Ending Public Schools [W:961]

[Andalublue]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The entire idea is laughable really. You can believe in whatever you want but to use the word liberty and equality of opportunity in the same sentence makes little sense.

Only to faux libertarians like yourself.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Only to faux libertarians like yourself.

Only to someone clueless would they claim liberty is upheld by maintaining equality of opportunity. How exactly do you think they uphold this measurement of yours? Is it perhaps by taking away liberty? No, couldn't be. Could it?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Ending Public Schools

No offense, but the public doesn't even understand people with disabilities and doesn't care for our rights. They put up a fight when we wanted to have disabled kids in the classroom with their peers, and they put up a fight when disabled children were receiving accommodations, and they put up a fight when the mentally retarded wanted to live in the community and not in mental hospitals.

Well, I certainly can't say I agree with you here, Fiddy. (Speaking from an Illinois perspective.)

One thing I do agree with is that the school system is far too eager to take kids out of regular classrooms and label them as needing more intensive care. And they do this because they get higher reimbursements for these kids. Parents need to fight more for the right of their children to stay in regular classrooms rather than simply rolling over the system's desire to label them for life.

As for putting up a fight to keep the mentally handicapped out of neighborhoods? In Illinois, nothing could be further from the truth. First, Illinois provides large subsidies to in-home caretakers (parents) to keep their child in the home. My friend receives a yearly subsidy of $15,000 from the state in order to keep her 25-year-old son at home. In addition to that, there are group homes -- where that $15K is then paid to the home -- that allow those higher-functioning adults to live somewhat on their own.

Schools? As I said, they are all too eager to put students into specical classes. The pay-off is tremendous. If a child has a good advocate, even finding a "better program" out of area is possible -- with the school district picking up the cab fare for the ride to and from. Or, sans that, step vans that pick them up at the front door.

My sister was a teacher's aide in one of these classrooms. Every student had a laptop. Even though some of them could not speak, hold up their heads, or use it in any way whatsoever.

I'd say, here in Illinois, at least, the public school system is doing everything possible for those with physical and/or developmental disabilities.

 

[greeneel]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Why not? It's the way that schools in this country operated for a very long time.

I hear that Tigger so true. In my opinion its going to take everyone's help to get some kind of headway to change the education system and put it where we see it improving somehow. E.g the teachers need to get with principals, principals need to get with the parents, the parents need to get with their Governor/mayor etc and everyone comes together to discuss improvements that could be made regarding that particular school.

Every school won't have the same problems but it least you would know what the problems are that they're facing on a school lvl.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Everybody has special needs. Businesses offer a dazzling array of goods and services to meet everyone's special needs. No one has ordinary and average needs for anything.

If the citizens in a community believe it is worth spending a billion dollars of taxpayer money so one or two people can feel good about themselves then let them go for it. There is no reason to prevent everyone from buying the education they want and can afford.

Why do you believe that everyone must pay for a few? Why do you believe that is a fundamental truth?

It is disingenuous to claim everyone has special needs when it is understood exactly what kind of kids we are talking about and how specific and special their educational needs are. You must not know people or experienced yourself the scarcity of affordable resources for special needs kids. There is no dazzling array to meet the needs of these kids and their families.

Please try to keep this respectful. Deriding special needs children, who are special needs owing to no fault of their own, is despicable.

It doesn't take billions and the money spent is not to make them, "feel good about themselves". I don't need to say that because the vast majority logically realize that.

Why do I believe society should contribute to the education of a few? Because those children will achieve some level of self-sufficiency, enabling them to contribute to the community and not rely on welfare to live, which is, the last time I checked, a conservative value.

You have conflated that to be the fundamental truth I of which I was speaking.

By the merit of the designation, "special needs", means there are special and not ordinary average needs, which of course means there are less special needs children in a given community making them, by default, less lucrative to private enterprise. I don't think that those you are addressing, Fiddy, have even considered that fundamental truth.

That is the obvious and fundamental truth. Special needs children are not a lucrative market.

 

[longview]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I am not in favor of shutting down all public schools,
but I do think some competition in the way of vouchers might help.
If the product the public schools are selling is good, people will still use it, If the product
is not good, people can vote with their voucher and move their child to somewhere else.
If enrollment falls, the school needs to look at why their product is viewed poorly.
Choices and freedom almost always improve things.
The special needs children are already funded at a higher rate, so the voucher amount would be bigger.
We are already paying more per child than just about anywhere else in the world.
Maybe it is time we look at what we get for our money.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

No it doesn't.

