that he acted in self defense - is not possible

I answered you. You willfully ignored it.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Just how long do they need to investigate? :lol:

They need the forensics results. Whose voice and what said on second 911 call by witness and the autopsy for injuries to Martin's body, distance of the shot and angle. They need to have spoken to every reasonable possible witness - including to insure some surprise witness for Zimmerman doesn't show up at trial - and if Zimmerman is stupidly still talking to police they need to keep him talking until nothing left to obtain from him.

Whether or not it was shoddy police work before, they need to do it right now, not to please public outcries for swift summary action.

This is not a domestic violence case where police just tend to arrest anyone accused by anyone of violence. Murder cases without a living witness to the shooting or murder cases without a witness to the murder - such as Casey Anthony - are VERY difficult to win under Florida laws. That also is what criminal trial lawyers on TV are saying about this case.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

wrong

you come up to me and ask me questions i do not want to answer i can walk away, ignore you, tell you to screw off. but significantly, i do not assault you physically, giving you cause to need to defend yourself

you come up to me and ask me questions and then i assault you physically because i do not like that you dared confront me with your questions, then the person i assaulted may very well defend himself ... and if he is carrying, with lethal force

the question about who initiated the physical assault is key to determining which of these guys was at fault

unfortunately, we only have one surviving eyewitness. he says that he was attacked and responded in self defense

i keep looking to those of you who believe differently to explain why that statement by zimmerman - that he acted in self defense - is not possible

I don't know about you but I doubt there are many 17 year old B-Students who'd start an altercation with a man weighing 100 pounds more than them and holding a gun .

 

[Kreton]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

i keep looking to those of you who believe differently to explain why that statement by zimmerman - that he acted in self defense - is not possible

He chased someone down for walking down his street armed with a gun and looking for a confrontation. Martin was not a threat to him at a very bare minimum until Zimmerman choose to hunt Martin down.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

All of you demanding he be immediately arrested and charged are - in fact - demanding he be given a lawyer, a professional defense team and access to essentially all witnesses, investigation information and case file information.

So to interprete Hauery, Jamesrage and all the rest of you are really raging is "GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER! GIVE ZIMMERMAN A LAWYER!"

Because that is what must happen if he is arrested/charged. So, you are convinced his court appointed defense lawyer will instruct him to tell the police everything they want to hear and to sign a confession?

PLEASE EXPLAIN, EXACTLY, WHY YOU ARE DEMANDING ZIMMERMAN HAVE A DEFENSE LAWYER AT ANY INTERVIEW, WHY YOU DEMAND A DEFENSE LAWYER'S INVESTIGATOR BE INTERVIEWING AND SEARCH OUT WITNESSES FOR THE DEFENSE AND TO CROSS-INTERROGATE WITNESSES HOPING FOR CONFUSED OR CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS BY THEM, AND TO BE ABLE TO LEARN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THE POLICE, FBI AND PROSECUTOR IS DOING ON THE CASE - INCLUDING SEEING THE ENTIRE CASE FILE AND THE CONTACT INFORMATION FOR EVERY WITNESS?

Why are you so intensely determined to give Zimmerman a Defense lawyer team and all that comes with that?/ That is what happens as soon as he is charged.

I SAY don't arrest him until all the Forensic evidence is in, all witnesses statements locked down, Zimmerman has given as long and as many recorded statements as possible. THEN, if it merits arresting him, do so and THEN give him a lawyer.

You are, in actuality, FAR FAR FAR more on Zimmerman's defensive side than I am. Until he is charged he doesn't get a free defense lawyer and defense team. You are DEMANDING he is given one.

If I were him, I would have lawyered up immediately even had I, like Zimmerman, not been arrested. But that's just me.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

He chased someone down for walking down his street armed with a gun and looking for a confrontation. Martin was not a threat to him at a very bare minimum until Zimmerman choose to hunt Martin down.

that does not explain why zimmerman's statement, that he acted in self defense after being physically assaulted by the kid, could not have been possible