Of course is does. It's a simple question of revenue. Less dollars, less profit.

Why does this matter to you? Why would you drag down those with ability? Do you believe educational experiences are equal today? Do you buy the same clothes from the same stores as the poor? If not, why not? Shouldn't their clothes-buying experiences be equal to yours?

This matters to me a citizen of my community. Those who are educated have a greater potential to contribute to it.

Why do you assume I want to drag anyone down? In any given school, the poor kids have the same educational opportunities, are exposed to the same curriculum, as the wealthy kids those public schools. Privatizing will more than likely effect that as lower income children are funneled into bargain basement schools with a limited curriculum, taught by those who will accept bargain basement salaries.

If you believe this is a serious concern you could easily form a charity to pay for educational experiences for special needs children. Why do you set the bar so low as to compel everyone to the average of the poor and the special needs children?

Because special needs children don't deserve the support of their community and should just go on welfare instead because that's a higher bar for everyone?

School districts, local governments are going broke.
In what was is buying educational experiences any different from buying a movie? You can watch at home, you can go to an inexpensive theater or you can go to the high-end theater? Should we only offer up one type of experience? That would make us all equal wouldn't it?

Education is not an experience. It is not a movie. That is a ludicrous comparison. It is a foundation on which people build their lives.

I regret that I have to stop now to go to work. But I am a maker not a taker. So go I must.

Your condescension is noted.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

In your life experiences have the poor been excluded from buying things? Ditto special needs children? Why do you believe there is less profit incentive? Businesses intentionally segment their markets in order to differentiate their offerings based on price, timeliness, quality and a host of other attributes. Businesses do this to serve their diverse markets at the best possible profit. Why would this be different than every other area where one fills another's need for a price?

Things are not education.

There is less profit incentive because low income families have less to spend and teaching the special needs children cost more than average.

Johnny's family can only afford to pay $2000 a year on his education. Billy's family can afford $10,000. By the time costs are extracted from those fees, who makes the school/business more money?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Things are not education.

There is less profit incentive because low income families have less to spend and teaching the special needs children cost more than average.

Johnny's family can only afford to pay $2000 a year on his education. Billy's family can afford $10,000. By the time costs are extracted from those fees, who makes the school/business more money?

Education is a service, and there are MANY private service companies, many are now used by the gov't to build and maintain roads. Add a voucher of 80% of the current cost of Johnny's/Billy's public education to your example and try that again. You also seem to ASSUME that the private education cost per student is higher than that of the public education, which is not the case, even though private schools must pay property taxes that public schools do not.

 

[Fiddytree]

Well, I certainly can't say I agree with you here, Fiddy. (Speaking from an Illinois perspective.)

One thing I do agree with is that the school system is far too eager to take kids out of regular classrooms and label them as needing more intensive care. And they do this because they get higher reimbursements for these kids. Parents need to fight more for the right of their children to stay in regular classrooms rather than simply rolling over the system's desire to label them for life.

As for putting up a fight to keep the mentally handicapped out of neighborhoods? In Illinois, nothing could be further from the truth. First, Illinois provides large subsidies to in-home caretakers (parents) to keep their child in the home. My friend receives a yearly subsidy of $15,000 from the state in order to keep her 25-year-old son at home. In addition to that, there are group homes -- where that $15K is then paid to the home -- that allow those higher-functioning adults to live somewhat on their own.

Schools? As I said, they are all too eager to put students into specical classes. The pay-off is tremendous. If a child has a good advocate, even finding a "better program" out of area is possible -- with the school district picking up the cab fare for the ride to and from. Or, sans that, step vans that pick them up at the front door.

My sister was a teacher's aide in one of these classrooms. Every student had a laptop. Even though some of them could not speak, hold up their heads, or use it in any way whatsoever.

I'd say, here in Illinois, at least, the public school system is doing everything possible for those with physical and/or developmental disabilities.

Yes many communities and schools are doing fabulous things for people with disabilities and much progress has been made,however, mister's appeal to the majority ignores some very real and recent threats. I'm discussing disability history of the late 20th century. When the schools were going to mainstream you had man communities where parents were picketing the schools demanding that special education kids not be in the same room as other regular students. The fear was that the presence of anyone in special education would dumb down their kids. Luckily that wasn't the call of the masses to make, because it was public policy established by government.

With regard to state mental hospitals closing during the 1960s and 1970/, yes, again, the community was fearful of mentally retarded and people with mental health issues being in their midst.

When disability activists were working with congress to develop and pass the Americans with Disabilities Act, the disability organizations went to great lengths to avoid selling the bill to the public because of the enormous misconceptions people had. They were better able to deal with politicians than they were with the public. Only after the business community raised hell about the undue hardship and lawsuit city did the public seem to care, and care they did-for business.

In other areas of disability and mental health the main conception is that disability is an awful thing and they side with the medical model where disabilities need to be diagnosed, treated, cured, and prevented. The largest voice the public cares about for autism is whether or not vaccinations cause it, or they listen to folks like Autism Speaks, an organization that claims that what is needed is a cure, making advertisements which make autistic kids look like people that need to be feared.

Certainly not a focus that promotes acceptance, anti-discrimination, and giving them the tools necessary to become as successful and independent as possible. It's just something we have come to accept. We don't trust one given group to have dominion over our rights.

 

[American]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The public school system fails to prepare our population to compete with students from many other countries, or with the skills that American industry needs. What I don't understand about the biggest public ed supporters, is why aren't they the biggest criticizers of the current system. You'd think they would want this system to be the shining example for the world of how a publicly funded program can be better than any other alternative.

But no, they support mediocre teachers, curricula, administration and student outcomes. They want to just spend more money to prop up teacher union pay scales and worthless curricula, that leave our children stupid and almost too incompetent to ask a customer if they want to super-size it. If you liberals are so keen on this system, let me see you make it better than every other program in the world. First you raise the teacher qualification standards to minimum master degree, and a thorough reform of how teachers teach and how they're evaluated. Then the curriculum which is free of political agendas. You bring in industry and local businesses to find out what they need, AND YOU LISTEN.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The public school system fails to prepare our population to compete with students from many other countries, or with the skills that American industry needs. What I don't understand about the biggest public ed supporters, is why aren't they the biggest criticizers of the current system. You'd think they would want this system to be the shining example for the world of how a publicly funded program can be better than any other alternative.

But no, they support mediocre teachers, curricula, administration and student outcomes. They want to just spend more money to prop up teacher union pay scales and worthless curricula, that leave our children stupid and almost too incompetent to ask a customer if they want to super-size it. If you liberals are so keen on this system, let me see you make it better than every other program in the world. First you raise the teacher qualification standards to minimum master degree, and a thorough reform of how teachers teach and how they're evaluated. Then the curriculum which is free of political agendas. You bring in industry and local businesses to find out what they need, AND YOU LISTEN.

Are those students in other countries that are out testing our students going to privately owned schools?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Are those students in other countries that are out testing our students going to privately owned schools?

most of those other countries don't have compulsory education where the public system has to try to teach every unmotivated retard between the ages of 6-16

 

[Aberration]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Things are not education.

There is less profit incentive because low income families have less to spend and teaching the special needs children cost more than average.

Johnny's family can only afford to pay $2000 a year on his education. Billy's family can afford $10,000. By the time costs are extracted from those fees, who makes the school/business more money?

So the solution is to take from Billy's family until they can only afford a $5000 school and you can send 3 more kids to school with Johnny?

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Education is a service, and there are MANY private service companies, many are now used by the gov't to build and maintain roads. Add a voucher of 80% of the current cost of Johnny's/Billy's public education to your example and try that again. You also seem to ASSUME that the private education cost per student is higher than that of the public education, which is not the case, even though private schools must pay property taxes that public schools do not.

Education is not equivalent to building roads, missiles or any of the 10's of thousands government contractors do.

The OP has not discussed vouchers, at least with me. He has talked tax relief, implying that the responsibility to educate will fall on exclusively on the parents and taxes would no longer be involved.

Which leads to move government involvement in private schools. You can't have money for tax dollars and remain private.

Vouchers are different than privatizing.

The cost of private education will include profit, property and business taxes. That may not offset costs, I don't know how much you are assuming could be saved because of course, teachers unions and pension plans would be eliminated, but that does bring to mind 401 (k)'s as another offset.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Education is a service that requires the customer to do most the work. A student, different than a customer, doesn't walk in and buy education. he buys the right to follow a plan, to study and work with feedback from someone who has a plan and knows the subject matter. Too many forget how different this is from other services. In education, you're hiring something more like a coach than a service where the out come is certain for all. Some will do well, some will fail, and some will do average (most).

 

[lpast]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The only way to do it would be with vouchers from the government, at least here in Illinois. I'm not exactly sure of the %, but I'm thinking 50% or slightly more of my property taxes go towards education. I have no children in the system. So the government would, of course, continue to be the pocketbook. Odds the government would just hand out money with no strings? Slim. To. None.

The for profit schools will want thousands over what the vouchers are...the school fees will rise every year and the vouchers will not...IT cannot and will not work ever...on a large scale

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Education is not equivalent to building roads, missiles or any of the 10's of thousands government contractors do.

The OP has not discussed vouchers, at least with me. He has talked tax relief, implying that the responsibility to educate will fall on exclusively on the parents and taxes would no longer be involved.



Vouchers are different than privatizing.

The cost of private education will include profit, property and business taxes. That may not offset costs, I don't know how much you are assuming could be saved because of course, teachers unions and pension plans would be eliminated, but that does bring to mind 401 (k)'s as another offset.

I have maintained that vouchers should not exceed 80% of the current per pupil spending for their normally assigned public school. This type of voucher plan allows the students/parents a choice but also saves tax money FOR SURE. The responsibility is then ONLY on the parents that choose to "opt out" of the public school system. If those students/parents get "taken" by a scam in their private education choice then they may sue ONLY that private school. I see vouchers (at 80% of NORMAL cost) as a win/win for the public schools, the tax payers and the students. The OP is not limitting (or even defining) how the funding would work IMHO, but that is not my problem. Whether the private schools choose to use "traditional" teachers is entirely their business, as far as I am concerned. Vouchers are not different than privatized since they give the parents the OPTION to use private education but also with PART of the tax money that would have been spent on their children otherwise. I look forward to this type of a voucher system being given a chance to work.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Education is a service that requires the customer to do most the work. A student, different than a customer, doesn't walk in and buy education. he buys the right to follow a plan, to study and work with feedback from someone who has a plan and knows the subject matter. Too many forget how different this is from other services. In education, you're hiring something more like a coach than a service where the out come is certain for all. Some will do well, some will fail, and some will do average (most).

I can't see how that makes a difference.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Ending Public Schools

basically, any voucher system will turn private schools into public schools and we will have the same problems and will have accomplished nothing. back to my cooking example...the problem is not the oven...it's what you put into the oven.

garbage in garbage out

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I can't see how that makes a difference.

It makes a huge difference, as responsibility for success or failure is shared at best.

 

[longview]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Education is a service that requires the customer to do most the work. A student, different than a customer, doesn't walk in and buy education. he buys the right to follow a plan, to study and work with feedback from someone who has a plan and knows the subject matter. Too many forget how different this is from other services. In education, you're hiring something more like a coach than a service where the out come is certain for all. Some will do well, some will fail, and some will do average (most).

I agree with you, but nothing in your statement says the coach must be from a tax payer funded monopoly.
Shouldn't your valuable tax dollars pay for the best coach you can get.
What would be wrong with every family being given a $9000 voucher per child that could be used at any school?
It might also help to separate the taxing authority from the delivery service.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I agree with you, but nothing in your statement says the coach must be from a tax payer funded monopoly.
Shouldn't your valuable tax dollars pay for the best coach you can get.
What would be wrong with every family being given a $9000 voucher per child that could be used at any school?
It might also help to separate the taxing authority from the delivery service.

Ummm, where would the $9,000 come from? There is no way to separate the taxing authority from the delivery service. Either way? Public/Private? The money is going to come from you and I and be funneled through the US Government.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I agree with you, but nothing in your statement says the coach must be from a tax payer funded monopoly.
Shouldn't your valuable tax dollars pay for the best coach you can get.
What would be wrong with every family being given a $9000 voucher per child that could be used at any school?
It might also help to separate the taxing authority from the delivery service.

You can do that now. We have private schools. However, if you give money, you set up the same situation many object to in health care, government running private education. Also, that which seems better, because they weed out low performing students, really don't offer anything different in the classroom. So, when you move them to the private school, you just move the problem and those schools either won't take the low performers (which they'll likely have to refuse the money) or they see their school look more like the public schools. After all, other than weeding out, nothing different happens in the classroom.

If you believe we're better with an educated populace than with one that has only educated wealthy people, one way or another, public education remain. I'm not sure if getting rid of private education all together (and moving government money into private schools does this more than what conservatives object to in health care) really helps much. Much of this is based on the incorrect assumption that privates schools are doing something different that is better.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Ending Public Schools

It makes a huge difference, as responsibility for success or failure is shared at best.

What? In what way is that even important?